Do you believe in God? Simple question

[BABY J]

Damn God has a SERIOUS ego problem.

"I'm God. Let me create some things. I'll then create some other things to ensure that those things live... ohhhh... 85 years or so. I'd let them live longer, but shit I get tired of the same things stroking my ego. I need new things to be born so that they can stroke it as well. During that time on this rock, those things that I created MUST tell me that I'm the shit and praise me. And if those fuckers don't - I'll kill 'em. Why?

B/c I'm GOD bitch!!"

Makes sense to me.

[trini_gsr]

Damn God has a SERIOUS ego problem.

Makes sense to me.

lol. you just figuring this out?

[BABY J]

^^ Oh I've known it since I was 10. LOL

[sport_122]

My mind is open should something occur to prove the existence of God but until I find that evidence, I can't just believe He/She/It exists.

I guess I just believe that this evidence is already here, but I can respect your views.

If you don't mind, I'm curious as to your answers on these questions. If they don't apply to your concept of God, just say so.

1. What motivates an all powerful being to do anything?
2. Why would you choose to believe in an all powerful benevolent god as apposed to an unfathomably powerful alien who has merely created the universe as an experiment?
3. Do people have free will? If so, why would God give us free only to punish us for making choices He doesn't approve of?

Great questions...

1. Depends on the character that you believe that being has. I believe that God by definition has to do certain things to maintain His own integrity. Some of these things include anger, jealousy and other emotion type things that we would consider to be bad characteristics, but are justified in the context of which God demonstrates. I believe that there is more to creation than just the universe as we currently understand it. but I'd like to put forward the thought that God is not God if he allows people to act outside of his law, or if he is okay with people worshiping and uplifting other deities above him. these two things under mind the Godhood of God. If he falters on these rules he demonstrates that he is not God at all because he has relinqushed authority to another. Think about parents that you see who relinquish there authority to their children. the kids become the authority unto themselves and the parent has to fight to regain it. This is demonstrated all over the place.

2. Because I don't see reasonable evidence to assume that the universe is designed by the types of aliens that fly around in saucers...even though I believe they are very real, I don't believe that a community of aliens would be exempt from explaining their origins. But the simple answer is that there is no evidence for that...unless you want to call God an alien because he does not originate on earth. But there is evidence that suggests, by theorists that extra terrestrial beings acknowledge a higher presence...but the UFO stuff is a thread that is waiting for BabyJ to get started...I would love to talk about that because it is very intriguing to me and I believe that our biblical history has evidence of extra terrestrial life visiting earth.

3) ppl do have free will. i don't think it is a matter of God punishing us per se. i think it boils down to the universal laws of action and reaction. the short answer is, the universe is designed to function according to God's will - physically and spiritually. if you CHOOSE to operate outside of these parameters, then just like anything else, those actions have consequences. this doesn't take into account the random sh!t that happens to everybody, good or bad. this is a subject that's debated a lot.

yeah we sort of agree on the other questions but not this one.

3. I don't believe people have free will. This is deeper than I can go, but two free wills cannot exist in this case. As soon as the two wills oppose one another then freedom is no longer for one or both of those wills. So the philosophical answer is no. Based on my worldview, my will cannot trump that of God therefore it cannot be free. I can only do that which is allowed based on the will of God. My will is subject to another therefore I cannot have a free will. I do not believe that I can act outside of his will. Even though I have the ability to make choices, the options on the table are limited. They are limited to the revelation of the universe that has provided me. I will not choose to do things that I have no knowledge or awareness of. ***Think of a multiple choice question where you can choose A,B,C, or D, but you don't have the ability to write in your answer. You demonstrate the ability to choose freely, but your options are limited based on what has been provided to you. I wrote more about this in a previous post in this thread.

