wait... i'm gonna copy post from a previous thread.
Satanism (modern religion? evil? wrong?)
wait... i'm gonna copy post from a previous thread.
POSTED BY ISATLANTA300
Modern Satanism is generally (though mistakenly) regarded as a creation of Aleister Crowley (1875-1947). Aleister was in fact a very prominent ceremonial magician who based his rituals partly upon Judeo-Christian principles. He was raised in a Plymouth Brethren family, but developed an early dislike of organized conservative Christianity.Originally Posted by admin
You can also turn it around..... so because the followers of LaVey believe in the worship of self, you can call Satanism a religion of self worship, which has nothing to do with the devil?
You said it yourself... Satanism under LaVey is a new movemennt. A new religion. But its implicaitons are older than that. He may have just taken "the good" and made up his own "movement". That does not mean that he is the "True" religion. I can build a church tomorrow and call it "Friends of the Christ" and preach that Christ loved, so let us love ourselves and others in the church by having sex. That does not mean that it is the "true" basis of Christian religion, just a deviation of that.
If you have indeed browsed the "occult" as you stated, you would realize where it all comes from. It is much deeper rooted than just a "protest" against Christian Faith. I do not believe that LaVey just sat down one day and said "hmm let me write a bible". He must have based some of his teaching on other documents as well, mainly during the latin era.
Last edited by 4dmin; 09-28-2005 at 03:42 PM.
posted by: ME
I did state both LaVey/Crowley, i have read quite a few books from both. I like to try to get decent view of where they are coming from (i am no expert)
* interesting story * if i'm not mistaken Jimmy Page bought Crowley last home (he is quite taken up w/ the occult)
True, that is why i stated self worship, but i can also see why it is called satanism... self worship is the complete opposite of worshiping GOD, so it could be taken both ways.You can also turn it around..... so because the followers of LaVey believe in the worship of self, you can call Satanism a religion of self worship, which has nothing to do with the devil?
Ok, so your pint is what? It is not Satanism? So in that case is the Christianity the "TRUE" religion? B/c the bible was printed until 1300s so what about christians previous to it?You said it yourself... Satanism under LaVey is a new movemennt. A new religion. But its implicaitons are older than that. He may have just taken "the good" and made up his own "movement". That does not mean that he is the "True" religion. I can build a church tomorrow and call it "Friends of the Christ" and preach that Christ loved, so let us love ourselves and others in the church by having sex. That does not mean that it is the "true" basis of Christian religion, just a deviation of that.
obviously i never said he is the creator of satanism... but he is credited w/ mondern day Satanism in the form of a religion. Now were there satanist previous to this, obviously so King Solomon is where the pentagram came from if i'm not mistaken; which is the symbol associated w/ the church of satan.If you have indeed browsed the "occult" as you stated, you would realize where it all comes from. It is much deeper rooted than just a "protest" against Christian Faith. I do not believe that LaVey just sat down one day and said "hmm let me write a bible". He must have based some of his teaching on other documents as well, mainly during the latin era.
Last edited by 4dmin; 09-28-2005 at 03:43 PM.
posteb by: JAIMECBR900
Personal experience with Satanists, reading the Bible, reading excerpts from that Satanic bible of yours, common sense, strong personal beliefs, my own research of both lay information and actual books......is that enough for you or should I keep splitting hairs?
See above and you are confusing me with Vernon. I never said I saw anything on TV. If I had seen the show yall are referring to, I'd busted you out a long time ago.again you aren't quote or posting sources, which leads me to believe you have no idea of what you speak of other than assumtions. what research? you did a paper on the occult, you saw something on tv, what???
You do all the time. What's, "where's your scientific proof?" then? What "sources" are there if something doesn't exists (according to you)? Your mind? Your ideas? Your whole basis for doubting the bible relies on one simple premise: Where's tangible proof?just answer the damn question w/ sources not IT'S WRONG. Why is it wrong? If i gave you the same statement about christianity you and other would be all over me.
So, I'll use the same logic you employ then: Why am I dumb for NOT wanting to be a Satanist IF after your extensive "research" YOU aren't one either? What's that make you then?
Have you also read the book, "Hypocrisy, Plagiarism, and Lavey...by John Smulo"? Maybe you should.yes i have read LaVey/Crowley book(s), since it is the only credited source for the "RELIGION" called SATANISM. There is only one church of satan that i'm aware of, if you konw of another or another satanic bible please let me know, reading about the occult is way more interesting b/c of the interpetation. You have the bible, but shouldn't there be something for the advisary its beliefs are built around.
I have. It's an essay about how Lavey blatantly plagiarised an almost century old work by an author that went by the alias of Ragnar Redbeard and called it the "Satanic bible". It shows example after example of 100% direct plariarism on Lavey's part and calling the work his. It also sources many total fallacies confirmed by Lavey's own DAUGHTER about what Lavey's claimed background is and isnt. Did you know that Lavey was actually born NOT Anton Levey but actually Howard Stanton Levey and he's part Jewish? His entire background was questioned from where he said he worked before to being a lion tamer in a circus and you know what the rebuttal to that was????? "Oh, that's just things jealous people say...." Sounds familiar.
