xMAS and Christianity???

[b@d @pple]

well if we are gonna debate ..then here we go.

To prove the non-existence of god we first need to define the word "god". When christians talk about god they mean an almighty being. This, I think, is the only god that holds, since it is the only god that can be logically justified.

I think it makes most sense if god is female, because only women can give life. Something that even people in the Stone Age understood. Later when wars affected the cultural evolution, and men took control of society, god became male, but the female god still lives on in the expression "Mother earth". It should also be pointed out that an omnipotent god must be either androgyne or sexless. However, in most religions god is male so I will refer to god as 'he', 'him' etc.

Some people (Einstein for instance) believe in a god who is not a personal god, but a Spinozan kind of god. I claim that this god is not a god! To say that god is universe - by getting knowledge of the universe we get knowledge of god - is to redefine the meaning of the word god. This has nothing to do with the word god as it was defined by the "primitive" cultures which preceded our present civilization. He can be excluded with Occam's razor, and most important: Such a god does not hear prayers.

If god is not omnipotent there is nothing that prevents him from being a product of the universe. If that is the case, what makes god divine? Then god would only be an alien, a being of matter; probably containing flesh, blood and DNA like all life we know of. Everything god is able to do would be things that human beings also will be able to do, all his knowledge would be knowledge we will also achieve. In fact humans would be gods, which should lead to some strange kind of humanism!

Many people justify their faith with god as an explanation. What is the meaning of life? Where does time and space come from? Who created the physical constants? et cetera. Because we lack knowledge of these things - and maybe never will, since they are questions like "what is the color of a second?" or "how does sound taste?" - god is there as an explanation.

Let's say that god is the meaning of life, what then is the meaning of god? If god has a nature, who created that nature? If god created time and space, how can god exist without it? Since creation is an event in time, how could god create time? and who created god? To answer these questions god must be almighty, or else you can't explain them. In fact you can if you say god stands above time and space and so on (which he indeed does if he is almighty), but to be able to prevent god from being tied to future phenomena, you must give him the quality of omnipotence so he can stand above everything.

[b@d @pple]

lets keep going shall we..

these are the qualities of an omnipotent god

If god is almighty there are several qualities he must have. They are as follows:

* He must know everything. Everything that is, everything that has been and everything that will be. To be able to know everything that will be he must know every position and every momentum of every particle in cosmos (Laplace's "World Spirit").
* He must be worth our worship. A being that is not worth worshipping is no god.
* He must be able to do anything. If there are things that god can't do, he certainly is not omnipotent.
* He must be above time. Something that even St. Augustine deduced. But not only that, god must stand above all possible dimensions.
* He cannot be 'good' or 'evil' or, indeed, have any subjective characteristica. If god is all good, he cannot do evil things and cannot be almighty. Most people would object and say that good can do evil but chooses not to do it. Well, if god is all good he can't choose to do evil things, can he?

[b@d @pple]

and this is the theodice problem

We also have the theodice problem, stated by David Hume:
If the evil in the world is intended by god he is not good. If it violates his intentions he is not almighty. God can't be both almighty and good. There are many objections to this, but none that holds since god is ultimately responsible for the existence of evil. Besides, if only god can create he must have created evil. If somebody else (the devil) created evil, how can one know that god, and not Satan created the universe?

[b@d @pple]

god is void

If everything must have been created, then god must have been created as well. If god is not created, then everything mustn't have a creator, so why should life or cosmos have one?

Besides this argument has another leap. If everything has a source and god is that source, then god must have existed without it before he created it. So if god created time and space, he must live outside of time and space. Thus he is non-existent. If all life must come from something and that is god, god is not alive and hence non-existent. If moral must come from god, god lacks moral. If logic comes from god, god is illogic. If nature comes from god, god is unnatural. If existence comes from god, god is non-existent. If god is the cause of everything, god is void

[b@d @pple]

i hope this argument has been informative....there are you happy this wasnt just a "typical christian" defense

[trini_gsr]

there's a lot of reaching in those arguments you posted. we could go into picking them out still, if you really wanna debate...but i think the thing to realise is that belief systems, be it religious or scientific, are usually based on unprovable assumptions.

for example, scientists don't yet have an sure explanation to where the matter came from that exploded with the big bang. they just assume that part and build from there. all of euclidean geometry is built on the assumed and unprovable 5 Postulates. and so on...

so it's really simple. you can either believe God exists and build from there, or you can believe God doesn't exist and build from there. it's all based on an assumption, that you should logically make given the facts. this can be argued in either direction. i personally believe in a higher power, because there are things that science has yet to explain (like why stuff like voodoo, witchcraft, etc works).