[trini_gsr]

1. Depends on the character that you believe that being has. I believe that God by definition has to do certain things to maintain His own integrity. Some of these things include anger, jealousy and other emotion type things that we would consider to be bad characteristics, but are justified in the context of which God demonstrates. I believe that there is more to creation than just the universe as we currently understand it. but I'd like to put forward the thought that God is not God if he allows people to act outside of his law, or if he is okay with people worshiping and uplifting other deities above him. these two things under mind the Godhood of God. If he falters on these rules he demonstrates that he is not God at all because he has relinqushed authority to another. Think about parents that you see who relinquish there authority to their children. the kids become the authority unto themselves and the parent has to fight to regain it. This is demonstrated all over the place.

just because you choose to defy God doesn't in any way shape or form undermine his Godliness or ultimate authority. it doesn't change the nature of who or what He is. to use your example with kids, my son has the FREE WILL to defy me if he wants, but because i currently define the parameters of his immediate reality (lol), if he CHOOSES not to obey my rules, those actions come with specific consequences (being grounded, no tv, etc).

the universal law of cause and effect still works, even in his 6 yr old context. whether he wants to listen to me or not, it still doesn't change the situation (i'm his dad and I make the d@mn rules). my authority isn't remotely in question or even debatable . either he can listen to me and live pretty comfortably, or defy me and have a pretty miserable young life. it's his call. LOL.

it works the same for God. it's not a matter of whether God is "okay" with us defying Him. The parameters for how the universe operate have already been set. There's NOTHING we can do to undermine what God has established. It already IS what it IS. We've been left with the ability to choose. You can either work in harmony with it, or fight against it and make things harder on yourself. It's our choice.

3. I don't believe people have free will. This is deeper than I can go, but two free wills cannot exist in this case. As soon as the two wills oppose one another then freedom is no longer for one or both of those wills. So the philosophical answer is no. Based on my worldview, my will cannot trump that of God therefore it cannot be free. I can only do that which is allowed based on the will of God. My will is subject to another therefore I cannot have a free will. I do not believe that I can act outside of his will. Even though I have the ability to make choices, the options on the table are limited. They are limited to the revelation of the universe that has provided me. I will not choose to do things that I have no knowledge or awareness of. ***Think of a multiple choice question where you can choose A,B,C, or D, but you don't have the ability to write in your answer. You demonstrate the ability to choose freely, but your options are limited based on what has been provided to you. I wrote more about this in a previous post in this thread.

yeah, we do disagree here, but just a bit. maybe a better word for "free will" as i see it is self-determination. i agree with you, we don't have ultimate freedom because we have to work within the context of the reality we were created in. our universe operates by rules that we have no control over.

but within that context, we have the freedom to make whatever choices we want. however, the choices that we make are subject to the rules of cause and effect, so these choices come with consequences that are destined to happen as a result. free will and destiny to me are 2 sides to the same coin - they are intertwined. here's an example - everyone born is destined to die at some point, but how long you live and what you do with your life is subject to your free will.

[bu villain]

Interesting responses...maybe as a couple followup questions:

1. Why must God be all powerful instead of just unfathomably smart and powerful, although not infinitely?
2. Why can their only be one God and not two? (This question is only relevant if you do not feel God must be all powerful)

[BABY J]

3. I don't believe people have free will. This is deeper than I can go, but two free wills cannot exist in this case. As soon as the two wills oppose one another then freedom is no longer for one or both of those wills. So the philosophical answer is no. Based on my worldview, my will cannot trump that of God therefore it cannot be free. I can only do that which is allowed based on the will of God. My will is subject to another therefore I cannot have a free will. I do not believe that I can act outside of his will. Even though I have the ability to make choices, the options on the table are limited. They are limited to the revelation of the universe that has provided me. I will not choose to do things that I have no knowledge or awareness of. ***Think of a multiple choice question where you can choose A,B,C, or D, but you don't have the ability to write in your answer. You demonstrate the ability to choose freely, but your options are limited based on what has been provided to you. I wrote more about this in a previous post in this thread.

Hmmm... let's say that there is one "correct" answer.

If you choose wrong and go to hell b/c of it - what role did God play in you going to hell- he limited you to 1 right answer, and 3 wrong - yet allowed you to choose wrong. He also PROVIDED the 3 incorrect answers.

Elaborate

[IndianStig]

Damn, I was prolly fucked up when I made this thread. Hahahahaha.


