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  • BMW 335i

    34 53.13%
  • Lexus IS350

    30 46.88%
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Thread: German Muscle vs. Japanese Hustle (335i vs IS350)

  1. #1
    Banned nbennettksu's Avatar
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    Default German Muscle vs. Japanese Hustle (335i vs IS350)

    enjoy

    BMW has it and Lexus wants it. That's all you need to know about the confrontation between the 2007 BMW 335i and 2007 Lexus IS 350.

    As the first compact sport sedan with more than 300 horsepower, the IS 350 has been the quickest car in this class since its redesign in 2006. But the 2007 BMW 335i has been through a redesign of its own, and its new twin-turbo 300-hp inline-6 now measures up against the Lexus V6.

    Putting together the 2007 BMW 335i and the 2007 Lexus IS 350 will tell us which car gets it done in the speed sweepstakes. More important, these two cars are redefining a category that the BMW 3 Series has dominated for 20 years, and we'll find out which car will lead us into the future.

    Choosing the Hardware
    When we matched these cars against each other in 2006, the newly redesigned 306-hp Lexus IS 350 ran away from the 255-hp BMW 330i with a quicker acceleration to 60 mph by more than a full second. On the other hand, that BMW outmaneuvered the Lexus in every objective and subjective handling category.

    For 2007, the deal has changed. The 2007 BMW 335i packs an even 300 hp (perhaps even more), and it also takes the 3 Series further in the direction of sophistication, making it a competitor for the IS 350 in refinement as well as speed. Meanwhile, the 2007 Lexus IS 350 allows you to switch off its vehicle stability control, so you can explore the limits of its dynamic envelope.

    For this like-to-like comparison, we've chosen a BMW 335i with the optional $1,275 three-mode six-speed automatic, plus the optional $100 shift paddles on the steering wheel. This car matches up with the Lexus IS 350 and its standard six-speed automatic with shift paddles.

    The New Order
    "There is nothing more difficult to take in hand, more perilous to conduct, or more uncertain in its success, than to take the lead in the introduction of a new order to things." — Niccolς Machiavelli

    While the BMW inline-6 has always been known for its smooth and linear power delivery, it has rarely been celebrated for its horsepower. But now that BMW has adopted direct injection and sequential turbocharging, the all-new twin-turbo N54 engine feels like something from BMW's M division. A plateau of 300 pound-feet of torque begins at 1,400 rpm and extends all the way to 7,000 rpm.

    And what a difference a year, 45 horsepower and 80 lb-ft of torque make. Not only does the 300-hp 335i slash nearly 2 seconds from the 0-to-60-mph time recorded by the 2006 330i, it also outaccelerates the Lexus IS 350 in the process. The 2007 335i sprints to 60 mph in just 4.9 seconds and blitzes the quarter-mile in 13.4 seconds at 103.9 mph — and all this with an automatic transmission.

    The Quick and the Stead
    With the 2007 Lexus IS 350's traction control shut down, we managed to find nearly a half-second improvement in its acceleration profile on the drag strip right up to the 1,320-foot mark, where it recorded a time slip nearly identical to last year's. The launch to 30 mph is 0.4 second quicker, as is the time to 60 mph. The quarter-mile comes up in 13.8 seconds at 101.2 mph.

    The IS 350's DOHC 3.5-liter V6 also represents new engine technology for Lexus. It's a model of high-revving, almost electric smoothness, yet this V6 must reach 4,800 rpm before all of its 277 lb-ft of torque is accounted for. By then the award-winning turbocharged BMW six is already riding a huge wave of neck-straining twist, and the 335i shows the IS 350 its trunk badge. Where the Lexus zings through the gears to make haste, the BMW doesn't have to shift to go fast.

    Grab a Gear
    "The most dangerous phrase in the language is, 'We've always done it this way.'" — Rear Admiral Grace M. Hopper, U.S. Navy

    The shift paddles mounted on the steering wheel of the Lexus IS 350 are simple to operate, as you pull on the right one for an upshift and then tug on the left one for a downshift. The paddles select gears more or less quickly, but fail to match engine revs during downshifts, which slows the process by a fraction.

