Do you believe in God? Simple question

[geoff]

God doesnt need to change laws of nature to perform a miracle because He put those laws there for a reason. my aunt in law died in an accident when she was young. actually it was at the hospital but the accident caused it. the doctors pronounced her dead and wrote up her death certificate. about an hour went by and her father was there in the morgue praying when she came back to life. she has no brain damage nothing is wrong with her. she now has a birth certificate and death certificate. thats a miracle. as far as suffering in the world goes. each one of us will stand before God on judgement day these people that cause the suffering will be punishedEvil, pain and suffering are a part of life. God didn't promise us that we wouldn't have to endure these things, but He did promise to be there with us and strengthen us through them. We grow spiritually when we are faced with these things and find joy when we overcome them. Through our weakness we are made strong

[Incontt]

i agree with this:

That brings to mind the Stephen Roberts quote:

"I contend that we are both atheists. I just believe in one fewer god than you do. When you understand why you dismiss all the other possible gods, you will understand why I dismiss yours."

Just in the context of dismissing all other mythology, but failing to apply the same reasoning to their own belief.

God doesnt need to change laws of nature to perform a miracle because He put those laws there for a reason. my aunt in law died in an accident when she was young. actually it was at the hospital but the accident caused it. the doctors pronounced her dead and wrote up her death certificate. about an hour went by and her father was there in the morgue praying when she came back to life. she has no brain damage nothing is wrong with her. she now has a birth certificate and death certificate. thats a miracle. as far as suffering in the world goes. each one of us will stand before God on judgement day these people that cause the suffering will be punishedEvil, pain and suffering are a part of life. God didn't promise us that we wouldn't have to endure these things, but He did promise to be there with us and strengthen us through them. We grow spiritually when we are faced with these things and find joy when we overcome them. Through our weakness we are made strong

[sport_122]

i agree with this:

That brings to mind the Stephen Roberts quote:

"I contend that we are both atheists. I just believe in one fewer god than you do. When you understand why you dismiss all the other possible gods, you will understand why I dismiss yours."

Just in the context of dismissing all other mythology, but failing to apply the same reasoning to their own belief.

Do you realize that mythology is nowhere near the same thing as the christian faith. Jesus was not a myth. Even if men are worshiping Christ with wrong intent then it cannot be considered mythology because he has been historically experienced and evidence shows that he lived, died and resurrected. But you shouldn't even go there unless you are really willing to at least hear and try to understand the evidence. Even before its presented you give the perception that you are just waiting to dismiss it.

I have heard Dawkins and Hitchens use that quote as well. The major problem with it is that Richard Dawkins also says "we are somehow genetically wired to believe" In other words even this atheist biologist says that no matter how he looks at it, historically and scientifically the observations show that human beings are somehow wired to believe something. and he admits he cant explain that but because he is an atheist before he is a scientist he dismisses this anyway he can to support his book sales. Philosophy of science says that is a demonstration to us that we need to be looking at something greater to explain who and what we are because at the point that we have gone through so many evolutionary chains, and we are not shaking our ability to believe and this could easily be described if we understand that we have our existence on more than one plane.(in fact it can be argued that atheism strengthens the arguments made by believers) that

Also, to some of the people out there professing to be atheists, I think you are demonstrating what is called a denial of evidence or observational selection. Just so you know this is what the church did to bring itself into the dark ages and the inquisition...they ignored the evidence presented by some who said "Jesus, the Bible, and our very existence says this is wrong" basically anything that would tell you that you need to revisit your thought process is ignored, explain away, or mocked as if it has no place with you. So how are you better than them, because you dont have religion...but you do, atheism is your point of faith, its your world view, and everything that you learn about life is passing through this world view and you have faith that this world view is better because you have in a sense made yourself the authority or the god. I tell you now that historically this is mindset that has represented the MOST dangerous and destructive times in our histroy. When some men have denied God to the point were they have said that they are god. This has always been the first step toward cleansing and genocide.

It is never going to make your case and whenever you talk to people who have actually studied and gone through this. You have nothing because science does NOT say there is no God. History says there is one, we just have to learn to identify him, philosophy says their is one, we just have to learn to comprehend him, sociology says their is one, we just have to learn to live up to the standards that he has given us, science says there could be one, but we don't have the type of evidence required for study to prove it or in what plane he exists. Epistemology says there is one, we just don't know how he is keeping all this together....and so on. the only time you find someone who is absolutely positive that their is no God is when you find someone who ignores all of the other areas of study to focus on scientific principles that don't even say there is no God. Even the way Dawkins describes evolution is detailed in that he gives the process intention, he gives it reasoning and not randomization, if he is right that is more evidence that our universe is guided and working toward something.

But it is most disturbing that so many people could sit and act as if they have been awakened and the product was that they are so smart that they do not even need to take the texts or evidence seriously. That is a sign of the times, and I would be really careful about that because when cultures start ignoring those things that are historically at their foundation, those cultures start dying and really evil men start killing people. this is proven in history time and time again.

[geoff]

i tell you what...if i had never searched for God myself and found Him to be real then i would have been convinced by your guys' arguements. in the end it comes down to this...science will never be able to prove or disprove God with enough evidence to convince anyone. thats why its based on faith. i have faith that my God exists cuz i have had experiences with Him that i cant explain and have had my prayers answered many times. i dont have the strongest relationship with Him cuz i dont do what im supposed to but i have enough right now to know that He is real.

[geoff]

+1000000000000000000000000 sport

[zimabog]

http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=oaAdXdkiifM
http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=PqJpZOljjG8

[geoff]

this guy is an idiot. plain and simple.