God is questionable....

[trini_gsr]

Interesting responses...maybe as a couple followup questions:

1. Why must God be all powerful instead of just unfathomably smart and powerful, although not infinitely?

From our perspective, it kinda doesn't matter if God is reaaaallllly powerful but maybe not infinitely so, etc. It's so far outside of our potential that it's basically infinite by our standards anyhow.

2. Why can their only be one God and not two? (This question is only relevant if you do not feel God must be all powerful)

This is actually a good question. The Bible implies that God had an audience (of at least one) when he created the universe. There's different schools of thought on this, one of them being that God 1st created (or chose to define himself) as 3 distinct beings - Himself, Jesus, and the Holy Spirit. And these 3 beings are responsible for the creation of the universe. That's why Jesus is called God's "only begotten" son. Other religions have other ideas, and a lot of them include a plurality of Godlike beings responsible for the universe's creation.

I have a developing opinion about this though. I think that God existed in the absolute in the beginning (everything = God, and there is no basis for differentiation), and He decided to redefine His existence in the relative.

Another way to say it is before creation, the totality of existence = everything = something + nothing/void = God. God then decided to take the "something" part of himself and contain or define it against (or relative to) the "nothing" - which I think is what we currently call the Big Bang. This happened on a physical and spiritual/conscious level. The latter part being the basis for cognitive life (or souls) in the universe.

It's really abstract and probably sounds a little crazy and I haven't finished fleshing that idea out, but that's where I am right now with it . This has really been an interesting conversation...

[Schugg]

ill find out when i die. as far as im concerned the only place you go when you die is 6ft under, and everything else becomes what it was before you were born, nothing.

[sport_122]

just because you choose to defy God doesn't in any way shape or form undermine his Godliness or ultimate authority. it doesn't change the nature of who or what He is. to use your example with kids, my son has the FREE WILL to defy me if he wants, but because i currently define the parameters of his immediate reality (lol), if he CHOOSES not to obey my rules, those actions come with specific consequences (being grounded, no tv, etc).

the universal law of cause and effect still works, even in his 6 yr old context. whether he wants to listen to me or not, it still doesn't change the situation (i'm his dad and I make the d@mn rules). my authority isn't remotely in question or even debatable . either he can listen to me and live pretty comfortably, or defy me and have a pretty miserable young life. it's his call. LOL.

it works the same for God. it's not a matter of whether God is "okay" with us defying Him. The parameters for how the universe operate have already been set. There's NOTHING we can do to undermine what God has established. It already IS what it IS. We've been left with the ability to choose. You can either work in harmony with it, or fight against it and make things harder on yourself. It's our choice.



yeah, we do disagree here, but just a bit. maybe a better word for "free will" as i see it is self-determination. i agree with you, we don't have ultimate freedom because we have to work within the context of the reality we were created in. our universe operates by rules that we have no control over.

but within that context, we have the freedom to make whatever choices we want. however, the choices that we make are subject to the rules of cause and effect, so these choices come with consequences that are destined to happen as a result. free will and destiny to me are 2 sides to the same coin - they are intertwined. here's an example - everyone born is destined to die at some point, but how long you live and what you do with your life is subject to your free will.

Your actions do not affect God or his Godhood because you cannot act according to your own will, but allowing you to defy his authority is in the character of God, but doing so without penalty is NOT and this is were we see God punishing nations for their choices. Much like a law that you ignore. If the police just let you speed then your authority has trumped theirs with regards to speeding. When the character of God, as i believe is revealed to us, is demonstrated he very intent on making sure that you understand who is boss.

also if we don't have ultimate freedom then we don't have free will. If we don't have the ability to make any choice and to know and act on the infinite possibilities without any worries of consequences then we do not have free will. Our will is subjected to another authority. Whether you believe its just the laws of nature or you believe its God. We cannot do whatever we want. No matter how determined you are to do so, you cannot cut out your own organs and give them to someone else and survive. You cannot skydive without some sort of parachute, you cannot and will never make a decision to do something that you have no knowledge of. Free choices within limitations is not free will. Thats just the simplicity of it.