    BMW has engineered its shift-paddle system to afford both up- and downshifts with either paddle, as you pull with your fingers to produce a very, very quick upshift and then push with your thumb to get a speedy downshift with matching engine revs.

    The ergonomics of shift-paddle arrangement are better in the Lexus, but the logic of the BMW system is more convenient. Meanwhile, we prefer BMW's approach to the shift pattern of the console lever in manual mode, as you pull back to upshift and push forward to downshift, as if you were using 3rd and 4th gears in a manual transmission. Many Japanese cars seem to prefer the pattern of 2nd and 3rd gears in a manual transmission, where you push forward to upshift and pull back for a downshift.

    Tailhooks for Brakes
    Both cars stop from 60 mph like a naval jetfighter snagging the three-wire during a carrier landing, and you can feel the strain on your clavicle from the seatbelt as the Lexus comes to a halt in 114 feet and the BMW stops in 116 feet.

    We encountered a dilemma when it came to ranking the brakes on these cars. Where the 335i provided superior feel and controllability at speed, its pedal also presented an odd tendency to feel sticky at low speed, as if it were controlled by some digital logic. Stop-and-go traffic proved to be a lurching, jerky affair.

    On the other hand, the Lexus brakes offered adept control in the slow stuff, delivering textbook limo-style stops, but the light-effort pedal action seemed isolated from the system and didn't match the BMW's ability to provide two-way communication during assertive driving.

    The Indulgent Electronic Nanny
    "It's better to beg forgiveness than ask permission." — Rear Admiral Grace M. Hopper, U.S. Navy

    Lexus has gone to some trouble to make its latest-generation vehicle stability system one of the most sophisticated available, so maybe it's no surprise that when it was introduced, the system didn't include a switch to turn it off. But thanks to a decision made at the highest level at Toyota Motor Sales, U.S.A. (so we understand), the 2007 VSC recognizes that there are some circumstances when it might be disabled.

    When the VSC system is engaged, the algorithmic threshold of electronic stability intervention is within an eyelash of the car's actual limits. Driven smoothly right up to the VSC's boundaries, the Lexus IS 350 delivers virtually the same level of grip as the car will afford without it. Overdrive the car, however, and you're asking for a slap on the hand — a beep and a yaw correction.

    What we did find with the VSC disabled was that there's a measure of athleticism in the IS 350 we had never experienced before. Even if the electric-assisted steering feels rather numb, like winding a constant-rate spring, it's delightful to rotate the car around each cone in our test slalom with such a high degree of precision that we can place the front tire within inches while gently sliding the rear tires.

    We admire this sort of vehicle behavior in a sport sedan, but we have to tell you that it doesn't actually generate any performance improvement that you can measure.

    Hitting an Invisible Target
    "Talent hits a target no one else can hit; Genius hits a target no one else can see." — Arthur Schopenhauer

    So along comes the fifth-generation 3 Series, and not surprisingly, it's better. It makes better numbers at the test track, and every driver appreciates its conversational steering, high levels of cornering grip and the peerless way it envelops road irregularities and smothers them. It's remarkable that in this age of super-computer design and virtual testing, BMW continues to hit the ride-handling target that no one else can even see.

    The Lexus earns our respect for a competitive level of handling accomplishment, although we were surprised that its characteristic placid ride sometimes broke down when the front tires suddenly transmitted a jolt of harshness while confronting sharp surface irregularities.

    There's also an important difference in the specification of these two cars, as the 335i was equipped with a $1,700 Sport package, including a retuned suspension with low-profile, high-performance tires on 18-inch wheels. We're guessing that if the IS 350 also were fitted with its $3,695 Sport package, all of its capabilities and liabilities would be similarly increased.