[zimabog]

this guy is an idiot. plain and simple.

its satire.

[geoff]

yes i know. guys i believe in Jesus Christ and you guys dont. i respect that. plain in simple no side will win. so you guys keep searching and believing what you do and i will do the same

[Incontt]

41000 more kids died today...yaay god...you are so merciful.

[sport_122]

41000 more kids died today...yaay god...you are so merciful.

thanks for demonstrating my point.

[Incontt]

no prob...come back tomorrow and god will have sat on his hands while another 41000 of his children starved to death. i guess the christians here are just special and god answers their prayers...

[SPOOLIN]

no prob...come back tomorrow and god will have sat on his hands while another 41000 of his children starved to death. i guess the christians here are just special and god answers their prayers...

yep!

Look...We are never going to know the REAL truth to any of this arguing until someone contacts us from another universe/galaxy/dimension/planet and tells us what the fuck happened here and what caused all of this to be what it is today.

Ever seen "Mission to Mars" ??

Exactly my Point

[Ocelot]

yep!

Look...We are never going to know the REAL truth to any of this arguing until someone contacts us from another universe/galaxy/dimension/planet and tells us what the fuck happened here and what caused all of this to be what it is today.

Ever seen "Mission to Mars" ??

Exactly my Point

when that happens could you imagine the chaos that would ensue after being told by another civilization that earth is the universes F*** up? its all an accident? man that would be interesting, but then again, if another alien race believes in god and has similar teachings such as the bible, Koran, etc, (after all, the Bible and Koran and other books are pretty much the same exact thing, with the same stories, only due to language barriers the names are changed...) i would say that is proof enough that there is a God. honestly...

[yojimbo]

29 saddest pictures in the world

once you look at how people in other countries live and what they go through you start looking at things totally different.
people in the united states don't experience these kinds of things - which could be a reason why there are a lot of religious people in this country... more so than others. click on the link and you'll see just how cruel life really is.

... it's really sad and pretty fucking pathetic that the majority of those events were man-made.
if there really a god out there why can't he change the nature of society? such nasty creatures we humans are. how could we have been created by such a powerful and peaceful god yet have so many flaws within us?

[btstone]

29 saddest pictures in the world

once you look at how people in other countries live and what they go through you start looking at things totally different.
people in the united states don't experience these kinds of things - which could be a reason why there are a lot of religious people in this country... more so than others. click on the link and you'll see just how cruel life really is.

... it's really sad and pretty fucking pathetic that the majority of those events were man-made.
if there really a god out there why can't he change the nature of society? such nasty creatures we humans are. how could we have been created by such a powerful and peaceful god yet have so many flaws within us?

it is free will. all these people that say we need to believe in ourself are full of it. you just told us that man is not good. we are not peaceful. so why should we depend on ourself when we know we will not do what is right everytime. all of those man-made events that lead to sad societies are usually "God-less" societies. so even if you find God "stupid", our society isnt that bad yet.

[yojimbo]

why doesn't the stupid link work?

ehh fuck it...

The 29 Saddest Pictures In The World

Humans are best creations; they are most intelligent in all existing species on the earth. With this intelligence they ruled the world and destroyed it too. Here are the 29 pictures which tell our sad past.

9/11 Attack:




In the morning September 11, 2001, two hijacked passenger jets crashed into the Twin Towers of the World Trade Center in New York City. This was no accident, but rather a series of attacks done by suicide bombers engaged with the Al-Qaeda terrorist group.

The attacks killed all the passengers on board the hijacked planes, and took away 2,974 innocent lives at the World Trade Center. More than 90 countries lost citizens in the attack, and the stock market was closed for a week.

Abu Ghraib:





Beginning in 2004, accounts of physical, psychological, and sexual abuse, including torture, rape, sodomy, and homicide of prisoners held in the Abu Ghraib prison in Iraq (also known as Baghdad Correctional Facility) came to public attention. These acts were committed by personnel of the 372nd Military Police Company of the United States Army together with additional US governmental agencies.

An Afghan Refugee Child Hides From a Dust Storm:





Bhopal India - Methyl Isocyanate Spill:





More than 40 tons of methyl isocyanate spilled from a Union Carbide-owned pesticide factory in Bhopal, India, in 1984, killing more than 20,000 people in the world’s worst chemical disaster.

After the spill, these skulls were researched, presumably for the specific effects the gas had on the brain, at the nearby Hamidia Hospital. The chemical injured not only the people who inhaled it, but also nearby animals (at least 2,000 of them) and trees, whose leaves went yellow and fell off within days.

Twenty-five years later, with people still claiming injury from the disaster yet little corrective action having been taken, the government of India has called for a study into the long-term effects of the spill.


Biafra:





When the Igbos of eastern Nigeria declared themselves independent in 1967, Nigeria blockaded their fledgling country-Biafra. In three years of war, more than one million people died, mainly of hunger. In famine, children who lack protein often get the disease kwashiorkor, which causes their muscles to waste away and their bellies to protrude.

Boston Fire:





On July 22, 1975, Stanley J. Forman was working in the newsroom of the Boston Herald American newspaper when a police scanner picked up an emergency: “Fire on Marlborough Street!” Forman rushed to the scene, where multiple fire crews were battling an intense blaze. There was a distress call for a ladder team to the rear of the building to help a stranded woman and child. Forman followed.