[b@d @pple]

agreed!

[metalman]

for example, scientists don't yet have an sure explanation to where the matter came from that exploded with the big bang. they just assume that part and build from there.

Some scientists have discovered radioactive "halos" in the foundation rock of the earth. These occurances last less then a nano second yet are frozen in granite. All non Creator theorys involve TIME and LOTS of it to form this rock. So much for that theory.
Is there a more plausible answer? Yes...God spoke...and it WAS. Instantly!

As you say, "they just assume"....non Creator origin theory takes a great deal of faith and overlooking glaring evidence to believe.

[ISAtlanta300]

god is void

If everything must have been created, then god must have been created as well. If god is not created, then everything mustn't have a creator, so why should life or cosmos have one?

This can be argued both ways. If God does not exist and did not create life and cosmos, then who did? If it was not "created" but "just is" then again, everything mustn't have a creator. If the big bang "just happened, just because", without God. then what is the theory behind it?

Besides this argument has another leap. If everything has a source and god is that source, then god must have existed without it before he created it. So if god created time and space, he must live outside of time and space. Thus he is non-existent. If all life must come from something and that is god, god is not alive and hence non-existent. If moral must come from god, god lacks moral. If logic comes from god, god is illogic. If nature comes from god, god is unnatural. If existence comes from god, god is non-existent. If god is the cause of everything, god is void

Then who created that void? You are bordering on theories that neither you or I can comprehend. We reach a point where 2 = 0. Neither side can be explained. If God is the source, the everything, something must have created everything. If God is NOT the source, and the creation of creation, is the result of some mathematical sum, then someone must have created that as well. In neither cases can something exist just out of nothing. So in either cases there must be a source. So both theories are right, and both are wrong. In our mind, it is the universal puzzle.

Our minds are only able to comprehend that something must come out of somewhere. That is the nature of humanity and of life. We originate. We can not comprehend something just being.

[ISAtlanta300]

and this is the theodice problem

We also have the theodice problem, stated by David Hume:
If the evil in the world is intended by god he is not good. If it violates his intentions he is not almighty. God can't be both almighty and good. There are many objections to this, but none that holds since god is ultimately responsible for the existence of evil. Besides, if only god can create he must have created evil. If somebody else (the devil) created evil, how can one know that god, and not Satan created the universe?

As explained above, evil in this world is not intended by God. It is created by our own absence of goodwill and his grace. Devil did not create evil. God created everything, even the devil. Therefore, God created evil.

Let's put it even further. It is generally agreed that God has both a good side and a "bad" side IN OUR EYES. The "bad" side is known by his wrath. The good is known by his creations and blessings.

God has the ability to create and kill. He can create universes and end them. Create the earth and destroy it.

And again, God is not mortal. Do not think of God as a man with white beard as much as you can think of the devil as a half-goat with horns.

[ISAtlanta300]

lets keep going shall we..

these are the qualities of an omnipotent god

If god is almighty there are several qualities he must have. They are as follows:

* He must know everything. Everything that is, everything that has been and everything that will be. To be able to know everything that will be he must know every position and every momentum of every particle in cosmos (Laplace's "World Spirit").
* He must be worth our worship. A being that is not worth worshipping is no god.
* He must be able to do anything. If there are things that god can't do, he certainly is not omnipotent.
* He must be above time. Something that even St. Augustine deduced. But not only that, god must stand above all possible dimensions.

Indeed. Those would be the characteristics of God.

* He cannot be 'good' or 'evil' or, indeed, have any subjective characteristica. If god is all good, he cannot do evil things and cannot be almighty. Most people would object and say that good can do evil but chooses not to do it. Well, if god is all good he can't choose to do evil things, can he?

Good is good and evil is evil. Good can not do evil as much as water can be fire. What is your definition of evil? There is a wonderful example of this online somewhere that I have once read.