    The Value of Greatness
    "What is a cynic? A man who knows the price of everything and the value of nothing." — Oscar Wilde

    This is usually the part of a comparison of sport sedans where we apologetically explain that the BMW costs more, and that you get what you pay for. This time, the as-tested price of our well-equipped 2007 BMW 335i is $1,325 less than that of the luxuriously optioned 2007 Lexus IS 350. On the other hand, the base prices of these cars go the other way, with the Lexus undercutting the BMW by $3,255.

    In an attempt to balance content with price, we weighted both the price and selected features equally at 25 percent of our comparison's total test score. We chose only those features we felt contribute to the sporting character of the car itself, like electronic stability control, sport suspension/tire package, transmission specification, bi-xenon headlamps and a smart-key entry/starting system. Scored in this fashion, the BMW comes out ahead. Had this been a luxury sedan gizmo-fest, it may have gone the other way.

    Second Place
    "We are always more anxious to be distinguished for a talent which we do not possess, than to be praised for the 15 which we do possess." — Mark Twain

    The 2007 Lexus IS 350 is a fantastically rewarding sport sedan on many levels. It's a high-spirited luxury car in a low-impact sort of way. The IS 350 is a driver's car, just not the kind of sport sedan that goads you beyond your talent and into the guardrail. The Lexus demonstrates refinement in every molecule in way that a BMW never will. The IS 350 is defined by an easy, breezy nonchalance that can make you forget about communicative steering, slalom speeds and even more power.

    First Place
    "Success usually comes to those who are too busy to be looking for it." — Henry David Thoreau

    Once you get a sport sedan right, it shows a depth of engineering and design skill. Get it really right, and it will win widely publicized awards and bring enthusiasts to the showroom. The 2007 BMW 335i does both, and it's without a doubt the best-performing and yet most well-rounded 3 Series ever. The BMW 335i is still the best sport sedan money can buy, and you can quote us on that.

    The manufacturers provided Edmunds these vehicles for the purposes of evaluation.

  2. #2
    Locost Enthusiast Andy_013's Avatar
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    I'll take a Lexus over a BMW any day.

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    GoonSquadsNinja JDMjoe's Avatar
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    IS350 is waaaaaaay sexier

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    Senior Member | IA Veteran  OneSlow5pt0's Avatar
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    BMW

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    Banned nbennettksu's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by JDMjoe86
    IS350 is waaaaaaay sexier
    haha nooo way.

  6. #6
    Senior Member BlkCD5's Avatar
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    The battle continues. The 335i's torque curve snaps necks.

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    Banned nbennettksu's Avatar
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    335 really is the "King"

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    Getting there admedlin's Avatar
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    I'd take the BMW. there's more possibility with the twin turbo setup than with the n/a IS.

    I would drive either one, but if I had the extra money laying around, I would get the BMW

  9. #9
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    i thought the phrase was "German Engineering"....but on topic, BMW

  10. #10
    RIP Leisa! The Yousef's Avatar
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    335i for me...


    TWIN TURBOED CHARGED!


    http://www.vishnutuning.com/bmw_1_v380.htm

    ^read that and weep
    Val RIP
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    my only rule in life
    1: NEVER UNDER ANY CIRCUMSTANCES, DATE A GIRL OFF IA, OR TELL A GIRLFRIEND ABOUT IA.

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    Quote Originally Posted by 99ExDriver
    I'll take a Lexus over a BMW any day.
    Really?

  12. #12
    ( . )( . ) inmymouth _Christian_'s Avatar
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    BMW>Toyota, and thats stock. as for the IS keeping up if they're modded, haha more likely to find an ice cream truck in hell.


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    Locost Enthusiast Andy_013's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by GIXXERDK
    Really?
    yes
    I love JDM VIP sedan from lexus and toyota.

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    raggedy volvo owner
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    a famous man once said "horsepower sells cars, torque wins races". Looks like it applies here too.

    available torque ftw by the bmw.
    My car is factory....



    Every single performance part and or modification it has was made in a factory somewhere.

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    Delightfully Creepy Ran's Avatar
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    Lexus > Ultifail Driving Machine

    The Lexus demonstrates refinement in every molecule in way that a BMW never will.