Hmmm... let's say that there is one "correct" answer.

If you choose wrong and go to hell b/c of it - what role did God play in you going to hell- he limited you to 1 right answer, and 3 wrong - yet allowed you to choose wrong. He also PROVIDED the 3 incorrect answers.

Elaborate

Not sure what the question is that presents the one correct answer? what is the question?

This is a very difficult question to answer for people who already don't understand the character of God (or who want to argue for his non-existence through emotional appeals) as presented in the Bible. But in short, there is much more to the question you ask than can be covered this quickly.

For instance, the whole thing about salvation. Most people think that YOU choose to be "saved". I don't. I think its grace I think that the decision is a response to things that God does in your life and in your heart. I think without him doing those things, then you will never make the choice.

I also believe there is another thing missing. The understanding that we are incapable of attaining a level of spiritual salvation without God. So in essence I believe we are on our way to hell before God intervenes and his intervention is what saves us. You understand the difference in that order?

Then we get into the mindset that some take...if God is so good then why does he send people to hell? Well because he cannot defy his own character or he defaults on his godhood.

Now to answer the question:
I believe that a just (as in- the embodiment of Justice) God created law. A part of law is justice and certainty of punishment for breaking the law. It seems like when people want to argue with the existence or character of God, they try to fault him for being who he has to be by definition. We get upset with God because he punishes and condemns us for breaking his laws. This is not the sign of a tyrannical God, it is the sign of a just God. Even now in our societies we are talking about the lack of justice. People wanting to let a child molester go, a kidnapper walks free, murderers walk out of our court system everyday and politician...well we wont even go there, but we are shocked by these things. Yet when we run across God and he does not waver in his law and in the implementation of his justice then we are shocked.

So in essence what we are seeing is not a question where god provided three wrong answers. He actually added in the ability to select a right answer when none was previously provided. Why was none provided, because the standard of Gods law is out of our reach on our own power. God created a law that is presented as the highest law. We created laws based off of his law. We cannot live up to our own standards let alone his. But maybe just maybe he didn't say I am going to give them one right answer and three wrong ones. Maybe he said "I see that they have no right answer because of the law that I gave them, I will provide them with one." This action of grace is much more in the character of the God that is seen in the Bible.



BabyJ...if I send you my number could we discuss this one by phone...its way more involved than even this, and I am always learning more about this one everyday.

Interesting responses...maybe as a couple followup questions:

1. Why must God be all powerful instead of just unfathomably smart and powerful, although not infinitely?
2. Why can their only be one God and not two? (This question is only relevant if you do not feel God must be all powerful)

You ask great questions, but the answers are more in depth than I can really go on a forum like this. This is better as a verbal discussion.
1. Because an all intelligent being without power has not ability to follow through on his planned justice. To be just and to be righteous he must have the authority in power to do so. A court with now police and no agents handing down rules of law is a powerless court. It is only when those rules and law can be enforced that the law is taken seriously. That is a sociological thing. He has to have the power to assert his authority over us and to enforce the laws which he has decreed. Again this depends on your understanding of the character of God. I don't believe God created and then stepped back. I believe he is much more involved.

Also we can only define infinite based on our universe and the understanding of how it works. There are postulations about other universes etc, but even in understanding those we are going to be limited to the understanding presented by the universe we live in. If God is the creator of this universe and all things in it then when do we come to the point of being able to define his (unfathombly-which is the same as infinite) mind? We don't because the nature of the universe is such that we live in it. We cannot understand a universe outside of it because the rules (hypothetically) would change, and we cannot get our hands around this one to make fully understood observations. By that methodology I believe it is reasonable for us to assume that the creator who is described as infinite, and non created, would hold all of the knowledge of his creation and then some as he can exist outside of it and in it at the same time.
2. For the same reason as the first. If there are two separate Gods then the authority gets split which way. Also the claims that I believe God has made about himself could not be true...in that he claims to be God of gods, Lord of lords, King of kings. If there are two separate Gods then the idea that Gods power is equally match eliminates the ability to be God as I think we all are perceiving.