Buchenwald Camp:




In 1937, the Nazis constructed Buchenwald concentration camp, near Weimar, Germany. Placed over the camp's main entrance gate, was the slogan Jedem das Seine (literally "to each his own", but figuratively "everyone gets what he deserves"). The Nazis used Buchenwald until the camp's liberation in 1945. From 1945 to 1950, the Soviet Union used the occupied camp as an NKVD special camp for Nazis and other Germans. On 6 January 1950, the Soviets handed over Buchenwald to the East German Ministry of Internal Affairs.

The SS left behind accounts of the number of prisoners and people coming to and leaving the camp, categorizing those leaving them by release, transfer, or death. These accounts are one of the sources of estimates for the number of deaths in Buchenwald. According to SS documents, 33,462 died in Buchenwald. These documents were not, however, necessarily accurate: Among those executed before 1944 many were listed as "transferred to the Gestapo". Furthermore, from 1941 forward Soviet POWs were executed in mass killings. Arriving prisoners selected for execution were not entered into the camp register and therefore were not among the 33,462 dead listed in SS documents.

Burial Of an Unknown Child:




Burial of an unknown child. This picture shows the world’s worst industrial disaster, caused by the US multinational chemical company, Union Carbide.

Burning Monk:





As a protest to the This Monk slow and unreliable reforms in Vietnam, the Buddhist monks have resorted to immolation, such as this Mahayana Buddhist monk, He burned himself alive across the outskirts of Saigon, mainly because of the harshness done by the South Vietnam government to his fellow Buddhist monks.

He was re-cremated after he burned himself; his heart meanwhile remained in one piece, and because of this he was regarded as a Bodhisattva by the other Buddhist monks and followers. His act of self-immolation increased the pressure on the Diệm administration to implement their reform laws in South Vietnam.

Bushmeat:





Animals from primates to snakes are valuable commodities in the thriving, albeit illegal, worldwide trade of bushmeat, defined as wildlife killed either by commercial or subsistence hunters. With one million tons of bushmeat taken from African forests every year, the already endangered gorilla population—a primary victim of the trade—is in dire straits.

This photo shows a gorilla family in southeast Cameroon (minus the alpha male silverback, who managed to get away) that had been slaughtered in their nests by a bushmeat hunter early one morning.


Execution Of a Viet Cong Guerrilla:





This picture was shot by Eddie Adams who won the Pulitzer prize with it. The picture shows Nguyen Ngoc Loan, South Vietnam’s national police chief executing a prisoner who was said to be a Viet Cong captain. Once again the public opinion was turned against the war.

Hector Pieterson:





Hector Pieterson an icon of 1976 Soweto uprising in apartheid South Africa. Dying Hector being carried by a fellow student. He was killed at the age of 12 when the police opened fire on protesting students. For years, June 16 stood as a symbol of resistance to the brutality of the apartheid government. Today, it is known as National Youth Day — a day on which South Africans honour young people and bring attention to their needs.


Last Jew Of Vinnitsa:





Picture from an Einsatzgruppen soldier’s personal album, labelled on the back as “Last Jew of Vinnitsa, it shows a member of Einsatzgruppe D is just about to shoot a Jewish man kneeling before a filled mass grave in Vinnitsa, Ukraine, in 1941. All 28,000 Jews from Vinnitsa and its surrounding areas were massacred at the time.

Lynching Of Young Blacks:





This is a famous picture, taken in 1930, showing the young black men accused of raping a Caucasian woman and killing her boyfriend, hanged by a mob of 10,000 white men. The mob took them by force from the county jail house. Another black man was left behind and ended up being saved from lynching. Even if lynching photos were designed to boost white supremacy, the tortured bodies and grotesquely happy crowds ended up revolting many.

Nagasaki Hiroshima Masroon Clouds:





This is the picture of the “mushroom cloud” showing the enormous quantity of energy. The first atomic bomb was released on August 6 in Hiroshima (Japan) and killed about 80,000 people. On August 9 another bomb was released above Nagasaki. The effects of the second bomb were even more devastating - 150,000 people were killed or injured. But the powerful wind, the extremely high temperature and radiation caused enormous long term damage.

Napalm Girl:





The photo shows Phan Thi Kim Phúc (a Vietnamese-Canadian) at about age nine running naked on the street after being severely burned on her back by a South Vietnamese napalm attack.

Nile Perch in Lake:





One of the 100 most invasive species in the world the Nile perch was introduced to East Africa's Lake Victoria in the 1950s, and has wreaked environmental havoc ever since. It’s illegal to possess or sell in some parts of the world, and is thought to have caused the extinction or endangering of hundreds of native species in Lake Victoria.

After the fish eliminated much of the algae-eating population, the lake became choked with algae. The perch has also increased local demand for firewood, because their higher fat content drives people to smoke them rather than dry them. Adult perch can grow to weigh more than 440 pounds, and are fierce predators that feed on insects, crustaceans, and other fish—even those of its own species.

Pictured here are dead Nile perch on a butcher table waiting for transport to local markets.


Nilgunyalcin Child Vulture:





Sudanese child being stalked by a vulture nearby. It is quite obvious that the child was starving to death, while the vulture was patiently waiting for the toddler to die so he can have a good meal.

Nobody knows what happened to the child, who crawled his way to a United Nations food camp. Photographer Kevin Carter won a Pulitzer Prize for this shocking picture, but he eventually committed suicide three months after he took the shot.

Palestine Father Saving Son:





Images from the video footage of 12-year-old Muhammad al-Durrah being shot dead in the Gaza Strip. The scene was filmed by a France 2 cameraman.