  16. #16
    Senior Member BlkCD5's Avatar
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    There should be a poll. Honestly, who on here cares about the ownership costs of these two vehicles as a purchasing factor?

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    Proud to be Retrosexual Jaimecbr900's Avatar
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    Hmmm, so it took twin turbos to reach the performance level of an NA and that is some kind of "accomplishment"???? What's going to happen when Lexus comes out with their own "turbo" version of the IS?????

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    Delightfully Creepy Ran's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by Jaimecbr900
    Hmmm, so it took twin turbos to reach the performance level of an NA and that is some kind of "accomplishment"???? What's going to happen when Lexus comes out with their own "turbo" version of the IS?????
    They will complain about power delivery, harshness, or it just being too powerful for it's class. If you truly want a luxury car with reliability and excellent service, you'll get a Lexus.

    I've seen repair costs from Volvo, Audi and similar upper-class companies for their turbo vehicles. The maintenance on a turbo BMW is going to kill some people.

  19. #19
    Proud to be Retrosexual Jaimecbr900's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by Ran
    They will complain about power delivery, harshness, or it just being too powerful for it's class. If you truly want a luxury car with reliability and excellent service, you'll get a Lexus.
    Preaching to the choir brother, preaching to the choir.....

    I've seen repair costs from Volvo, Audi and similar upper-class companies for their turbo vehicles. The maintenance on a turbo BMW is going to kill some people.
    Well, and that was kinda my point. Lexus has no factory turbo cars, probably one of reasons they are ranked so high in reliability every year. They like to build ultra reliable NA cars, and BMW was actually a lot like that up until now. I suspect that although BMW had larger displacement (up until the IS350 came out) and won every comparo (although I think some are very biased anyway) they got complacent. When Lexus took their crown, they pulled out all the stops and the 335i came about.

    My question is this though:

    Although I am biased, why would the automotive world be all giddy about a car that REQUIRES not 1 but 2 turbos to keep up???? Anyone can do that, right? Can they build an NA motor and put it in the 3 series to compete head-to-head though? That's just on the performance side, also remember interior, reliability, costs (both initial and maintainance), resale value, etc. should also be taken into consideration to truly crown a mid-size sport sedan like this. Question is, has the new 335i been upgraded enough to be so good all around to be on top of the heap???

    BTW, what's going to happen when the IS-F comes out next year with over 400 NA HP???? Is BMW going to go QUAD turbo on us to keep up?????

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    Banned nbennettksu's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by BlkCD5
    There should be a poll. Honestly, who on here cares about the ownership costs of these two vehicles as a purchasing factor?
    of you can afford one, you can afford the other...

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    Banned nbennettksu's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by Jaimecbr900
    Hmmm, so it took twin turbos to reach the performance level of an NA and that is some kind of "accomplishment"???? What's going to happen when Lexus comes out with their own "turbo" version of the IS?????
    then bmw will will put bigger turbos on there. They have kept the 335 engine somewhat restricted, for when things such as the turbo IS (which will probably never happen) come along.

    Same concept that Honda/Acura did with the J seriese engine.

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    Banned nbennettksu's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by Ran
    They will complain about power delivery, harshness, or it just being too powerful for it's class. If you truly want a luxury car with reliability and excellent service, you'll get a Lexus.

    I've seen repair costs from Volvo, Audi and similar upper-class companies for their turbo vehicles. The maintenance on a turbo BMW is going to kill some people.
    Maintenance on a turbo BMW is freefor 5years/50,000 miles


    Quote Originally Posted by Jaimecbr900
    not 1 but 2 turbos to keep up
    uhh...they put 2 on there to eliminate any turbo lag

  23. #23
    Osaka Sokutatsu mocha latte cupcake's Avatar
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    IS350 twin that and walk away from the euro trash

    BMW = big money wasted

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    Banned nbennettksu's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by PURE jdm
    IS350 twin that and walk away from the euro trash

    BMW = big money wasted
    ooh ok.