[sport_122]

This is actually a good question. The Bible implies that God had an audience (of at least one) when he created the universe.

this may be a popular thought but it is very clear that the Bible says that the spirit and Christ were present at the creation. Yes they are all the same according to the Bible. but it never gives an account of the creation of Christ. Nor the creation of the holy spirit.

And both of them are in the creation account. Christ"in the beginning was the word and the word was with God and the word was God" this is referring to Christ.

also in the beginning the holy spirit covered the earth upon its creation so it was there as well.

sorry. I had to interject this because it is not Biblically accurate to say that Christ or the holy spirit was created. The Bible puts both of them there with the Father during creation.

[trini_gsr]

sorry. I had to interject this because it is not Biblically accurate to say that Christ or the holy spirit was created. The Bible puts both of them there with the Father during creation.

of the physical universe, yes. we know all 3 were present THEN. but whether God created Jesus or the Holy Spirit BEFOREHAND is definitely a debatable point. You can argue it either way (and it has been for centuries).

[trini_gsr]

Your actions do not affect God or his Godhood because you cannot act according to your own will, but allowing you to defy his authority is in the character of God, but doing so without penalty is NOT and this is were we see God punishing nations for their choices. Much like a law that you ignore. If the police just let you speed then your authority has trumped theirs with regards to speeding. When the character of God, as i believe is revealed to us, is demonstrated he very intent on making sure that you understand who is boss.

also if we don't have ultimate freedom then we don't have free will. If we don't have the ability to make any choice and to know and act on the infinite possibilities without any worries of consequences then we do not have free will. Our will is subjected to another authority. Whether you believe its just the laws of nature or you believe its God. We cannot do whatever we want. No matter how determined you are to do so, you cannot cut out your own organs and give them to someone else and survive. You cannot skydive without some sort of parachute, you cannot and will never make a decision to do something that you have no knowledge of. Free choices within limitations is not free will. Thats just the simplicity of it.

our definition of what free will is clearly differs. because i think that free will is the ability to make whatever CHOICES you want, accepting the consequences that comes as a result. You can CHOOSE to skydive without a parachute, but in doing so you realize will probably die. You can CHOOSE to speed on the hwy, but in doing so you realize that eventually you will get a ticket. A slave might not have any freedom, but yet he can still CHOOSE to defy his master, although doing so might mean punishment or death. Just because you can't control the consequences of your choice, doesn't make that choice any less yours to make. This is what it means to have free will.

[sport_122]

of the physical universe, yes. we know all 3 were present THEN. but whether God created Jesus or the Holy Spirit BEFOREHAND is definitely a debatable point. You can argue it either way (and it has been for centuries).

yes...but not based off of the Bible. the Bible does not give an account for the creation of Christ or the HS.

our definition of what free will is clearly differs. because i think that free will is the ability to make whatever CHOICES you want, accepting the consequences that comes as a result. You can CHOOSE to skydive without a parachute, but in doing so you realize will probably die. You can CHOOSE to speed on the hwy, but in doing so you realize that eventually you will get a ticket. A slave might not have any freedom, but yet he can still CHOOSE to defy his master, although doing so might mean punishment or death. Just because you can't control the consequences of your choice, doesn't make that choice any less yours to make. This is what it means to have free will.

Again, please read your own definition. You are describing choice. Having a free will is demonstrated in more than just choices. Free will leaves you open to infinite possibilities based on a full understanding and freedom from that which you wish to avoid.

Maybe if give me an example of what you would define as "not having free will" I could see your viewpoint a little different. But I really don't think that your will is purely made up of choices. Your will is made up of desire, choice, law, and your character. You cannot do all that you desire, your character is shaped by the world around you, law dictates all that we do and the way we view our universe, and choices are limited by your knowledge of the possible answers. If you don't know there is option E on the test, you will NEVER answer E therefore your choices are limited by an outside factor.