Palestinian Refugees:





World Press Photo of the Year: 1976 Françoise Demulder, France, Gamma. Beirut, Lebanon, January 1976. Palestinian refugees in the district La Quarantaine. About the image She was the first woman to win the World Press Photo, and did so on the 20th anniversary of the award. Demulder stated at the time that she hated war, but felt compelled to document how it’s always the innocent who suffer, while the powerful get richer and richer.

Palm Oil Deforestation:





Indonesia is home to the world’s third largest tropical forest, but it’s disappearing quickly. Though often illegal, the forests are cut down both for a booming pulp and paper industry as well as to clear land for oil palm plantations, which supply diverse industries from biofuel to soap to cosmetics.

Because of deforestation, Indonesia is also the world’s third largest greenhouse gas contributor, behind only the U.S. and China; after the forest is cut down, the carbon normally sequestered in the peatland soil is no longer shielded from being released into the atmosphere.


Pollution and Power Lines:





China’s economy has exploded in recent years; so has its pollution problem, leaving no aspect of the country's environment unaffected. Solid waste often lacks proper disposal, waterways have been polluted, and the air quality has plummeted, largely due to the coal-fired power plants that serve as the country's primary source of energy.

Environmental degradation has gotten so bad that the Chinese government, which doesn’t easily take—or allow—criticism, has admitted that birth defects in the country have increased as a direct result of it, particularly in coal-producing regions like the north, where this picture was taken.


Second Largest Oil Spill Ever:





The Ixtoc I exploratory well suffered a blowout on June 3, 1979, in Mexico’s Bay of Campeche, 600 miles south of Texas. The well was not brought under control until the next year, by which time 140 million gallons had spilled into the bay. The only larger spill occurred during the 1991 Gulf War, when Iraq dumped—deliberately—up to 462 million gallons of oil into the Persian Gulf.

Segregated water Fountains:





A segregated water fountain with a vastly larger and more desirable fountain for whites, and a small fountain for minorities.

Sludge Kingston Tennessee:





More than 1 billion gallons of toxic sludge were released into a Tennessee community when a dam collapsed last December, causing a massive coal-ash spill at the Kingston Fossil Plant, a coal-burning power plant owned by the Tennessee Valley Authority.

Coal ash is known to contain dangerous elements including arsenic, lead, and selenium, yet the TVA refused at first to issue any health warnings about contamination from the spill. The agency, which weeks later admitted prior leak problems at the plant, also refused initially to declare as uninhabitable the houses in the area, like the one pictured here, that were physically relocated by all the sludge.

Starving Boy:




World Press Photo of the Year: 1980 Mike Wells, United Kingdom. Karamoja district, Uganda, April 1980. Starving boy and a missionary. About the image Wells felt indignant that the same publication that sat on his picture for five months without publishing it, while people were dying, entered it into a competition. He was embarrassed to win as he never entered the competition himself, and was against winning prizes with pictures of people starving to death.

The American Bison:





A product of U.S. Army-sanctioned mass slaughter of American bison in the 1800s, these bison skulls are waiting to be ground for fertilizer, most likely in the American midwest. The slaughter was so "effective" that the population of bison in the U.S. is estimated to have dropped from around 60 million in 1800 to as few as 750 in 1890.

Tsunami Dead Bodies:





The Boxing Day Tsunami that struck Thailand in 2004 caused approximately 350,000 deaths and many more injuries.

View of Floods:




An aerial view of floods caused by Tropical Storm Hanna is seen in Gonaives, Haiti on September 3, 2008. Haiti's civil protection office said 37 of the 90 Hanna-related deaths had occurred in the port city of Gonaives.

[yojimbo]

whoa! did the link work for you? for some reason it aint for me...
i tried to copy and paste it to the post above yours but for some reason it didnt work lol

but sure god gave 'us' free will. i'm sure he didn't anticipate what would happen and how his children would live out there lives. just look at kids that die -- they aren't even old enough to know what religion really is... what sin did they commit that was so great that they had their lives taken away from em?

just admit that your god is an asshole and we'll all be happy..

[btstone]

whoa! did the link work for you? for some reason it aint for me...
i tried to copy and paste it to the post above yours but for some reason it didnt work lol

but sure god gave 'us' free will. i'm sure he didn't anticipate what would happen and how his children would live out there lives. just look at kids that die -- they aren't even old enough to know what religion really is... what sin did they commit that was so great that they had their lives taken away from em?

just admit that your god is an asshole and we'll all be happy..

im not God so there is no reason to try to convince me of what ever it is your are trying to convince. but in the Bible it does say that those with lack the understanding, babies, mentally impaired, do go to heaven. those, such as yourself, that have intelligence and still trun down the word of God suffer a different fate. thats where reading the Bible and not just taking someone els's word for it comes into play

[geoff]

once you look at how people in other countries live and what they go through you start looking at things totally different. people in the united states don't experience these kinds of things - which could be a reason why there are a lot of religious people in this country... more so than others. click on the link and you'll see just how cruel life really is. ... it's really sad and pretty fucking pathetic that the majority of those events were man-made. if there really a god out there why can't he change the nature of society? such nasty creatures we humans are. how could we have been created by such a powerful and peaceful god yet have so many flaws within us?

