Do you believe in God? Simple question

[trini_gsr]

sorry. I had to interject this because it is not Biblically accurate to say that Christ or the holy spirit was created. The Bible puts both of them there with the Father during creation.

of the physical universe, yes. we know all 3 were present THEN. but whether God created Jesus or the Holy Spirit BEFOREHAND is definitely a debatable point. You can argue it either way (and it has been for centuries).

[sport_122]

of the physical universe, yes. we know all 3 were present THEN. but whether God created Jesus or the Holy Spirit BEFOREHAND is definitely a debatable point. You can argue it either way (and it has been for centuries).

yes...but not based off of the Bible. the Bible does not give an account for the creation of Christ or the HS.

our definition of what free will is clearly differs. because i think that free will is the ability to make whatever CHOICES you want, accepting the consequences that comes as a result. You can CHOOSE to skydive without a parachute, but in doing so you realize will probably die. You can CHOOSE to speed on the hwy, but in doing so you realize that eventually you will get a ticket. A slave might not have any freedom, but yet he can still CHOOSE to defy his master, although doing so might mean punishment or death. Just because you can't control the consequences of your choice, doesn't make that choice any less yours to make. This is what it means to have free will.

Again, please read your own definition. You are describing choice. Having a free will is demonstrated in more than just choices. Free will leaves you open to infinite possibilities based on a full understanding and freedom from that which you wish to avoid.

Maybe if give me an example of what you would define as "not having free will" I could see your viewpoint a little different. But I really don't think that your will is purely made up of choices. Your will is made up of desire, choice, law, and your character. You cannot do all that you desire, your character is shaped by the world around you, law dictates all that we do and the way we view our universe, and choices are limited by your knowledge of the possible answers. If you don't know there is option E on the test, you will NEVER answer E therefore your choices are limited by an outside factor.

[trini_gsr]

yes...but not based off of the Bible. the Bible does not give an account for the creation of Christ or the HS.

no but it can be argued that Christ's creation is implied in the Bible. you're familiar with the arguments for and against this so I don't need to re-hash it here. obviously you're against it

Again, please read your own definition. You are describing choice. Having a free will is demonstrated in more than just choices. Free will leaves you open to infinite possibilities based on a full understanding and freedom from that which you wish to avoid.

Maybe if give me an example of what you would define as "not having free will" I could see your viewpoint a little different. But I really don't think that your will is purely made up of choices. Your will is made up of desire, choice, law, and your character. You cannot do all that you desire, your character is shaped by the world around you, law dictates all that we do and the way we view our universe, and choices are limited by your knowledge of the possible answers. If you don't know there is option E on the test, you will NEVER answer E therefore your choices are limited by an outside factor.

Yeah, it seems like we just disagree on the definition of free will. going by your definition I see why you would say we don't have free will. only God would. i would say then given this definition, that God has given us free choice to determine our destiny.

[sport_122]

no but it can be argued that Christ's creation is implied in the Bible. you're familiar with the arguments for and against this so I don't need to re-hash it here. obviously you're against it



Yeah, it seems like we just disagree on the definition of free will. going by your definition I see why you would say we don't have free will. only God would. i would say then given this definition, that God has given us free choice to determine our destiny.

Where? Im familiar with he argument, but where is it implied? Christ made claims to be God. Therefore the implied creation would fall flat on its face when looking at the references of Christ that are reflected back to creation... either way...I can agree this is something some say, but those who say it say it do so without evidence that stands up to scrutiny. The nice thing about this is that we can reference the Bible and give an exact answer to this.

I agree with you on the free will thing mostly. its just the self determined destiny that I can't really get my hands around. but that's okay. we can agree on this, and I think we both see one anothers perspective.

BTW. I am going to start another thread really quick to handle this kind of conversation so this thread can stay on topic.