Still doesn't change the fact that you are defending one thing with one arguement and then turning around and by that same arguement trying to discredit something else. You can't have it both ways.^ The difference i can answer 100% w/o giving some BS run around answer. ITS WRONG!!!
-If you say the Bible is false because "men" wrote it, then you shouldn't use another "bible" that was written by a man just 36 yrs ago as gospel?
-If you dismiss the Bible as false because there is no Scientific proof of it, why do you defend another "bible" that has even less proof?
-If you contend the Bible is false because there are different versions of it, how come the Satanic bible, which is simply a collection of works from several different sources, any more credible?
-IF the Satanic bible that you are defending mentions Christ, Angels, and God.....wouldn't that serve as yet another "source" to prove they all do in fact exist?
Last edited by 4dmin; 09-28-2005 at 03:45 PM.
Yes tangible proof, but making judgements on a religon has to be based on content/source. why is it wrong? is it b/c they worship satan? but do they worship satan? see that is my point, by your definition earlier you agree'd that Satanism is the worship of satan, i disagree, b/c modern day Satanism is not about worshiping satan.You do all the time. What's, "where's your scientific proof?" then? What "sources" are there if something doesn't exists (according to you)? Your mind? Your ideas? Your whole basis for doubting the bible relies on one simple premise: Where's tangible proof?
your not dumb for not wanting to be one, but dumb b/c you haven't backed up your answer on the topic. If i told you christians are evil w/o reading the bible what would you say?So, I'll use the same logic you employ then: Why am I dumb for NOT wanting to be a Satanist IF after your extensive "research" YOU aren't one either? What's that make you then?
whether or not you believe he is the head of modern satanism or he lied on is resume' is a whole other topic, i don't discredit the fact that the things he says are from other sources, the church of satan and lavey back up stating it was build on research.Have you also read the book, "Hypocrisy, Plagiarism, and Lavey...by John Smulo"? Maybe you should.
I have. It's an essay about how Lavey blatantly plagiarised an almost century old work by an author that went by the alias of Ragnar Redbeard and called it the "Satanic bible". It shows example after example of 100% direct plariarism on Lavey's part and calling the work his. It also sources many total fallacies confirmed by Lavey's own DAUGHTER about what Lavey's claimed background is and isnt. Did you know that Lavey was actually born NOT Anton Levey but actually Howard Stanton Levey and he's part Jewish? His entire background was questioned from where he said he worked before to being a lion tamer in a circus and you know what the rebuttal to that was????? "Oh, that's just things jealous people say...." Sounds familiar.
i'll finish the rest when i get home...
- i don't use it as gospel i'm not a satanist, but it can be used as a reference for the religion considering it is the bible for the modern day religion.-If you say the Bible is false because "men" wrote it, then you shouldn't use another "bible" that was written by a man just 36 yrs ago as gospel?
- b/c it is not built upon gospel of GOD through man... it is the interpetation of a man, of a religion he is credited w/ starting-If you dismiss the Bible as false because there is no Scientific proof of it, why do you defend another "bible" that has even less proof?
-b/c it deals w/ real life, and is not made up of stories; but ideas.-If you contend the Bible is false because there are different versions of it, how come the Satanic bible, which is simply a collection of works from several different sources, any more credible?
-well i guess if you believe that then they are both ture-IF the Satanic bible that you are defending mentions Christ, Angels, and God.....wouldn't that serve as yet another "source" to prove they all do in fact exist?
From your questioning i'm begining to believe you have never read the statanic bible as you previously stated "reading excerpts from that Satanic bible" b/c if you have you would know it is a book of ideas and rituals, it is not a story book on the life of LaVey and him praising satan.
Then why is the religion called SATANism if it's not about SATAN? Start there.
I have backed it up, just not to your liking. I've gave you plenty of my "sources" yet you keep falling over backwards saying I haven't. I type very well and don't understand why you can't see it. How much more backup do you want? I told you already I have first hand knowledge of what Satanists believe, think, and their basic ideology. I have also read in several different places about Satanism. I know it has 4 books. I know that it has 19 rules or something to a language of the Devil. I know that it discusses their views on sex, magic, spells, rituals, human sacrifices, and even who God is to them. It even discusses their ideas of the afterlife or lack thereof.your not dumb for not wanting to be one, but dumb b/c you haven't backed up your answer on the topic. If i told you christians are evil w/o reading the bible what would you say?