yojimbo i was looking for scriptures to explain all this. i too was very confused and then i was reading my bible and found this:
"therefore hear this now, you who are given to pleasures, who dwell securely, who say in your heart, i am and there is no one else besides me. i shall now sit as a widow, nor shall i know the loss of children; but these two things shall come to you in a moment, in one day: the loss of children and widowhood. they shall come upon you in their fullness because of the multitude of your sorceries, for the great abundance of your enchantments. for you have trusted in your wickedness; you have said, no one sees me; your WISDOM and your KNOWLEDGE have WARPED you; and you have said in your heart, i am, and there is NO ONE else besides me. therefore evil shall come upon you." isaiah 47:8-11

we have become a godless world. we have turned are back on our hope and help. God is allowing these things to happen cuz mankind is turned to wickedness. like you were saying bro, these are man-made events. mankind is evil and God doesnt change the nature of society because He doesnt force Himself on anyone. He calls us to seek a personal relationship with Him and the truth is that these days people would rather trust in themselves and this is the outcome. and yes God is peaceful and powerful and created us without flaws. there is sin and evil in the world today cuz adam and eve wanted to be like God and brought sin, evil, and death into the world. its funny or not really but ironic more that we as society these days are doing the same exact thing. we have made ourselves gods and rejected our creator. its not fair to these other countries to suffer while we here in the U.S. get to be laid back and care free. but the bible clearly states that we WILL fall and be punished. we have become a wicked nation where nothing is sacred anymore, you cant turn it on disney channel with your children to watch and not see some lesbian 15 year old girl who is pregnant by some guy she doesnt know. we are a society with no moral value anymore and i believe what goes around comes around. God is allowing us to punish ourselves so that we might say enough is enough and change.

[zimabog]

we have become a godless world. we have turned are back on our hope and help. God is allowing these things to happen cuz mankind is turned to wickedness.

So you are saying that godlessness leads to bad things?

But:
http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/File:Re..._the_world.PNG


compared to:
http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/File:Pe..._world_map.PNG

[geoff]

and yojimbo its not the children that sinned and deserve death. its the fathers and leaders of them that have evil in their hearts and do such abominations. it sickens me and i believe that these people should be lined up and shot for their lack of value on life

[yojimbo]

geoff you're ok in my book

though you're a religious person i can tell i'd get alone with you in real life.

[yojimbo]

btstone, geoff, sport_122... all three of you have faith.

something i don't and sometimes wish i had -- because well, you guys feel something that i havent and me, being a person who always likes to seek new things cannot achive it. why wasn't i not blessed with it? faith must be nice...

hopefully someday my view on life and religion will change,
but the way the world and society is going something really spectacular has to occur.
i won't be posting back and forth anymore because like i said in my first post in this thread "... there really is no point in debating this... you can't change someones belief with words. I came to that realization years ago."

catch you guys around the board.

[sport_122]

btstone, geoff, sport_122... all three of you have faith.

something i don't and sometimes wish i had -- because well, you guys feel something that i havent and me, being a person who always likes to seek new things cannot achive it. why wasn't i not blessed with it? faith must be nice...

hopefully someday my view on life and religion will change,
but the way the world and society is going something really spectacular has to occur.
i won't be posting back and forth anymore because like i said in my first post in this thread "... there really is no point in debating this... you can't change someones belief with words. I came to that realization years ago."

catch you guys around the board.

++++reps for a straight up guy. I respect a person who can state differences and remain respectful in trying to understand those whom are often hard to understand. Last note to you on this. Faith does NOT and should NOT come blindly. It took me lots of investigation and years of reading and hearing and weeding through the agenda based rhetoric that exists on both sides of this discussion. Best to you yojimbo!

[geoff]

geoff you're ok in my book though you're a religious person i can tell i'd get alone with you in real life

.

i appreciate that bro. i just try to live a caring and loving life. the bible teaches "true" christians to love all and have compassion on all. its sad that alot of them these days dont do that and the bible says they will be judged with the same measure that they judge others. i think i could get along with you too man. im just trying to put a clear image on what God calls christians to be instead of the dirtiness men have made it.

whether you believe in God or not i think we can all agree that man is evil and that we no longer have values and no longer put value on life. and as far as the guy above me commented bstone or whatever. we are not the ones who should judge. God calls us each individually to a relationship. you have no right to say yojimbo is going to hell. i am a firm believer that as long as there is breath in your body there is hope. God bless!!!

[geoff]

btstone, geoff, sport_122... all three of you have faith. something i don't and sometimes wish i had -- because well, you guys feel something that i havent and me, being a person who always likes to seek new things cannot achive it. why wasn't i not blessed with it? faith must be nice... hopefully someday my view on life and religion will change, but the way the world and society is going something really spectacular has to occur. i won't be posting back and forth anymore because like i said in my first post in this thread "... there really is no point in debating this... you can't change someones belief with words. I came to that realization years ago."

yojimbo out of all the people that i have seen posting in this thread i can tell that you have a compasion and a huge heart. i wasnt blessed with faith. it was hard for me to find it and its harder yet to hold on to it. i pray for you bro that not words from men but God Himself will give you faith that you wish you had. see ya around man.

[geoff]

So you are saying that godlessness leads to bad things?

yes i am saying godlessness leads to bad things. your charts just verify my statements. im not saying those countries believe in God im saying that their godless governments are persecuting the God believing population. as we pointed out before...a godless nation and godless leaders have no morals and no value of life for if they had God then they would place value on these things and have compassion. for Godliness (of the true kind) manifests compassion and reason. lets do a little history lesson...the nazi party was made up of Godless men who were persecuting a people of faith. look back in history and you see that every exodus and genocide had to do with a government that was persecuting the people based on religious issues. man is evil and is selfish. when you have people who have no Godly fear or reverence they think only of themselves and to further their own agendas. whether you believe in God or not it is a fact and safe to say that those people who do have some sort of belief have a code of ethics and morals that they live by and put a high value on life. you have never seen a true christian leader that killed off millions of people because they didnt believe in God. its quite the opposite...REAL believers and those that live their lives ACCORDING TO THE BIBLE do not kill, they go out on missions and give up their own lives to help others and lay down their own lives to further the gospel. (notice i put an emphasis on REAL BELIEVERS, WHO LIVE THEIR LIVES ACCORDING TO THE BIBLE)

[zimabog]

a godless nation and godless leaders have no morals and no value of life for if they had God then they would place value on these things and have compassion.