[trini_gsr]

yes...but not based off of the Bible. the Bible does not give an account for the creation of Christ or the HS.

no but it can be argued that Christ's creation is implied in the Bible. you're familiar with the arguments for and against this so I don't need to re-hash it here. obviously you're against it

Again, please read your own definition. You are describing choice. Having a free will is demonstrated in more than just choices. Free will leaves you open to infinite possibilities based on a full understanding and freedom from that which you wish to avoid.

Maybe if give me an example of what you would define as "not having free will" I could see your viewpoint a little different. But I really don't think that your will is purely made up of choices. Your will is made up of desire, choice, law, and your character. You cannot do all that you desire, your character is shaped by the world around you, law dictates all that we do and the way we view our universe, and choices are limited by your knowledge of the possible answers. If you don't know there is option E on the test, you will NEVER answer E therefore your choices are limited by an outside factor.

Yeah, it seems like we just disagree on the definition of free will. going by your definition I see why you would say we don't have free will. only God would. i would say then given this definition, that God has given us free choice to determine our destiny.

[sport_122]

no but it can be argued that Christ's creation is implied in the Bible. you're familiar with the arguments for and against this so I don't need to re-hash it here. obviously you're against it



Yeah, it seems like we just disagree on the definition of free will. going by your definition I see why you would say we don't have free will. only God would. i would say then given this definition, that God has given us free choice to determine our destiny.

Where? Im familiar with he argument, but where is it implied? Christ made claims to be God. Therefore the implied creation would fall flat on its face when looking at the references of Christ that are reflected back to creation... either way...I can agree this is something some say, but those who say it say it do so without evidence that stands up to scrutiny. The nice thing about this is that we can reference the Bible and give an exact answer to this.

I agree with you on the free will thing mostly. its just the self determined destiny that I can't really get my hands around. but that's okay. we can agree on this, and I think we both see one anothers perspective.

BTW. I am going to start another thread really quick to handle this kind of conversation so this thread can stay on topic.

[PSINXS]

i use to I guess. god was never real to me as far back as i can remember. and now the concept of prayer and god is elusive. i believe in satan more than i do god. at least evil makes more sense than this "good" thats suppose to come out of existing.

[Wurm]

negative

[JDMbabe]

i sure do, no doubt about it!

[bodhi]

You have to differentiate between the arguments for the existence of god and arguments over the validity of organized religion.

As far as god goes, the argument is moot.
God, as most people use the term, refers to an all-powerful being, omnipotent, omnipresent, omniscient, etc. The human mind is a finite thing, incapable of conceiving of the infinite, so how can one begin to prove or disprove the existence of an infinite being?
It cannot be said for certain either way, so arguing about it is pointless.

Now arguing about the validity of organized religion--christ, if people can't figure out when they are lying to themselves, how do you expect them to know when they are hearing the truth?

Man is fallible. Man wrote the bible. Man is capable of lies and deceit, and of being deceived.
Why trust in the works of man, when he tells you the work is "of god?" Everything is of god, and being of god makes the bible no more a source of truth than Beowulf, or Le Morte De Arthur, or any other myths. Take Scientology. It has fiercely dedicated followers that believe what is an obvious pack of poorly written lies put together by a failed Sci-Fi author. What kind of horseshit is that?!

[BABY J]

^^ Me likes the new guy.

[geoff]

i would agree with furry rabbit....except, the bible is not man made. it IS the Word of God given through the Holy Spirit to men to write down. the Holy Bible is valid, truth, and infallible. i say this with these points. the Holy Bible is by far the greatest work of literature ever. if one ACTUALLY takes the time to sit down and read it through you can see that it, being written by several different authors at different times can not be copied. no man in that time had the know how or the knowledge to write a book that doesnt contradict itself from begining to end and that is been relevant to each generation for thousands of years, and then come the prophecies, they are not vague in meaning and cannot be applied to any situation, they are descriptive and up to this point dead on accurate, just look at the world around you and you will see what im talking about. the mark of the beast for one, "and he caused everyman to recieve a mark to buy and sell goods" (short version) exactly where this world is headed to, an implantable chip that will hold all your information and allow you to buy and sell

[ians s14]

Yes

[sti_cham]

there is no god/ just man

[Reaper]

God has changed my life in an amazing way and is always looking out for me. I have plenty of friends that disagree, and thats their choice. Respect my beliefs and I'll respect yours. End of story.