I get what it says. Like I said, I've read enough pieces of it to form a pretty good picture of what it's about. I don't have to, nor want to, read every word to every sentence in that blasphemous book to understand what it's about. It is a direct refutation of the Bible. It even uses passages or ideas from the Bible in it's blasphemous banter. So if you think that I don't "know" anything about what Satan, Satanism, and their "bible" is all about.....you're sadly mistaken my friend. Sadly.
whether or not you believe he is the head of modern satanism or he lied on is resume' is a whole other topic, i don't discredit the fact that the things he says are from other sources, the church of satan and lavey back up stating it was build on research.
Actually in the essay from Mr. Smulo, it does prove by a big amount of documented evidence that not only did Lavey do those things, but when confronted by those accusations neither he nor the "church" try to refute the info. Again, they simply dismissed it by saying, "all that is said by jealous people" not "it's not true and here is why".
I brought it up not to debate that man's credits or faults, but to show how easily you defend something that was written by a man (which is one of your arguments against the Bible's validity), has no scientific proof (which was another of your arguments against the Bible), and has different variations of it (which again we can summize since he plagiarized from earlier works making him NOT the original but simply a different version at best, yet again another one of your contentions AGAINST the Bible).
If I didn't know you better, it'd be hard to tell by how hard you're defending that ideology.
How does that make him immune to your scrutiny and hair splitting? Do you reserve that only for Christians?- b/c it is not built upon gospel of GOD through man... it is the interpetation of a man, of a religion he is credited w/ starting
#1 Reality is in the eye of the beholder.-b/c it deals w/ real life, and is not made up of stories; but ideas.
#2 Are ideas not something that's "made up"?
So if I made up a "religion" and a "bible" and called it Paulism and the first two books in that made up "bible" are called Paul and Paulatious, then in your way of thinking we are worshipping cows or helicopters?????From your questioning i'm begining to believe you have never read the statanic bible as you previously stated "reading excerpts from that Satanic bible" b/c if you have you would know it is a book of ideas and rituals, it is not a story book on the life of LaVey and him praising satan.
Okidokie
Look at my previous post and tell me if you still think I haven't read anything.
well as i stated before self worship would be the opposite of what christianity is and also it also deals w/ what they believe satan stands for.
ok then why is it wrong, no BS answer like ITS COMMON SENSE, give me proof that you know what your talking about. Since you have first hand knowledge you should know about them, Right? Then why do you think they worship satan if i have already clearly proved you wrong?I have backed it up, just not to your liking. I've gave you plenty of my "sources" yet you keep falling over backwards saying I haven't. I type very well and don't understand why you can't see it. How much more backup do you want? I told you already I have first hand knowledge of what Satanists believe, think, and their basic ideology. I have also read in several different places about Satanism. I know it has 4 books. I know that it has 19 rules or something to a language of the Devil. I know that it discusses their views on sex, magic, spells, rituals, human sacrifices, and even who God is to them. It even discusses their ideas of the afterlife or lack thereof.
by your own admission you have not read it nor can you give an accurate account of what is in it. if you did this topic would be about the actual text and not your personal opinion of what you think it is about.I get what it says. Like I said, I've read enough pieces of it to form a pretty good picture of what it's about. I don't have to, nor want to, read every word to every sentence in that blasphemous book to understand what it's about. It is a direct refutation of the Bible. It even uses passages or ideas from the Bible in it's blasphemous banter. So if you think that I don't "know" anything about what Satan, Satanism, and their "bible" is all about.....you're sadly mistaken my friend. Sadly.
i do not know what you speak of so obviously i can't really comment, but if that was the statement you can take this many ways... you just as many christians would try to discredit a man who is your enemyActually in the essay from Mr. Smulo, it does prove by a big amount of documented evidence that not only did Lavey do those things, but when confronted by those accusations neither he nor the "church" try to refute the info. Again, they simply dismissed it by saying, "all that is said by jealous people" not "it's not true and here is why".
i think the point your missing is you are trying to compare this as a religion to the bible discussions we have in here.... you can't do that. this is a religion knownly written by a man... its not like he said the devil spoke to him and gave him these ideas, which is basically what the bible is. you come off very close minded in this topic jaime; you should use this to strengthen your own faith so you can educate others.
what you want to disect words to prove a point? "made up"? what do you think since your trying to bait me#1 Reality is in the eye of the beholder.
#2 Are ideas not something that's "made up"?
So if I made up a "religion" and a "bible" and called it Paulism and the first two books in that made up "bible" are called Paul and Paulatious, then in your way of thinking we are worshipping cows or helicopters?????
Yes you would be correct if your religion was based on self worship you could create you own book of codes/laws/rules/wtf ever start a church and tomorrow be the priest of the newest church on the block. and you can worship cows or helicopters if thats what gets you off.
^ this is very loose way of looking at it, but that is free will at its finest.
You haven't proven anything at all except in your own mind. I have used everything from dictionaries to first hand accounts, yet that's not enough for you.
