Quote Originally Posted by trini_gsr View Post
just because you choose to defy God doesn't in any way shape or form undermine his Godliness or ultimate authority. it doesn't change the nature of who or what He is. to use your example with kids, my son has the FREE WILL to defy me if he wants, but because i currently define the parameters of his immediate reality (lol), if he CHOOSES not to obey my rules, those actions come with specific consequences (being grounded, no tv, etc).

the universal law of cause and effect still works, even in his 6 yr old context. whether he wants to listen to me or not, it still doesn't change the situation (i'm his dad and I make the d@mn rules). my authority isn't remotely in question or even debatable . either he can listen to me and live pretty comfortably, or defy me and have a pretty miserable young life. it's his call. LOL.

it works the same for God. it's not a matter of whether God is "okay" with us defying Him. The parameters for how the universe operate have already been set. There's NOTHING we can do to undermine what God has established. It already IS what it IS. We've been left with the ability to choose. You can either work in harmony with it, or fight against it and make things harder on yourself. It's our choice.



yeah, we do disagree here, but just a bit. maybe a better word for "free will" as i see it is self-determination. i agree with you, we don't have ultimate freedom because we have to work within the context of the reality we were created in. our universe operates by rules that we have no control over.

but within that context, we have the freedom to make whatever choices we want. however, the choices that we make are subject to the rules of cause and effect, so these choices come with consequences that are destined to happen as a result. free will and destiny to me are 2 sides to the same coin - they are intertwined. here's an example - everyone born is destined to die at some point, but how long you live and what you do with your life is subject to your free will.
Your actions do not affect God or his Godhood because you cannot act according to your own will, but allowing you to defy his authority is in the character of God, but doing so without penalty is NOT and this is were we see God punishing nations for their choices. Much like a law that you ignore. If the police just let you speed then your authority has trumped theirs with regards to speeding. When the character of God, as i believe is revealed to us, is demonstrated he very intent on making sure that you understand who is boss.

also if we don't have ultimate freedom then we don't have free will. If we don't have the ability to make any choice and to know and act on the infinite possibilities without any worries of consequences then we do not have free will. Our will is subjected to another authority. Whether you believe its just the laws of nature or you believe its God. We cannot do whatever we want. No matter how determined you are to do so, you cannot cut out your own organs and give them to someone else and survive. You cannot skydive without some sort of parachute, you cannot and will never make a decision to do something that you have no knowledge of. Free choices within limitations is not free will. Thats just the simplicity of it.

Hmmm... let's say that there is one "correct" answer.

If you choose wrong and go to hell b/c of it - what role did God play in you going to hell- he limited you to 1 right answer, and 3 wrong - yet allowed you to choose wrong. He also PROVIDED the 3 incorrect answers.

Elaborate
Not sure what the question is that presents the one correct answer? what is the question?

This is a very difficult question to answer for people who already don't understand the character of God (or who want to argue for his non-existence through emotional appeals) as presented in the Bible. But in short, there is much more to the question you ask than can be covered this quickly.

For instance, the whole thing about salvation. Most people think that YOU choose to be "saved". I don't. I think its grace I think that the decision is a response to things that God does in your life and in your heart. I think without him doing those things, then you will never make the choice.

I also believe there is another thing missing. The understanding that we are incapable of attaining a level of spiritual salvation without God. So in essence I believe we are on our way to hell before God intervenes and his intervention is what saves us. You understand the difference in that order?

Then we get into the mindset that some take...if God is so good then why does he send people to hell? Well because he cannot defy his own character or he defaults on his godhood.

Now to answer the question:
I believe that a just (as in- the embodiment of Justice) God created law. A part of law is justice and certainty of punishment for breaking the law. It seems like when people want to argue with the existence or character of God, they try to fault him for being who he has to be by definition. We get upset with God because he punishes and condemns us for breaking his laws. This is not the sign of a tyrannical God, it is the sign of a just God. Even now in our societies we are talking about the lack of justice. People wanting to let a child molester go, a kidnapper walks free, murderers walk out of our court system everyday and politician...well we wont even go there, but we are shocked by these things. Yet when we run across God and he does not waver in his law and in the implementation of his justice then we are shocked.

So in essence what we are seeing is not a question where god provided three wrong answers. He actually added in the ability to select a right answer when none was previously provided. Why was none provided, because the standard of Gods law is out of our reach on our own power. God created a law that is presented as the highest law. We created laws based off of his law. We cannot live up to our own standards let alone his. But maybe just maybe he didn't say I am going to give them one right answer and three wrong ones. Maybe he said "I see that they have no right answer because of the law that I gave them, I will provide them with one." This action of grace is much more in the character of the God that is seen in the Bible.



BabyJ...if I send you my number could we discuss this one by phone...its way more involved than even this, and I am always learning more about this one everyday.



Interesting responses...maybe as a couple followup questions:

1. Why must God be all powerful instead of just unfathomably smart and powerful, although not infinitely?
2. Why can their only be one God and not two? (This question is only relevant if you do not feel God must be all powerful)
You ask great questions, but the answers are more in depth than I can really go on a forum like this. This is better as a verbal discussion.
1. Because an all intelligent being without power has not ability to follow through on his planned justice. To be just and to be righteous he must have the authority in power to do so. A court with now police and no agents handing down rules of law is a powerless court. It is only when those rules and law can be enforced that the law is taken seriously. That is a sociological thing. He has to have the power to assert his authority over us and to enforce the laws which he has decreed. Again this depends on your understanding of the character of God. I don't believe God created and then stepped back. I believe he is much more involved.

Also we can only define infinite based on our universe and the understanding of how it works. There are postulations about other universes etc, but even in understanding those we are going to be limited to the understanding presented by the universe we live in. If God is the creator of this universe and all things in it then when do we come to the point of being able to define his (unfathombly-which is the same as infinite) mind? We don't because the nature of the universe is such that we live in it. We cannot understand a universe outside of it because the rules (hypothetically) would change, and we cannot get our hands around this one to make fully understood observations. By that methodology I believe it is reasonable for us to assume that the creator who is described as infinite, and non created, would hold all of the knowledge of his creation and then some as he can exist outside of it and in it at the same time.
2. For the same reason as the first. If there are two separate Gods then the authority gets split which way. Also the claims that I believe God has made about himself could not be true...in that he claims to be God of gods, Lord of lords, King of kings. If there are two separate Gods then the idea that Gods power is equally match eliminates the ability to be God as I think we all are perceiving.