[geoff]

at some point in time though reaper, God expects us to share the good news of salvation, to spread the gospel, and be disciples for Him. as a believer i know your probably just as disgusted with whats going on these days as i am. we have the commandment to spread the word and try and bring as many souls to salvation as we can before Jesus calls His people home

[Reaper]

at some point in time though reaper, God expects us to share the good news of salvation, to spread the gospel, and be disciples for Him. as a believer i know your probably just as disgusted with whats going on these days as i am. we have the commandment to spread the word and try and bring as many souls to salvation as we can before Jesus calls His people home

Oh, believe me I know. I have open discussions/debates with my friends of other faiths or non-believers all together. But, I by no means force Christianity down someones throat. I personally believe that's why their are more atheists in the world today..I know MANY people who grew up devout Christians but now have no faith because it was shoved in their faces. I just go about spreading the word in a different way. If you don't like it, by no means will I force it upon you. Don't get me wrong, I want everyone to go to heaven, obviously that's the point..but, in the end thats up to them and God. If they have questions, I'll answer. If they need guidance I'll do my best. I have personally bought friends "The Purpose Driven Life" when they had questions and just said "here, read this, come back to me in 40 days and we'll talk". Some turned to Christ, some are heading the right direction and others stalemated..But, non were hurt by it and just saw it as a different point of view.

I guess I just want to take a different approach on things.

[geoff]

i agree with you my friend. its just that i recently saw a study that less than 2% of american christians actually share their faith with someone. it made me sick to my stomach. most people wanna reap the benefits of being Godly but dont wanna put any work into it ya know? im meeting with a couple guys from here sometime soon and wanna do a bible study. you interested?

[Reaper]

shoot me a PM as to what day and time. I am leaving for Florida Sunday and have some graduation parties I have to go to Saturday.

[geoff]

sounds good

[TheChosenOne]

I am God... And if I'm not, somebody aint gettin there money back!

[bodhi]

i would agree with furry rabbit....except, the bible is not man made. it IS the Word of God given through the Holy Spirit to men to write down. the Holy Bible is valid, truth, and infallible. i say this with these points. the Holy Bible is by far the greatest work of literature ever. if one ACTUALLY takes the time to sit down and read it through you can see that it, being written by several different authors at different times can not be copied. no man in that time had the know how or the knowledge to write a book that doesnt contradict itself from begining to end and that is been relevant to each generation for thousands of years, and then come the prophecies, they are not vague in meaning and cannot be applied to any situation, they are descriptive and up to this point dead on accurate, just look at the world around you and you will see what im talking about. the mark of the beast for one, "and he caused everyman to recieve a mark to buy and sell goods" (short version) exactly where this world is headed to, an implantable chip that will hold all your information and allow you to buy and sell

The bible was written by flawed humans. A story to keep humans from doing horrible things to eachother. Everyone interprets the bible differently, and this is clearly obvious. It was humans attempt at passing some morals on to others. In such brutal times, the only thing that could get through to people was the fear of some horrible shit happening to them by a powerful evil monster with his own torture dungeon to keep you, and being good would be rewarded with heaven.

Passing morals onto dumbshit people is good, taking these crazy-ass magical stories as anything but a crazy-ass magical story used to instill fear apon a developing world of savages is your own poor judgement or the poor judgement of the people that forced all this bullshit into your young developing brain.

Does "God" have anything to do with the "bible god" or whatever scripture you have been raised with? Doubtful, as humans have proven themselves to be liars. We are at a point that humans can be quite good and moral without thinking you "need" to be for fear of eternal damnnation.

I am generally a good moral person that puts others before myself. I feel, whatever happens to me when I die is the same thing that happens to every human of every religion, no matter how deep their faith.

Can I prove it to be true? Of course not.
Can anyone prove it to be false? Of course not.

[BABY J]

^^ Please stop making sense. It's insulting to Christians.