If the "bible" that I follow has the first 2 "books" out of 4 that are CALLED "the book of SATAN" and "the book of LUCIFER, then what the F**K are you worshiping then????? Helicopters or airplanes?
Are you living in a parallel world or something?
Every single one of those are direct examples of what the Satanic bible has. Are you gonna argue with that too now?
by your own admission you have not read it nor can you give an accurate account of what is in it. if you did this topic would be about the actual text and not your personal opinion of what you think it is about.
You are once again making assumptions and making them incorrectly.
I never said I didn't read ANY of it. I clearly said that I had read a great many excerpts from it, way enough to make an educated decision about it. I don't have to read every word and every comma to make that kind of decision. I don't proclaim nor want to be an expert on that, so in that case the Cliff notes are plenty to come to a decision. Could I read every word? Sure. Would it change my view on the subject? No. So why do it? It's like beating your head against that preverbial wall 50x's. If you beat it against that wall 5x's or 50x's, you still come to the same conclusion so why keep doing it? It doesn't make you any smarter to do so, then why do it????
It's called the Law of Diminishing Returns.
i think the point your missing is you are trying to compare this as a religion to the bible discussions we have in here.... you can't do that. this is a religion knownly written by a man... its not like he said the devil spoke to him and gave him these ideas, which is basically what the bible is. you come off very close minded in this topic jaime; you should use this to strengthen your own faith so you can educate others.
You are right, I am closed minded when it comes to this very subject.
Thank you for finally spelling my name correctly BTW.
You may have a point about "studying the enemy" to make me a better defender, but in all honesty I think that I can defend my point adequately enough to get my point across. After that its up to the receiver to make up their own mind to believe me or not.
Last edited by Jaimecbr900; 09-28-2005 at 10:38 PM.
I'm not trying to disect anything.what you want to disect words to prove a point? "made up"? what do you think since your trying to bait me
One of the actual and more importantly factual meanings of the word "idea" is a thought or concept that exists in the mind. That sounds an awful lot like an "idea" is something that was "made up" inside that mind in which it resides. If you look up the definition of "idea" you will find that nowhere in the entire definition does the word "fact" appear. So an "idea" is first and foremost something that is "made up". If that "idea" is right or wrong, is to be determined later.
You said that the Satanic bible is not a "made up story" but rather a bunch of "ideas". I was eluding to the fact that "ideas" are in fact thoughts that are "made up", so your assertion that the Satanic bible would be more valid because it's made up of "ideas" vs the Bible's "made up stories" is rather like a double negative.
That's not mincing words or disecting them. I just thought you'd be able to put 2 and 2 together without having this drawn out explaination to be posted.
Some interesting quotes to add "fuel" to the "Fire" (no Pun intended !)
"Satanism", is the worship and imitation of the biblical Satan or Lucifer. It is the antithesis of Judaism and Christianity. Satan is referred as the brother of Christ, the one who was cast out of heaven, and whom the Satanists worship.
The "emblem", is a pentagram, like the one of witchcraft, but inverted, with the face of Satan on it. It is not witchcraft, although in practice the edges of Satanism and Witchcraft are blurred.
- The "credo", is summed up in "do what thou wilt shall be the whole of the Law", coined by Crowley in "The Book of the Law".
There are two kinds of Satanism:
1- Those who believe that Satan exists and is a powerful force... with animals and children sacrificed to worship him and get his favors, and the Black Mass as the main rite.
2- Those who believe that Satan does not exist, but it is merely the symbol or personification of fleshy human desires and appetites... and they try to imitate it, with all kind of sins, pleasures and selfishness, lying, steeling, killing...
Categories of Satanists:
There are not many Satanists, may be less than 10,000 in the world!... only curiosity and sensationalism pays them much attention, and the actual satanic activity has been greatly exaggerated.
But there are several categories:
- Group secretive Satanists: They believe that Satan really exists.
- The "Traditional", hate Christianity, celebrate the Black Mass, in the cup they drink blood of a sacrificial animal or human, to mimic the Mass.
(which I mentioned previously in my posts. I have been dealing mostly with this group)
2- Public Church Satanists:
No secret, hold worship services open to the public, based mostly on the writings of Anton LaVey's "Satanic Bible", and they believe that Satan is a symbolic force: The Church of Satan of LaVey, Temple of Set. The Church of Thelema of Crowley, the Order of the Golden Down, and derivations of the Ordo Templi Orientis (OTO), may also be included in this category.
(which may be more of what you know about, Paul)
3- Youth Gang Satanists, that may or may not believe that Satan exists: "Dabblers" who see Satanism as a symbol of rebellion against any authority. For most, interest in Satanism is a passing fad influenced by drugs, sex, and rock-and-roll, but with serious consequences, like in the spectacular case of Charles Mason, or Andrew Newell who stabbed his mate to death, or Peter McKenzie who sexually abused 13 children. (which I call Attention Whores doing crimes)
4- Individual Satanists, often disturbed individuals, neurotic or psychotic, like most Satanists! (LOL)
I got free clear tails with my ride.....