Let us put it like this. What is light? Light is the sun to you, right? Can you see light? Yes you can. You see it during the day. You can see its prism and its spectrum. You can see that true light is comprised of several layers of colors on various wavelengths and radio wave, yada yada yada. In fact, you can probably give me 1000' of analysis and proof of light.

Now what is darkness? Can you define it? The first thought that would come into your mind is "well, darkness is, dark... black... ". Yes, yes.. but Darkness is not a color, now is it? Can you see darkness? "wel yea," you would argue "if you walk into a room with no light, you can't see anything. Everything is black" BINGO. Jump all up and down, but the conclusion that you must come up with is that darkness is the ABSENCE of light. Take a look around. The sun sets, it becomes dark. Where there are no stars, it is dark. When you flick the lightswitch to off, it becomes dark. Therefore, Darkness is the absence of light. If there is light, darnkess fades.

The same can be applied to Evil. Evil is the absence of Good. God is almighty, and is all good. It can not be evil. It can create it though, and HE DID, to prove that he is almighty. Ladies and gentlemen, I give you the Devil.



Let's us take it a step further. Where does light come from? Light has a source. A lamp. The sun. The stars. All emit light. Light is created.

Can you create dark? Wel, can you? Can you darken a room that has light in it? the answer is "Only by removing the source of light". You can not come into a room with sunlight, and flick on a switch and make it dark. You have to close the drapes etc. Darkness is NOT created out of a source. Darkness is ONLY CREATED by removing the source of light !!

This is a perfect example about the paradox about good and evil. It is therefore not a coincidence that God is often referred as the source of light, and the Devil is referred as the prince of darkness.

Think about it. God is the lightbulb. He does not create darkness (evil) as a SOURCE. WE create Darkness by REMOVING the LIGHTSOURCE (God), out of our lives. The Devil can NOT create darkness (evil) as a source. He IS darkness (evil).

But ultimately the darkness (Evil) remains dependable and related to light (God). And while the light (God), is ultimately responsible for both, as a SOURCE, it can not BE both.

[ISAtlanta300]

well if we are gonna debate ..then here we go.

To prove the non-existence of god we first need to define the word "god". When christians talk about god they mean an almighty being

Wrong. God is an almighty entity. Beings are mortal.

This, I think, is the only god that holds, since it is the only god that can be logically justified.

Ain't that the truth. Someone mentioned somewhere before that belief is beyond logic and based on faith. Therefore, this holds true.

I think it makes most sense if god is female, because only women can give life. Something that even people in the Stone Age understood. Later when wars affected the cultural evolution, and men took control of society, god became male, but the female god still lives on in the expression "Mother earth". It should also be pointed out that an omnipotent god must be either androgyne or sexless. However, in most religions god is male so I will refer to god as 'he', 'him' etc.

Most people assume the "image" of God being an old man with a big, white beard sitting on a trone. While this image may have been immortalized in paintings to give us something to identify with, this is not the true image of God. That image is that of a man, and God is not mortal.

I already know what is coming "God created people in His image". Yes indeed. But what is our "true" image? This shell of decaying flesh? Or is our image truly what is inside of us? If the latter is true, and you can conceptualize it, you are on the first step of understanding the true nature of God.

If god is not omnipotent there is nothing that prevents him from being a product of the universe. If that is the case, what makes god divine? Then god would only be an alien, a being of matter; probably containing flesh, blood and DNA like all life we know of. Everything god is able to do would be things that human beings also will be able to do, all his knowledge would be knowledge we will also achieve. In fact humans would be gods, which should lead to some strange kind of humanism!

Therefore, God IS omnipotent.

Let's say that god is the meaning of life, what then is the meaning of god? If god has a nature, who created that nature? If god created time and space, how can god exist without it? Since creation is an event in time, how could god create time? and who created god? To answer these questions god must be almighty, or else you can't explain them. In fact you can if you say god stands above time and space and so on (which he indeed does if he is almighty), but to be able to prevent god from being tied to future phenomena, you must give him the quality of omnipotence so he can stand above everything.

Have you ever thought about God as the "originator" of everything? Again, that type of thought you formulated (or Googled) is tied to God as a human being bound to earthly physics and laws. God is not of this earth. Therefore, you can not explain Him with earthly logic.