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    Delightfully Creepy Ran's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by nbennettksu
    Maintenance on a turbo BMW is freefor 5years/50,000 miles
    Yeah, Lexus offers the free maintanance as well but, when you drive as much as I do (25-30K) a year in a new car, warranties don't tend to last very long.

    In the end, I'd still be looking at the Lexus as I'd prefer having to maintaining a N/A Toyota motor as opposed to a turbo BMW one.

    Note: If I was going to get a BMW, it would definitely be the new M Coupe on the Z4 platform.

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    Proud to be Retrosexual Jaimecbr900's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by nbennettksu
    then bmw will will put bigger turbos on there. They have kept the 335 engine somewhat restricted, for when things such as the turbo IS (which will probably never happen) come along.

    Same concept that Honda/Acura did with the J seriese engine.
    They won't put bigger turbos because of the engineering involved in having to do that.

    Besides, the Lexus IS-F is going to be N/A and over 400 HP. Simply adding a bigger turbo(s) is not going to get them there.

    Quote Originally Posted by nbennettksu
    Maintenance on a turbo BMW is freefor 5years/50,000 miles


    What happens AFTER 50K? Trade it in? Sell it? Get a second mortgage on your house??? It's a sales gimmick. Truly reliable cars don't depend on warranties to sell cars.


    Quote Originally Posted by nbennettksu
    uhh...they put 2 on there to eliminate any turbo lag
    Really??? I didn't know that.....

    Turbo lag or ceramic ball bearing turbos .....didn't they NEED it to keep up???? THAT was my point. Look at the results the previous year and compare to now. What's the big difference???? TWIN TURBOS.....get it?

  27. #27
    IA KING
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    BMW out of the box i would buy

    turbo = more power for cheap!!!


    GIAC FTMFW!!!

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    Osaka Sokutatsu mocha latte cupcake's Avatar
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    booooo! paul is a sell out booooo!


    i wuv u

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    Both are great cars, but lets go back in time a lil..
    Toyota had a 3.0 TT making 320 hp, uhhh, since 1993 in the Aristo TT in Japan and the Supra TT here and in Japan. BMW making 300 hp from a TT I-6 is fantastic but Toyota did it over a decade ago.

    Did yall know the BMW uses Mitsubishi turbos? Now it is a much easier engine to mod, people are chipping it getting 350-375hp with no problems.

    The 3.5 V-6 in the IS 350 is NA, it makes 306hp and has been tested 0-60 in 4.9 seconds in R&T. The car is very quick.

    THe BMW does handle better stock, the IS 350 still has some work in that area but its not that far off.

    I prefer the IS 350s looks to the 335 coupe, I cannot believe it looks bland to me. I really like how the 3 series sedan looks though.

    Also the BMW engines have been overheating left and right, they did not put an oil cooler in initial models, they are now. The Lexus, well its a Lexus it won't break down. The BMW does have free just about everything maintenance the first 50k miles.
    Vossen CV3 20x9 & 20x10.5

  30. #30
    Senior Member BlkCD5's Avatar
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    how well will their sequential system hold up. Some people just convert over to single turbo applications i.e (Supra, Rx-7).

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    Senior Member jfman's Avatar
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    BMW>Toyota

    After all it's what it is... a toyota.

  32. #32
    "She massages Shit" Mike Lowrey's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by jfman
    BMW>Toyota

    After all it's what it is... a toyota.
    And, that is why you are a moron.
    Rich...Bob...Stan...?????

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    "She massages Shit" Mike Lowrey's Avatar
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    Just another tidbit on why BMW put twin turbos in the 335. They found themselves beat out by Lexus in power and speed and needed to add more power. The existing chassis could not accomadate a larger displacement motor in inline form. Their only choice to make a quick imporvement was to add the turbos. It was either that or redesign the chassis.

    I would take the Lexus over the BMW any day and twice on Sunday.....

    Actually, I did. I have owned the IS350, and would own another one without thinking twice.

    The real comparo will come with the New BMW M# and the Lexus IS-F. These two cars are made for a similar purpose. Lets see just how close Lexus has come to the BMW.
    Rich...Bob...Stan...?????