Morality of Satanism:
"Do what you will" is the general principle. What is "bad" in the Bible becomes "good"; sin!, and Satan will be with you!... they call it "freedom of choice"; they believe to get powers to perform magic by doing evil acts.
- At the low level, they burn crosses, spray Satanic graffiti, dig up graves...
(Like I mentioned in my post before, Paul. It is not "secret handshake and OMFG-Graffitti, but this is what I was referring to
- A higher level is by burning churches, doing all kind of sexual aberrations, steeling, drugs...
- Children sexual abuse is a higher level... and, of course, the ultimate evil is "killing", children or adults, the greatest release of magical energy.
I got free clear tails with my ride.....
^ where did you dig up that crock of shit generalization? ok, i'm not going to say everything you posted is false b/c that would be a dumb statement, but this again sounds like alot of christian blender full of agenda to make a case for something.
i know christians, who lie, cheat, steal, murder, so... w/ that said if there is only 10k statanist and millions of christians i would go to say that there are far more evil christians than any other religion.
Satanism is a great topic, b/c we as a society us it as a scapegoat for evil. "The devil told me to do it..." how many times have we heard this; it will come from not practicing statanist, but your churcher goer down the street.
Again, we need to seperate modern day religion and off branch or individual practices. Some christians bomb abortion clinics, some muslims drive planes in to buildings, some priest molest alter boys; does that make them all bad b/c of a few crazy ones?
by these stances i've read above i'm surprised Jaime you haven't fliped your shit when you see me out wearing a blaphemous t-shirt or listening to that devil worshiping music
See, now why would you say all that. I'm willing to bet that info came from all kinds of different sources he used for his paper he mentioned a long time ago. Why would his information be false and yours be 100% right? If you really look at it, he's posted more information on the subject than anyone else, including you. You wanted content, you got content. Now, it's a crock. Come on.
Again, we need to seperate modern day religion and off branch or individual practices. Some christians bomb abortion clinics, some muslims drive planes in to buildings, some priest molest alter boys; does that make them all bad b/c of a few crazy ones?
Why? In every discussion that has dealt with the Bible, Christians, and/or Christianity there has not been a single distinction made about "this Christian does this and that Christian does that....some are cool, some are not..." It's always been about ALL Christians are this and thats it. I know this because I've said like a gazillion times that I have even agreed with some of the things yall have said about SOME so called Christians that do in fact do some shady things. Instead of any of you saying, "you're right. It's not ALL Christians that do this or do that..." yall end up saying, "Bullshit. You're just a Bible thumper and don't know shit and every church I've gone to is this and every Christian that talks to me is that.....yada yada....".
Now suddenly when the subject is Satanists....you want to super disect them and say that some are not as extreme, some are nice, some are this, some are that...... :jerkit:
Whatever.
This is the exact example of what I've said before. People walking around with their eyes closed and complaining they can't see.
Come on now, I don't flip over things like that. You know better. I can have fun with anyone, even a devil worshiper if that's the case. Just don't bring up the subject or ask me to do it or it is then that I get opinionated.by these stances i've read above i'm surprised Jaime you haven't fliped your shit when you see me out wearing a blaphemous t-shirt or listening to that devil worshiping music
Hold on before you get owned... i never said it was FALSE, and if you don't think those are generalizing statement then please explain to me how you know for infact that ALL statanist: lie, steal, murder, grave, rob, etc... he did post some good content, but to what point? As i stated in my last sentence which you obviously didn't read, there is quite an agenda behind what was written. I can obviously do the same about christisans or muslims i stated that already. So if we are going to base this discussion on Generalizations why don't we do this for every discussion?See, now why would you say all that. I'm willing to bet that info came from all kinds of different sources he used for his paper he mentioned a long time ago. Why would his information be false and yours be 100% right? If you really look at it, he's posted more information on the subject than anyone else, including you. You wanted content, you got content. Now, it's a crock. Come on.
i don't think i have ever stated EVERY christian is like this; if i did please quote me.Why? In every discussion that has dealt with the Bible, Christians, and/or Christianity there has not been a single distinction made about "this Christian does this and that Christian does that....some are cool, some are not..." It's always been about ALL Christians are this and thats it. I know this because I've said like a gazillion times that I have even agreed with some of the things yall have said about SOME so called Christians that do in fact do some shady things. Instead of any of you saying, "you're right. It's not ALL Christians that do this or do that..." yall end up saying, "Bullshit. You're just a Bible thumper and don't know shit and every church I've gone to is this and every Christian that talks to me is that.....yada yada....".
You can't make a generalize statements and expect it to be taken as PROOF or TRUTH
Then what did you mean by " ^ where did you dig up that crock of shit generalization? ok, i'm not going to say everything you posted is false b/c that would be a dumb statement, but this again sounds like alot of christian blender full of agenda to make a case for something."
