Christians...do you drink?

[trini_gsr]

i see what you're getting at...and i believe your point of view is plausible. i'm just saying that the other is equally plausible and defensible as well. fermentation doesn't HAVE to be a part of it but it COULD be. plus it doesn't explain why master of ceremonies would make a comment like "...too much to drink". how does that phrase make any sense if we're talking about regular juice??? sorry but i don't see it...

besides, 180 gallons of any kind of juice or even water is plenty for folks to be drinking, lol. unless the bride was real popular and she had hundreds and hundreds of guests

[metalman]

i see what you're getting at...and i believe your point of view is plausible.

Well at least you see where I am coming from....thats more then some folks can I suppose.

[trini_gsr]

good points about the booze. i've heard the same line of thought put forward about celebrating birthdays too.

there's only 2 instances of birthday celebrations in the Bible...the Pharaoh's birthday and Herod's. and on both, someone innocent was beheaded, the cupbearer dude and John the Baptist, respectively. so does this mean we shouldn't celebrate birthdays?

and you still haven't given me another possible meaning for the MC's statement about "too much to drink". what other context could that statement be applied to?

[metalman]

good points about the booze. i've heard the same line of thought put forward about celebrating birthdays too.

there's only 2 instances of birthday celebrations in the Bible...the Pharaoh's birthday and Herod's. and on both, someone innocent was beheaded, the cupbearer dude and John the Baptist, respectively. so does this mean we shouldn't celebrate birthdays?

First you didnt hear any such thing from me.
Second, that isnt even close to the "same line of thought" but something completely different. Interesting subject shift.

The examples given are certainly not the only examples of drink in the Bible.
I simply cited a couple and pointed out that given the general overall history of drinking alcohol and its typical results and the numerous Biblical instructions against it, it would therefore be highly unlikely and illogical and that Christ the Creator, who would have mankind be clear minded and sober, would make booze for people at a party who had already consumed all the alchohol in sight. I am somewhat suprised to be defending the sobriety of Christ when the Bible clearly teaches the principle of sobriety.

As already mentioned Scripture also teaches that the body is the temple of God. With that in mind it is again illogical that the Creator of that temple, who's Spirit wishes to inhabit that body temple would say, hey, I know I said booze was bad and all but since you drank everything in sight heres another 180 gallons for all you schnockered party goers.

and you still haven't given me another possible meaning for the MC's statement about "too much to drink". what other context could that statement be applied to?

Well I did but lets have at it again.
Your assumption is that "too much to drink" conveys only alcoholic beverage is based upon our notion regarding the word wine. It is customary to serve the best food/drink first at a catered party, when people have eaten/drank their fill then food/drink items of lesser quality are then served for any lesser remaining hunger/thirst. I have seen this time and again at many parties.

[trini_gsr]

First you didnt hear any such thing from me.
Second, that isnt even close to the "same line of thought" but something completely different. Interesting subject shift.

wasn't trying to change the subject, nor did i say it came from you, just making an observation and asking for your take on it. you quoted examples of how drinking was involved in some bad things happening to ppl in the Bible. i quoted the only 2 examples of birthday celebrations in the bible, both with less than happy endings as well, and asked for your opinion about it. usually you don't have a problem sharing your views

Well I did but lets have at it again.
Your assumption is that "too much to drink" conveys only alcoholic beverage is based upon our notion regarding the word wine. It is customary to serve the best food/drink first at a catered party, when people have eaten/drank their fill then food/drink items of lesser quality are then served for any lesser remaining hunger/thirst. I have seen this time and again at many parties.

sorry...but there are some glaring holes in your argument here. first you say I am making an assumption about "too much to drink" referring to our modern notion of wine, but yet you turn right around and do the very same thing by making the comment about what's "customary" at catered parties and what you've SEEN at parties. lol.

personally, i've seen the exact opposite at catered parties. appetizers, finger foods, and salads are usually served first with punch or something else cheap to make a lot of. this will be the staple drink of the night. then you get the main course, at which point the champagne/wine is served for a toast. after that, you get dessert, and more of the bubbly if you want. the caterer will plan to make enough food to feed precisely the amount of ppl scheduled to attend. it's pretty organised and controlled. usually you are charged per person/plate. and if there's a bar, they're usually charging on an individual basis anyways

and up to now, you still have yet to explain what ELSE the phrase "too much to drink" could have possibly meant to the Jews during this time period. it just doesn't fit with the explanation you offered. maybe others are getting it and i'm just slow...

lemme word it differently...what does it mean to the 1st century Jews (or to ANYBODY for that matter) to have "too much" of a non-alcoholic beverage??? and in what way would having "too much" of such a beverage make you more accepting of an inferior drink??? sorry but it just doesn't add up.

again...your explanation is definitely plausible but you have to give some credence to the other side of the argument as well. that's all i'm saying.

[trini_gsr]

lemme word it differently...what does it mean to the 1st century Jews (or to ANYBODY for that matter) to have "too much" of a non-alcoholic beverage??? and in what way would having "too much" of such a beverage make you more accepting of an inferior drink??? sorry but it just doesn't add up.

you still haven't answered these questions. i'm not letting you off the hook that easily

[metalman]

wasn't trying to change the subject, nor did i say it came from you, just making an observation and asking for your take on it. you quoted examples of how drinking was involved in some bad things happening to ppl in the Bible. i quoted the only 2 examples of birthday celebrations in the bible, both with less than happy endings as well, and asked for your opinion about it. usually you don't have a problem sharing your views

Actually I dont have a problem sharing. But your statement was that the anti-birthday crowd uses the same line of thought to condemn birthday partys as I was to defend the sobriety of Christ and THAT is not correct. The Bible contains abundantly CLEAR instruction with rergard to alcohol. It contains NO such instruction with regard to birthdays. I have noticed in my discussions with you that when faced with an argument that has merit you tend to shift the subject so I simply try to keep the discussion on topic...which in addition to Huluds question is...did Jesus make booze for drunken party goers.

and up to now, you still have yet to explain what ELSE the phrase "too much to drink" could have possibly meant to the Jews during this time period. it just doesn't fit with the explanation you offered. maybe others are getting it and i'm just slow...

It fits it just that youre stuck on the phrase "too much". This is understandable given our modern idea pertaining to "wine". Have you studied into the original text for a closer meaning? Its quite clear to me that one can have too much, or their fill, or be full, from anything whether it be fermented or not.

If you follow your premise of "too much" booze, again we would be faced with the picture that Jesus Christ, who is NOT the author of confusion, and IS the Author of Scriptural principle, would have supplied liquor to those who already had "too much to drink" which would be highly unethical and certianly not in keeping with Scriptures pertaining to stronk drink. The logic here works fine. I am saying there is no way Christ supplied booze to the drunken. In fact this accusation was one His enemies made of him, that He was a drunkard and a winebibber. Not true!

I realize many may remain unconvinced, thats okay, I can accept that.

[trini_gsr]

if i remember right, we've only been in a discussion once or twice before . and like the last time, i think we'll just agree to disagree on this. as i've said a couple times already, your point of view certainly makes sense...it's probably the safest and most sensible view to hold. but there is merit to the other side of the argument. and i think that's been clearly demonstrated. it's up to the believer to decide...whatever leaves him with a clear conscience...

lol...for the record i should say that i like the couple of discussions we've had because it challenges me (and hopefully others) to really think about these subjects on a deeper level, rather than just accepting blindly. a lot of people have discussions about religion, but aren't really willing to change or modify their positions. personally, i'm always willing to learn...and i try to walk away with something from every intelligent discussion...

i'm still kinda new to IA so...i'm sure we'll bump heads again