[bodhi]

I can't help it, bro. It just comes naturally to me.
Personally I thought this kind of view point was shared by many people who walk around with a properly working brain... I mean no one forced me to think this way, I just "naturally" developed into it.
Process started at a very, very early age.

[Austin?]

sometime

[geoff]

furry rabbit i was not "raised" to believe in Christ or what the bible says. i found God when i was 19. i looked on my own without any outside influences.

you say it was written by flawed men. the bible was written long ago and at different points in time. if you took the time to read it you would see that it is written in such a way that its literal and figurative and has deeper meaning, people thousands of years ago just didnt have the knowledge or skills to write the way the bible was written.

i dont understand how people can say and believe without a shadow of a doubt that the bible was man made to put morals into a developing world and to control them. Thats your point of view but i disagree. my view is this, the Bible was written by men that were spoken to and moved upon by God. He did not leave His creation alone to figure things out by themselves. He gave them a manual and plan to live by, along the line mankind didnt want to live holy any more and came up with their own ideas and theories and their own selfish lives drew them away from their maker. that brings us to today. if the bible was written by men to control and instill fear then why these days does government and society as a whole write it off and push it to the backround?

men are not good by nature, we are evil and selfish creatures, you can say that your good and do good for others, but take all the things you have away and put you in a struggle or a crisis situation and we would all resort back to our primitive natures. would you lay down your life for an innocent person you have never met?

[bodhi]

furry rabbit i was not "raised" to believe in Christ or what the bible says. i found God when i was 19. i looked on my own without any outside influences.

you say it was written by flawed men. the bible was written long ago and at different points in time. if you took the time to read it you would see that it is written in such a way that its literal and figurative and has deeper meaning, people thousands of years ago just didnt have the knowledge or skills to write the way the bible was written.

i dont understand how people can say and believe without a shadow of a doubt that the bible was man made to put morals into a developing world and to control them. Thats your point of view but i disagree. my view is this, the Bible was written by men that were spoken to and moved upon by God. He did not leave His creation alone to figure things out by themselves. He gave them a manual and plan to live by, along the line mankind didnt want to live holy any more and came up with their own ideas and theories and their own selfish lives drew them away from their maker. that brings us to today. if the bible was written by men to control and instill fear then why these days does government and society as a whole write it off and push it to the backround?

men are not good by nature, we are evil and selfish creatures, you can say that your good and do good for others, but take all the things you have away and put you in a struggle or a crisis situation and we would all resort back to our primitive natures. would you lay down your life for an innocent person you have never met?

Why does "God" have to be some intelligent force that somehow cares about each and every human to you?
God most likely is an energy that is completely indifferent to our self important species. God is most likely nature on a much larger scale than our puny brains can comprehend. God is most likely an energy that keeps cycles in the universe moving.

Who the hell knows. All I know is that I am just a human, and for me to claim an obsolute knowledge about such things is very foolish.

I am human, I know nothing more than what effects me in this life. Everything else claimed by humans is merely speculation, and some poor speculation at that. Bottom line is that everyone interprets the bible to fit their agenda. Just agree that God is the universe. Your God can be an entity, your God can be whatever the hell you want, but logically it cannot be what the bible says it to be. That's just ridiculous.

[geoff]

actually logically God can be what the Bible says. God can not just be energy, the Creator of everything would have to have some logic in order to create the laws of physics that bind this universe. The Creator would have had to put a purpose to everything in order for things to be the way they are. the Creator would have had to have motivation in order to create something otherwise the law of cause and effect would not hold any value. your idea of God as an energy is no different then the big bang theory, some force or energy for no reason decided to blow up and create everything and still for no reason sustains everything.

[bu villain]

your idea of God as an energy is no different then the big bang theory, some force or energy for no reason decided to blow up and create everything and still for no reason sustains everything.

I don't think giving a completely innacurate summary of the big bang theory is going to help your cause here. Science is predicated on cause and effect, absolutely no scientist in the world believes things happen for no reason. Just because they don't know what every cause is, doesn't mean they think one doesn't exist.