Call me stupid if you want, but it's clear that you are at the very least calling SOME of the statements he makes FALSE right there. Are you not?
Well then, my statement still applies: What is it that makes ANY of his statements FALSE, propaganda, banter, wrong, stupid, etc and ALL of yours 100% accurate then?
I can't speak for him, but I believe he was trying to give you the "content" you kept asking for to prove once and for all that he does know a little something about the subject.and if you don't think those are generalizing statement then please explain to me how you know for infact that ALL statanist: lie, steal, murder, grave, rob, etc... he did post some good content, but to what point?
What do you call your statements about Christianity, unbiased and accurate? Right.As i stated in my last sentence which you obviously didn't read, there is quite an agenda behind what was written. I can obviously do the same about christisans or muslims i stated that already. So if we are going to base this discussion on Generalizations why don't we do this for every discussion?
You've said time and again, as have others too, that "Christians" do this and "Christians" do that.....never once uttering the words "some" or a "few" anywhere in those passages. So, I don't see how this is any different. We are talking about "Satanism" and "Satanists". So, it is your contention that we should suddenly be ultra specific and say, "Satanists that live at 1234 Main are this" and the one's at "2345 South street are that".... :jerkit:
Whatever.
You guys have been knocking the Bible, the church, and Christianity as a whole using very big generalizations. Go back and find 5 posts where you directly acknowledge that "some" churches do this or "some" Christians do that. You won't, because they're not there. So how come it's OK for you to generalize then and now when the shoe is on the other foot it's not?
Again, it's a case of the pot calling the kettle black.You can't make a generalize statements and expect it to be taken as PROOF or TRUTH
See above. Find those quotes where you guys have shown even an ounce of possibility that SOME churches or SOME Christians are good instead of the hypocrites, liars, thieves, and closed minded cattle you guys have been blasting we ALL are. Find them.
Until then, you have to deal with generalizations the same way we have.....one at at time. You have a difference in opinion about something he's saying, then debate that. Don't try and debate ALL he is saying with ONE statement of "that's too general". Isn't that what you were bitching at me about before? When I told you that "I believe" or "It's in the Bible"? You jumped up and down and said that was too vague and I wasn't backing up my statements with sources.......where's YOUR back up now?
Once again, good for the goose but not for the gander.
^ your still missing the point... if i say CHRISTIANS ARE CHILD MOLESTERS is that true? I can back it up i can show you many of cases of preist banging alter boys. So it is ok for me to make that generalization then?
I did state that it he was posting generalized statments and i would no refute that some are not false, b/c i know for a fact that some of the statements posted are true...
now the point is to weed through the fog and discuss what the religion is about (ie. quote from the bible not opinions) or what they support. I very easily posted the words from LaVey stating it is a religion about self worship; even though you think it deals w/ Devil Worship. That is how a discussion works, on educated questions and answers; not general statements or assumptions.
It is different from me saying that "50% of christians can't explain anything other than ITS IN THE BIBLE"... i for one am not making general statment about the entire religion but acknowledging that there is a problem w/ in the religion. Like i said its like me writing a book on growing up black... i'm fucking white and i have no clue how it is to grow up black.
Very well said, but which statements are the ones you are saying he is generalizing? We've clarified now that you aren't saying ALL of them, so which ones then?
That is the first time in which you have remotely acknowledged that the religion as a whole is not the problem. All of your previous statements made it seem like you were making blanket statements. I'm serious. That's why I've kept telling you guys that maybe yall went to the wrong church or maybe summized by watching the vast majority of the fools on TV that "say" they are good Christian people when all they are is scammers.It is different from me saying that "50% of christians can't explain anything other than ITS IN THE BIBLE"... i for one am not making general statment about the entire religion but acknowledging that there is a problem w/ in the religion.
I agree with you that there are hypocrites and liars and thieves in every religion. But my contention has always been that they are part of the minority and far from the majority. Therefore it is unfair to classify every Christian under the same umbrella of deception.
The same thing goes for the Bible. There may be things or people in the Bible that are questioned via Scientific proof. Fine. But that doesn't take away from the basic message of that particular passage. Was Jesus born on Dec. 25th? Not sure, but I am sure that the fact that he WAS born at all is far more important.
That also applies to the Satanist and their movement. It's not as important, atleast to me, that some are more extreme than others as is the fact they have an ideology that is 180 degrees of mine. That by itself is enough for me to decide that's not something I want to be in. If they kill a calf in the name of Satan or they are blasphemous towards God, is more important to me than if they killed 2.3 calves and only said bad things about God 3.5 times. That's semantic...details.....but the main picture still remains the same. To me, they are wrong because of their general belief system. Are they cool people to hang with? Are they nice people? Are they cute or ugly? Again, all those are details of the bigger picture.