  34. #34
    raggedy volvo owner
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    Quote Originally Posted by Jaimecbr900
    Preaching to the choir brother, preaching to the choir.....




    Although I am biased, why would the automotive world be all giddy about a car that REQUIRES not 1 but 2 turbos to keep up???? Anyone can do that, right? Can they build an NA motor and put it in the 3 series to compete head-to-head though? That's just on the performance side, also remember interior, reliability, costs (both initial and maintainance), resale value, etc. should also be taken into consideration to truly crown a mid-size sport sedan like this. Question is, has the new 335i been upgraded enough to be so good all around to be on top of the heap???

    BTW, what's going to happen when the IS-F comes out next year with over 400 NA HP???? Is BMW going to go QUAD turbo on us to keep up?????
    WEll, we all know that is a load of crap. They've put the turbos on for driveability, but not for power. When you look at this I6 vs the outgoing M3's I6, the 3.2 liter M3 engine it made 333hp in its regular NA trim and 350hp in its CSL trim. BMW has made powerful, reliable (albiet expensive) NA motors for years, so lexus making ultra-powerful, reliable NA motors or the fact that BMW requires turbos to keep up is just a cop out.

    I think BMW did this more to improve the driveability of the car. To "keep up", if they wanted to do all out power, they could easily crank the boost, or add larger turbos, but they decided to reign things in to keep the torque peak high, yet even. The way it was engineered, the power comes on extremely early ,peaks early and is very broad. Contrast this to the high strung lexus motor, its apples and oranges, but due to the earlier peaking torque, the bimmer is going to take off earlier, no doubt about that.

    However, to say they "require" turbos is bullshit. If anything, lexus/toyota delved into turbos much more than bmw with the Supras/ soarer etc. Until this particular car, BMW has always been known for its powerful, high revving NA motors and if you wanted to go that route, you know an M3 would easily trounce the IS350.

    Its a nice car, but the m3 of old, or an M3 CSl would destroy the IS....but they're in two different classes entirely. All i'm saying is that BMW make legendary NA motors. Don't take that away from them.
    My car is factory....



    Every single performance part and or modification it has was made in a factory somewhere.

  35. #35
    Proud to be Retrosexual Jaimecbr900's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by superboost
    They've put the turbos on for driveability, but not for power.
    Ummm, you smoking crack???? So according to YOU, the turbos were NOT added for power but to make the car "DRIVE" better????? That makes about as much sense as having sex with a prostitute without a condom....NONE at all.


    When you look at this I6 vs the outgoing M3's I6, the 3.2 liter M3 engine it made 333hp in its regular NA trim and 350hp in its CSL trim. BMW has made powerful, reliable (albiet expensive) NA motors for years, so lexus making ultra-powerful, reliable NA motors or the fact that BMW requires turbos to keep up is just a cop out.
    Apples to 747's. Even below you admit that the M series is NOT a comparo with the IS350, so why compare their engines then????

    I think BMW did this more to improve the driveability of the car. To "keep up", if they wanted to do all out power, they could easily crank the boost, or add larger turbos, but they decided to reign things in to keep the torque peak high, yet even. The way it was engineered, the power comes on extremely early ,peaks early and is very broad. Contrast this to the high strung lexus motor, its apples and oranges, but due to the earlier peaking torque, the bimmer is going to take off earlier, no doubt about that.
    To quote you, this is all a "cop out". So let me get this straight, BMW put in twin turbos NOT to regain their sports sedan performance title but for driveability yet all you talk about here refers to PERFORMANCE.....how's that work again? BTW, the ONLY reason they have a torque curve as nice as they do IS the twin turbos, no other reason.

    However, to say they "require" turbos is bullshit. If anything, lexus/toyota delved into turbos much more than bmw with the Supras/ soarer etc. Until this particular car, BMW has always been known for its powerful, high revving NA motors and if you wanted to go that route, you know an M3 would easily trounce the IS350.
    Wow, and BMW delved into airplanes before Toyota......what's that got to do with the price of tea in China?