None of the African leaders who's countries are red in the hunger map are atheist. Same with Afghanistan and Yemen.

when you have people who have no Godly fear or reverence they think only of themselves and to further their own agendas. whether you believe in God or not it is a fact and safe to say that those people who do have some sort of belief have a code of ethics and morals that they live by and put a high value on life.

So what you are saying is that theism = morals?
Do I have no morals? Would I not give help to a person in need?
What if I only believed in Ares, the Greek god of war? Or Dionysus? The Greek god of wine and ecstasy?
It was the agnostic Einstein who said "If people are good only because they fear punishment, and hope for a reward, then we are a sorry lot indeed."
It was even Thomas Jefferson who said "Christianity is the most perverted system that ever shone on man."
Former Swedish Prime Minister Olof Palme said "Human beings will find a balanced situation when they do good things not because God says it, but because they feel like doing them."


So I say that if you need a god to give you moral guidance, then you have a pretty weak and underdeveloped moral sense to begin with.

REAL believers and those that live their lives ACCORDING TO THE BIBLE do not kill

Even the believers IN the bible? Lots of killing in there.
In the bible it says to kill homosexuals.

they go out on missions and give up their own lives to help others and lay down their own lives to further the gospel.

Have you ever wondered why people in Mexico and South America have European features? Its because after colonization [missionaries was a huge part of it] most of the original mesoamerican population died.


And as far as bible interpretation:
http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=5mLOUWl-L-s

[geoff]

So what you are saying is that theism = morals? Do I have no morals? Would I not give help to a person in need? What if I only believed in Ares, the Greek god of war? Or Dionysus? The Greek god of wine and ecstasy? It was the agnostic Einstein who said "If people are good only because they fear punishment, and hope for a reward, then we are a sorry lot indeed." It was even Thomas Jefferson who said "Christianity is the most perverted system that ever shone on man." Former Swedish Prime Minister Olof Palme said "Human beings will find a balanced situation when they do good things not because God says it, but because they feel like doing them."

my point is that men are evil, they tend not to do good for others but they do what will profit themselves. Einstein was right...God said the same thing. that we should do good out of the kindness of our hearts not for reward. The "christians" during the time of thomas jefferson were hypocrits, they conducted witch hunts and condemned those that did not believe what they believed...hence my post of "real christians".

Even the believers IN the bible? Lots of killing in there. In the bible it says to kill homosexuals.

here is where most people get christianity confused. the part about killing homosexuals was the OLD testament when God gave His laws and people were not under grace but the law. thats when an eye for an eye was acceptable. in the NEW testament after Christ came He taught that we are to "love our enemies and neighbors as ourselves", that means gays, blasphemers,ect...we as christians are no longer under the law but under grace. nowhere and i mean NOWHERE in the new testament does it say that we should kill anyone!!! or hate anyone! this is where the religions of judaism, christianity, and islamic faith differ...they never accepted Jesus as the messiah so they never took His teachings.

Have you ever wondered why people in Mexico and South America have European features? Its because after colonization [missionaries was a huge part of it] most of the original mesoamerican population died.

you are wrong yet again. i emphasize this once again...those WERE NOT "true" christians. they used their religion as an excuse to kill and steal.

And as far as bible interpretation:

not sure what your trying to prove by this...your actually proving my point. there are few "true" christians out there that actually follow the teachings of Christ. thats why matthew 22:14 says, "many are called but few are chosen" and 1st peter 4:18 says, "And if the righteous scarcely be saved, where shall the ungodly and the sinner appear?" most "christians" these days like to take one verse and live their lives by that but not the rest. man has always tried to take the bible and interpret it how they thought best fit their moods, situation, or circumstances. God has NEVER changed. His word remains the same, men have defiled it with their own views on what and what not to do. i know because of the so called "believers" dont like to practice what they preach that christianity and God have a bad wrap. but there are a few of us out there that take to heart these teachings and apply them to our lives and live the Word of God every day, or at least try to. please dont let the mistakes and falseness of the majority defile the pure purpose of the gospel.

[zimabog]

Geoff vs Geoff

the part about killing homosexuals was the OLD testament when God gave His laws and people were not under grace but the law. thats when an eye for an eye was acceptable.

God has NEVER changed. His word remains the same, men have defiled it with their own views on what and what not to do.

So what you are technically saying is that the stances god has in the old testament vs the new testament are the same because "God has NEVER changed." Even though you just said the teaching by Jesus in the New Testament are more acceptable. Even though Christians believe that Jesus is the son, yet at the same time is God? So technically you are saying that these 2 very different stances on issues (accept homosexuals vs kill homosexuals) are coming from the same mind?




So if Christians have the feeling that the Old Testament is "not under grace" or something, then how come so many Christians use it as a method to explain their position on homosexuality, laws, creation...?

[geoff]

ahhh i was hoping you would eventually get to this.