Paul, paul.. you are dealing with 2 different animals here. It is one thing to say that a lot of priests had molested children, which is NOT part of being a Christian or practicing Christianism. It is WRONG in the view of THE CHRISTIAN CHURCH and it is NOT something that CHRISTIANS do.
It is ONE OTHER THING to "allege" that MOST satanist DO NOT practice one form or another of that what was described above, which is RIGHT in the VIEW of THEIR CHURCH.
Do what you will shall be law, right??? It is mentioned in the book of LAVEY. I did not say that !!!
You and holding on to the idea that Satanism is about self worship.
Call it what you want. However you want to disect it. SATANism is the worship of SATAN, or the direct refusal of all that the Christian church stands for. Go with either definition and the answer is clear. The worship of SATAN is indeed the worship of SATAN. Rebellion agains God and Christ is the worship of SATAN. You either worship GOD or SATAN. There is no "referee" or Middleman.
Then how could you have missed such passages from LAVEY HIMSELF???
On "The Satanic Bible", the "9 Satanic Statements" claim that "Satan represents indulgence, instead of abstinence". Represents materialism, instead of pipe dreams. Vengeance, instead of turning the other cheek. Satan represents man as just another animal, more often worse, the most vicious animal of all.
... "Here and now is our day of joy", proclaims, "eye for eye, tooth for tooth, aye four-fold, a hundred fold!"... kindness to those who deserve it, but if you want to kill them, do it!, morally or physically, because the main doctrine is "do what you want".
- It falls in the category of "public Satanism", with a symbolic Satan... but in the rites, "a nude woman" is the altar.
In the prayers, Satan is invoked and honored, and Jesus Christ is cursed... and that's not just a symbol!... 19 prayers are recited in "enochian language", a kind of old Arabic , and some of them end with this English translation: "Be friendly unto me, for I am the same!- the true worshiper of the highest and ineffable King of Hell".
Is that is not about adoring the Devil then I do not know what is.
I got free clear tails with my ride.....
alot of things i say are to prove a point, making general statements like i posted the example can be taken many ways; i try to use them to backup a way of thinking.
that is what i'm getting at... in your post you mentioned crimes against children, lieing, stealing... i am talking about LaVey satanism now, there is nothing in there that says that is what a satanist does (as a practice). Now is there satanist that lie, steal, or molest children? Yes, all people no matter the religion are capable of that. Furthermore it is against the Satanic Statements to hurt a child, so that is one part where i do not agree w/ everything you posted as truth.
well in the sense of worship as bowing down praising/praying... that is not 100% accurate. You can be a satanist and not physically worship the devil. Now like i stated earlier, self worship is basically the opposite of what christianity b/c you are putting yourself over divine being; and i did quote LaVey on this idea.You and holding on to the idea that Satanism is about self worship.
Call it what you want. However you want to disect it. SATANism is the worship of SATAN, or the direct refusal of all that the Christian church stands for. Go with either definition and the answer is clear. The worship of SATAN is indeed the worship of SATAN. Rebellion agains God and Christ is the worship of SATAN. You either worship GOD or SATAN. There is no "referee" or Middleman.
That is all true, but just b/c you indulge instead of abstain doesn't me you are worshiping satan. In that case every person who sin in the christian religion is worshiping satan.On "The Satanic Bible", the "9 Satanic Statements" claim that "Satan represents indulgence, instead of abstinence". Represents materialism, instead of pipe dreams. Vengeance, instead of turning the other cheek. Satan represents man as just another animal, more often worse, the most vicious animal of all.
ok break this down w/ an open mind... i know christians who would agress w/ these statements w/o knowing the source... "Here and now is our day of joy", proclaims, "eye for eye, tooth for tooth, aye four-fold, a hundred fold!"... kindness to those who deserve it, but if you want to kill them, do it!, morally or physically, because the main doctrine is "do what you want".
Take what i put in bold there are many statements just like this... it is not a pretty statement but it is the true and is reality. You/Jaime/Me/etc.. all do the same thing, so how bad is it if you are more than capable of doing the same thing?
I don't refute the fact that the rituals to speak of satan, but you have to remember this is a Self Worship religion, you can make it what you want it to be basically, i can quote LaVey if need be on this, b/c he and the church flat come out and state that "they do not look for followers, but leaders"... if he wanted to start a cult he would of. It is based on freely thinking can doing what you desire; if thats praising the devil, eating ice cream, grave robbing, dressing in womens clothing, etc... you take it as you will.Is that is not about adoring the Devil then I do not know what is.
I have read the S. Bible atleast 2x, from a reality stand point many of the ideas are on par w/ reality even w/ christians i know, keep in mind i'm not talking about the rituals.
If you want to dress all in black, wave a sword over a naked woman alter, and invoke the devil... but you can just as easily do it behind a fancy suit, interpeting the bible w/ a 1800 number taking peoples money granting miracles
Well then, I deserve like +100 for putting up with your monkey ass then.....alot of things i say are to prove a point, making general statements like i posted the example can be taken many ways; i try to use them to backup a way of thinking.