    Name a factory STOCK turbo Lexus. Name one. That's what I said, right? Not Toyota, Not Nissan, Not Mitsubishi....LEXUS has always and continue to make remarkably reliable NA motors in their entire line. BMW USED to be the same way. The real bottomline is that in a comparo test you should NOT be able to compare an NA motor to a TT motor if you are going to put so much emphasis on "performance" because that truly is an uneven playing field. THAT was my point.

    Its a nice car, but the m3 of old, or an M3 CSl would destroy the IS....but they're in two different classes entirely. All i'm saying is that BMW make legendary NA motors. Don't take that away from them.
    So why compare them or bring it up? My car is faster than a stock Lexus too, so why would that be a comparo? I know of several turbo IS3's that would smoke an M3. Again, what's that got to do with it? The comparison is of an IS350 vs 335i, not M series. As you acknowledge, it's not a fair comparo otherwise.

  36. #36
    raggedy volvo owner
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    Quote Originally Posted by Jaimecbr900
    Ummm, you smoking crack???? So according to YOU, the turbos were NOT added for power but to make the car "DRIVE" better????? That makes about as much sense as having sex with a prostitute without a condom....NONE at all.




    Apples to 747's. Even below you admit that the M series is NOT a comparo with the IS350, so why compare their engines then????



    To quote you, this is all a "cop out". So let me get this straight, BMW put in twin turbos NOT to regain their sports sedan performance title but for driveability yet all you talk about here refers to PERFORMANCE.....how's that work again? BTW, the ONLY reason they have a torque curve as nice as they do IS the twin turbos, no other reason.



    Wow, and BMW delved into airplanes before Toyota......what's that got to do with the price of tea in China?

    Name a factory STOCK turbo Lexus. Name one. That's what I said, right? Not Toyota, Not Nissan, Not Mitsubishi....LEXUS has always and continue to make remarkably reliable NA motors in their entire line. BMW USED to be the same way. The real bottomline is that in a comparo test you should NOT be able to compare an NA motor to a TT motor if you are going to put so much emphasis on "performance" because that truly is an uneven playing field. THAT was my point.



    So why compare them or bring it up? My car is faster than a stock Lexus too, so why would that be a comparo? I know of several turbo IS3's that would smoke an M3. Again, what's that got to do with it? The comparison is of an IS350 vs 335i, not M series. As you acknowledge, it's not a fair comparo otherwise.

    The m-series chasis is certainly no comparo to the IS, but the engines sure are. You want to go NA to NA, then you'd compare the motors, the chasis of the M-series is a 2 door sports sedan. The IS is a 4 door. However, you can compare motors till the cows come home because as you know, lexus/toyoto tended to put the 2jz motor in many a car both sporty and non, same as bmw did with their I6. Your bias is showing sir. I, myself do not own a bimmer nor have I owned a lexus. I admire the powerplants of both cars, but i'm a turbo volvo lover lol.

    Anyways, I've driven both and I"ll give it to the bimmer. The reason why you add turbos to improve driveability is because there is this little force that turbos tend to add to an engine known as torque. Torque moves the car. Torque gets the car off the line sooner. HP and torque working together move the car down the road at a high rate of speed, which we are all fond of. Now if said vehicle is turbo charged in such a way as to allow the torque to come in sooner, it will accelerate faster, easier and more linearly than its NA cousin...Hence more driveable. The m3 on the other hand actually still makes more power than its boosted derivative, yet the turbo'd cousin will move off the line sooner and be more driveable as a result due to the greater (earlier) torque.

    And lets not compare turbo IS3's to turbo M3s. We all know how beastly they can get.

    All I'm saying is that you can't necessarily chump off the new 3 series anymore than the IS. BMW has been making high performance NA 6 cyl engines for a long, long time. The m3 is testament to that. Lexus/Toyota too has been making high performance turbo 6 cyl engines for a long, long time. You've got 2 or 3 generations of Supra, the soarer and other cars that allow show this quite clearly. However, its pretty clear they're trying to leap frog each other and BMW just jumped a little farther.....