So what you are technically saying is that the stances god has in the old testament vs the new testament are the same because "God has NEVER changed." Even though you just said the teaching by Jesus in the New Testament are more acceptable. Even though Christians believe that Jesus is the son, yet at the same time is God? So technically you are saying that these 2 very different stances on issues (accept homosexuals vs kill homosexuals) are coming from the same mind? So if Christians have the feeling that the Old Testament is "not under grace" or something, then how come so many Christians use it as a method to explain their position on homosexuality, laws, creation...?

thats right God has NEVER changed. the new testament does not make the old testament invalid. the people at the time could not live up to Gods standards, they constantly broke the law and where cleansed only once a year when the high priest would offer a blood sacrifice for the peoples sins. they got so bad though that God destroyed the evil ones in the flood and saved the only few righteous...noah and family. He gave the new testament (grace and mercy) as an easier way for us because we could not live up to the law. and yes Jesus is the son of God and God Himself. He needed a way to show us (humanity) how to live and He needed to provide us with salvation so He came down as Jesus and lived a pure sin free life, taught us the easier dumbed down version so we could live and understand it, and then offered Himself as a pure blood sacrifice for our sins so we could obtain forgiveness always. thats why Jesus said, " none may come to the Father except through Me" john 14:6-9. and Neither is there salvation in any other: for there is none other name under heaven given among men, whereby we must be saved." acts 4:12. Jesus also said, " I and My Father are ONE" john 10:30. He made the way easier for us.

you say:

So if Christians have the feeling that the Old Testament is "not under grace" or something, then how come so many Christians use it as a method to explain their position on homosexuality, laws, creation...

and i say to you the point again that there are few "true" christians. Jesus taught us that we are to love all no matter what, that we are to pray for are enemies and love them, and that HE alone has the right to judge. we are not to embrace the ways of the world ( homosexuality, fornication, theft, ect...) but to embrace the person who does these and teach them of forgiveness and what is needed for them to obtain salvation. as far as the old testament goes...(laws and creation) they offer us a guideline to live by(10 comandments) and give us a history on our ancestors and how the world came about by God( creation ). hope this helps. God bless

[zimabog]

So basically to sum that up:

People were bad and childish. They could not be good people without strict rules with punishments.
So after a while God said "Fuck it, I'll start over with the good ones. Maybe they can behave."
Then Jesus was sent down and did his thing. The end.


Is that how it went?

I am just trying to get a grasp on the storyline. I was indoctrinated into Christianity like many, just as a little over 1200 years ago my child ancestors were indoctrinated into pagan beliefs. But now later in life I have dropped it.

[geoff]

here is the break down. people couldnt live up to Gods standards so he destroyed the evil ones and saved the righteous ones so they could start over. He then came down as Jesus to show us how its done, and provide a way for us. we are now back to the same way people were before the flood. thats why He will come down yet again and take the believers and destroy the world again...but this time for good. so yeah you pretty much got it right.

[zimabog]

So do you believe that a world wide massive flood happened, and that we are all descendants of Noah, and that Jesus actually has the Y-chromosome of a god? And that Noah actually collected 2 of every species, even from the American continent and Australia? Because these seem like essential things in order to fully believe in the rules that god wants you to follow.

I think this is a good quote I found:
"I do not feel obliged to believe that the same God who has endowed us with sense, reason, and intellect has intended us to forgo their use."
-Galileo Galilei


So would you say its weird of a god to give us the mental ability to find reasons as to not believe in it?

If you were born in Saudi Arabia, do you think you would eventually become a Christian and believe in Jesus? And if you were born in Saudi Arabia would you fully believe that Muhammed is the only way to heaven? Its the same thing as you being born in America and believing Jesus is the way to heaven.

[geoff]

So do you believe that a world wide massive flood happened, and that we are all descendants of Noah, and that Jesus actually has the Y-chromosome of a god? And that Noah actually collected 2 of every species, even from the American continent and Australia? Because these seem like essential things in order to fully believe in the rules that god wants you to follow. I think this is a good quote I found: "I do not feel obliged to believe that the same God who has endowed us with sense, reason, and intellect has intended us to forgo their use." -Galileo Galilei

im not sure if it meant an entire world wide flood or the ancient hebrew word for world meant land as in surounding land. i dont believe jesus was formed the same way we as people were. i believe God placed Him in marry's womb as He was. and yes God gave us logic its the ideas of man that say that it couldnt of happened when logically it could have.

[Nateds16]

yes i do i would die for what i believe in. say what you want. i turned my life over to god. some will know what im talking about. my life is so much better. i could not ask for more. i dont worry as much bc i know im in gods hands and everything will be okay. you just have to wait and believe and great things happen everyday.

[geoff]

amen nateds16. reps for you

[zimabog]

Well, personally, I think anyone who takes the Bible or any other religious book seriously is not of high intelligence. People who just believe in a higher creation sort of power are ok and more rational. But people who look to Jesus for help and the Bible for their inspiration, or who think their god sits in a giant chair with a large beard and will "be personal" with them or something are just as crazy who as people who wear magic underwear and believe a guy named Xenu sent alien souls here in rocket powered Douglas DC-8s.


Read about Zoroastrianism, Hinduism, Mithras, Horos, Amon Ra, Greek mythology, ancient Semetic mythology from the Assyrians, Babylonians, Sumerians...ect.
Read stories from the Hindu Bhagavad Gita, very interesting. Read the Epic of Gilgamesh from the ancient Mesopotamian religions, also very interesting. Read about Zoroaster, Ahura Mazda... ect... very interesting.

