xMAS and Christianity???

[Malana]

Isnt rituals and tradition the same thing? I think it is.

Religion and tradition are different. you guys get your wording correct and th reply.

I guess its a square is a rectangle kind of thing. I consider rituals and traditions to be different things.

Rituals for me encompass the proscribed order of our religious ceremonies. We open with song, read the old testament, read the new testament, read from the gospel, listen to a sermon, celebrate the eucharist, sing a song and go out. These could be seen as traditions.

It is the priest saying "Peace be with you" and the people of the church responding "And also with you."

Traditions are things outside of the order of service that are customs passed down from generation to generation. The celebration of Christ's birth is a tradition. The observation of Advent and Lent are tradition. The list of books accepted as canonical can be seen as traditions as can belief in the trinity.

[metalman]

The observation of Advent and Lent are tradition.

Indeed. The tradition of advent has its roots in the pagan tradition of observing the birth of the sungod. (tammuz and others born dec 25)
The tradition of lent is known in the Bible as "weeping for Tammuz".
It is not spoken of in the positive sense.
Both good examples of pagan traditions renamed.

[Malana]

Indeed. The tradition of advent has its roots in the pagan tradition of observing the birth of the sungod. (tammuz and others born dec 25)
The tradition of lent is known in the Bible as "weeping for Tammuz".
It is not spoken of in the positive sense.
Both good examples of pagan traditions renamed.

Lent is before Easter... Advent is before Christmas...

You imply that renaming a pagan tradition is a bad thing. Remind me why you think this?

[metalman]

Lent is before Easter... Advent is before Christmas...

You imply that renaming a pagan tradition is a bad thing. Remind me why you think this?

Yes I know when they take place

Using any pagan worship methods or adoption of such customs is forbidden in the Bible for starters. That should be enough for any Christian.
Its not logical either. God has been plain enough in His Word about worship. Who are we to add to or subtract from it?
If I walked into the room where you were and shot you a smile and a middle finger would you think that was a good thing? Of course not. It wouldnt matter a bit if me and all my friends "adopted" that as a symbol for "hello, how are you". Its origin is still definitely negative and it still means the same thing it did before. Same with pagan nonsense which God says in His word that he hates. You really think he likes it once we little humans rename it? Not in the least.

"In vain they do worship me, teaching for doctrine the commandments of men"

[Malana]

Using any pagan worship methods or adoption of such customs is forbidden in the Bible for starters. That should be enough for any Christian. Its not logical either. God has been plain enough in His Word about worship. Who are we to add to or subtract from it?
If I walked into the room where you were and shot you a smile and a middle finger would you think that was a good thing? Of course not. It wouldnt matter a bit if me and all my friends "adopted" that as a symbol for "hello, how are you". Its origin is still definitely negative and it still means the same thing it did before. Same with pagan nonsense which God says in His word that he hates. You really think he likes it once we little humans rename it? Not in the least.

"In vain they do worship me, teaching for doctrine the commandments of men"

I disagree. I think he loves my celebration of Advent, Christmas and Epiphany. I feel blessed when I observe it well. Where in the Bible do you believe there is proof that such custom is forbidden? What is your basis for saying that he doesn't like it?

I believe the Bible endorses this practice. One of the first problems encountered by the early Christians and documented in the New Testament was the resistance of pagans to keeping Kosher, being circumcised and in all other ways following Mosaic Law. Christianity was (and really is) a breakaway sect of Judaism. Early Christians lived as apocalyptic Jews who believed Christ was the Messiah and they were living in the end times. For them, all the previously imposed laws were still in play.

The pagans they met weren't buying it. Following Mosaic Law was just way too much work for them and they certainly didn't want anyone messing with their foreskins.

Paul was divinely inspired to cough up a new marketing plan recorded in the book of Galatians. He taught that the rulebook had been misunderstood and misused by Judaism. To Paul, the law was supposed to be a guide but strict adherence was not the path to heaven. Paul said salvation from sins and the defeat of the powers of sin and death came through Jesus, not the law. Believe in him is all you need. Christ's sacrifice is what gets us to heaven.

So... basically at this point… pagan ways were adopted. Paul said, "S’okay... keep your foreskins just go tell everyone else that Christ died for their sins."

Strict adherences to a rulebook allows the law to enslave you. Christ came to liberate us from that. So when I dress up and go trick or treating or decorate a Christmas tree, I am celebrating that he’s all I need.

I also think you grossly underestimate what it would take to convert a community of pagans. The conversion isn’t going to work by just talking it up. You have to co-opt those traditions. That’s the only way to make it stick. It is essentially the inverse of what happened in Japan when Samurai’s were no longer allowed to wear their top knot and carry their swords and what happened in Scotland and Ireland when the Queen of England outlawed the Highlander’s kilt, tartans and the playing of the pipes.

I would submit that co-opting traditions is the best way to effect change in a culture and convert a passel of pagans. To refuse to do so would be to give up on spreading the good news. It is tantamount to burying talents.

Martin Luther set about taking secular and sometimes downright bachanal music and giving it Christian lyrics while there were those of the same period that supported a "book burning" type approach to secular art. Luther said, "I'm not of the opinion that all arts are to be cast down and destroyed on account of the Gospel, as some fanatics protest... Why should the devil have all the good music?"


To refuse all celebrations on the basis of their pagan origin, lets the devil throw all the good parties. That's no fun.