    Now if next gen, Toyota/Lexus decides to boost the IS, i'm sure it would be pretty cool. After all, they've been doing it longer/more than BMW have. They should have greater experience.
    My car is factory....



    Every single performance part and or modification it has was made in a factory somewhere.

  37. #37
    Proud to be Retrosexual Jaimecbr900's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by superboost
    Anyways, I've driven both and I"ll give it to the bimmer. The reason why you add turbos to improve driveability is because there is this little force that turbos tend to add to an engine known as torque. Torque moves the car. Torque gets the car off the line sooner. HP and torque working together move the car down the road at a high rate of speed, which we are all fond of. Now if said vehicle is turbo charged in such a way as to allow the torque to come in sooner, it will accelerate faster, easier and more linearly than its NA cousin...Hence more driveable. The m3 on the other hand actually still makes more power than its boosted derivative, yet the turbo'd cousin will move off the line sooner and be more driveable as a result due to the greater (earlier) torque.
    You obviously didn't get what I was trying to say.

    NA vs NA, the Lexus STILL does and DID beat the BMW head-to-head. No question about that. THAT is my point. NA to NA is a true even keel level playing field comparo. Last year, the IS350 beat the 3 series BMW by more than a full sec to 60 and about the same in the 1/4. That's TROUNCING. THAT is the main reason why the twins were added to the 3 series and NOT the M series. That they added more torque and better off the line.....well, DUHHHHH!!! My whole direct point is simple:

    Without the twins the BMW's performance compared to the IS350's is WHAT????? Look it up. Look back at previous head-to-head tests. The BMW has always had the incredible chassis and handling. No question. Just as the fit and finish go to the Lexus too. No question. But when you compare raw performance numbers, it is IMO highly unfair and biased if you compare an FI car with an NA car, even IF the HP numbers are close to each other because......drum roll......TORQUE....which in the NA motor can only come from ONE place whereas in the turbo motor is a function of simply turning up the boost. Get what I'm saying?

    And lets not compare turbo IS3's to turbo M3s. We all know how beastly they can get.
    I used this to illustrate how it wasn't fair to the M3 to pit it against a TURBO IS300 either. TURBO IS's SHOULD romp on NA M3's.....THAT is the point. It's NOT a fair comparo. Just like it's silly for everyone to be all goo goo and ga ga over BMW's 335 hitting 300 HP and great torque.....DUH, it has 2 turbos.....DUR, DUR!!!


    Now if next gen, Toyota/Lexus decides to boost the IS, i'm sure it would be pretty cool. After all, they've been doing it longer/more than BMW have. They should have greater experience.
    Look, I'm not a blinders on Lexus diehard. I love all kinds of cars, some BMW's included. Lexus is going to counter next year with the IS-F, although I think that's more geared toward competing with the M series. I actually like the look and technology behind the 335i. I've not yet driven one, but I'm certain I'll love it when I do. I wouldn't take anything away from a car that's a perenial winner. No doubt about it.

    I just wanted to point out how it's ironic that all the automotive world and spectators are all a buzz about this "IS350 Killer" when if you want to truly break it down.....they did add twins to get to the same HP level that the Lexus has NA. Right or wrong? They did get beat rather handedly when it was NA vs NA. Right or wrong? Like I said above, the 335i is a very cool car. It has gobs of additional potential on top of already great attributes. Not taking anything at all away from them at all. I'm merely pointing out that it is not entirely fair to compare an NA car to an FI car as if they were complete equals because there is no way they can be IMO.

  38. #38
    pilotin' the pussy
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    Lexus has nothing on BMW.

  39. #39
    Proud to be Retrosexual Jaimecbr900's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by CleanCL
    Lexus has nothing on BMW.
    That was deep. Don't over exert yourself next time....

  40. #40
    Senior Member jfman's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by richw131
    Their only choice to make a quick imporvement was to add the turbos. It was either that or redesign the chassis.

    I .
    No YOU are a moron. The E92 chassis accepts v8 and even v10 engines. What a fucking moron.

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