Many of the religions had major influences onto other religions as well. Quite interesting stories and scriptures too. Don't forget to study the pagan mythology of the people of your ancestors too.
All those religions are all very very interesting and have interesting relations to other religions too.

Learn about other religions and their history.
Then tell me straight up that you still believe in Christianity.


Then take a few biology, chemistry, physics, dynamics, and thermodynamic classes and tell me straight up you still believe in the divinity of modern humans (god's image and we have special dominion from god to rule over other animals), prayer/miracles, and an afterlife.

What makes the Bible any more creditable than the Koran, Torah, Avesta, Rigveda, Pali Canon, the scriptures of Jainism, Taoism, ...ect?


In less than 4 hours it would be Saturday. Now I am going to wake up and do things. If you were a true Bible or Torah follower, you would track me down and kill me for breaking one of the Commandments.

[sport_122]

Learn about other religions and their history.
Then tell me straight up that you still believe in Christianity.


Then take a few biology, chemistry, physics, dynamics, and thermodynamic classes and tell me straight up you still believe in the divinity of modern humans (god's image and we have special dominion from god to rule over other animals), prayer/miracles, and an afterlife.

What makes the Bible any more creditable than the Koran, Torah, Avesta, Rigveda, Pali Canon, the scriptures of Jainism, Taoism, ...ect?

i minored in Studies of Religion and I believe more than ever. There is more evidence to support Biblical accuracies than most people are willing to accept. Of course there is some overlap between other faiths. What that should tell you at least is that somehow people are tapping into this stuff without having it crammed down their throats from another culture or religion because it is somehow inside of us ALL. The thing about the Christian God is always going to come back to Jesus. Jesus' death and resurrection was proof of His claims. No other religion places a physical, historically proven, representative of their faith on this planet. There are MANY books about this that site very good reasons to believe it. There are many atheists that say that even the explosion of the Christian church immediately following his death is evidence that there was something going on with Jesus that made him a believable person in history, in that if he had not risen (he had been seen by hundreds of people after he was placed in a tomb) then people (especially jews) would have immediately dismissed him and his teachings as he made the claim that he would rise again. And there is huge significance to this. but of course the atheist reduces it to some sort of trick or misunderstanding of events.

My point is that its often not because there is no evidence, its more because your personal world view has been influenced and shaped in ways that make you think that it is not possible, therefore every piece of evidence you gather or that is laid before you will be denied or viewed with skepticism. Nobody can prove anything to someone who doesn't have an open mind to hear it or who refuses to believe. Even those people that say..."if God would ...." then I would believe...no they wouldn't.

Then take a few biology, chemistry, physics, dynamics, and thermodynamic classes and tell me straight up you still believe in the divinity of modern humans (god's image and we have special dominion from god to rule over other animals), prayer/miracles, and an afterlife.

This was my first major for three years. Biology, chemistry and physics. Aced them all and they do not say anything that contradicts anything of faith. You need to realize that the Bible does not give science lessons or research results in order to provide review. To assume that any of the sciences disproves anything in scripture is false. You can feel free to list what in science disproves what in scripture...and please site the scripture and site it as it is written, not as someone has interpreted it.

All the 6000 year old stuff, and the evolution stuff, none of that is discussed in the bible, so how could you say the Bible has presented a stance on it? I ask this quesiton to believers as well.

There are studies on the afterlife there are many books written on this and you obviously have NOT read any of them. (Dr. Gary Schwartz-Afterlife studies. You can read his stuff) Miracles cannot be defined scientifically as they would only be described as things that happen outside of the laws of nature. This means they are not testable and repeatable therefore science ignores them. Its a lose lose situation for anyone claiming a miracle. The scientist says prove it, but by definition the miracle cannot be proven to have happened a certain way so science ignores it (much like they do the UFO phenomenon)...whats that about?

In less than 4 hours it would be Saturday. Now I am going to wake up and do things. If you were a true Bible or Torah follower, you would track me down and kill me for breaking one of the Commandments.

this statement shows me that you really have not taken a serious look into asking what the Christian believes. This is far from the truth of their faith. In fact I would bet that you think all muslims are terrorists, all buddhists are monks, and all Jewish people have black hats and curly hair.

As stated before the codes of Leviticus and the 10 commandments are not the same. In the face of your obvious ignorance and lack of concern to accuracy I won't even explain it again. Just know this, you are completely inaccurate on your views of the Christian faith as it pertains to morality, justice, grace, and the God centered world view.

Not too many people view God as a giant man sitting on a giant golden throne in a kingly suit of armor. That is the mental configuration of a society who has taught themselves to associate all things with that of war and physical stature.

Finally,
you claim to have studied all of these religions, but the way you are completely misrepresenting and misquoting the Bible and the foundations of Christianity and Judaism, I doubt you. Even if you have I couldn't take you seriously on anything you would say about them as you have proven yourself to be inaccurate in many statements. Just remember that it is one thing to study it so that you know and you are accurate in what believers believe and it is another thing to believe it. Right now you are not doing either and when anyone who (believer or not) has studied and really researched the origins and history of the Christian faith reads your comments you sound extremely uniformed.

I still think that if you guys research other religions you would see the light.
Don't make me post it all in here.

as i just said. I don't believe you are accurate at all about Christianity which is all around you as a southern american, why would I think you are going to be factually accurate about any other faith/religion which is a minority and mostly hidden from the public eye? Your inaccuracies kill your own validity in this conversation.

Personally I thought you were doing okay when you were just asking questions and saying you didn't really agree.