Seriously, I know you are pushing buttons sometimes. I know. But you have to remember to give credit where credit is due too.
I want my +100 still.....
I would rather push buttons to get people THINKING then to have people agree w/ me... obviously you can see i not only enjoy it i thrive on it. As i stated my beliefs are built on knowledge and experiences, i refuse to follow blindly which is what i would say most people who are religious do. My parents are baptist so i'm baptist... If your right w/ your heaven/hell i would rather spend my life in hell b/c i didn't agree then spending in hell for following blindly.Well then, I deserve like +100 for putting up with your monkey ass then.....
Seriously, I know you are pushing buttons sometimes. I know. But you have to remember to give credit where credit is due too.
I want my +100 still.....
that is what i'm getting at... in your post you mentioned crimes against children, lieing, stealing... i am talking about LaVey satanism now, there is nothing in there that says that is what a satanist does (as a practice). Now is there satanist that lie, steal, or molest children? Yes, all people no matter the religion are capable of that. Furthermore it is against the Satanic Statements to hurt a child, so that is one part where i do not agree w/ everything you posted as truth.
well in the sense of worship as bowing down praising/praying... that is not 100% accurate. You can be a satanist and not physically worship the devil. Now like i stated earlier, self worship is basically the opposite of what christianity b/c you are putting yourself over divine being; and i did quote LaVey on this idea.
That is all true, but just b/c you indulge instead of abstain doesn't me you are worshiping satan. In that case every person who sin in the christian religion is worshiping satan.
ok break this down w/ an open mind... i know christians who would agress w/ these statements w/o knowing the source
Take what i put in bold there are many statements just like this... it is not a pretty statement but it is the true and is reality. You/Jaime/Me/etc.. all do the same thing, so how bad is it if you are more than capable of doing the same thing?
I don't refute the fact that the rituals to speak of satan, but you have to remember this is a Self Worship religion, you can make it what you want it to be basically, i can quote LaVey if need be on this, b/c he and the church flat come out and state that "they do not look for followers, but leaders"... if he wanted to start a cult he would of. It is based on freely thinking can doing what you desire; if thats praising the devil, eating ice cream, grave robbing, dressing in womens clothing, etc... you take it as you will.
I have read the S. Bible atleast 2x, from a reality stand point many of the ideas are on par w/ reality even w/ christians i know, keep in mind i'm not talking about the rituals.
If you want to dress all in black, wave a sword over a naked woman alter, and invoke the devil... but you can just as easily do it behind a fancy suit, interpeting the bible w/ a 1800 number taking peoples money granting miracles
All fine and Dandy. I still believe that he is an attention whore. He took an age old "practice" and tried to make it his OWN. It is like me re-writing the bible and claiming that I am Jesus Christ.
Satanism existed BEFORE Lavey. Rituals existed BEFORE the Satanic Bible which he wrote (or should i say, Plagiarized). Chants and Prayers were NOT invented by him. Invocation of the Devil was NOT his working.
To me he is just one person who took the whole thing mainstream. To try and be cool and be the "boogie-man". And to try and portray a different message behind his own propaganda.
If he did indeed take the phrase "Satanism" for his Church of "self worship" then he indeed took on the wrong name. He should have called it "Laveyism" or some shit like that. The Definition of Satanism is the worship of Satan. He just made up his "own" ideas behind the definition and try to sugarcoat it. But unless he chose to call it something else, it still is what it is. Sorry, Lavey... you do not have Dibs on the word. So by using it you basically know what it is and what it stands for.
I still do not get how it is about "Free worship" if the Devil and Satan are mentioned in his book.
That is like saying that you really believe in buddha while going to a catholic church with a Bible with "God" mentioned in it under your arms. Does not make sense. Why bother?
I got free clear tails with my ride.....
I don't think the basis behind it are Attn Whore syndrome; maybe i'm wrong. But that can easily be said about Jesus or Moses. Now are satanist attn whores? You bet your ass most probably are, b/c they try to have a chip on their shoulder like a skin head or kkk or religious cult leader. What people fear/disagree give light to your cause?
I do think it could of been named different, but i also see the idea behind how thinking freely and "do what thou wilt" would be a blasphemous idea hence "satanism". I mean take the EYE FOR AN EYE, that is a direct conflict w/ christianity, so if i asked you to imagine a religion that is the opposite of christianity you would say what Satanism, just b/c the mention of the devils doesn't mean praise has to be given. Shit your trying to give the devil too much credit a true satanist would be stronger than that; thats why self worship is better than worshiping the devil. Get my point?
There are similar beliefs where people believe in say Jesus, Allah, Jehova, Budda, all at the same time and they use them to fit what they need, i can't remember the name of this religion but it to me is very very similiar. You take what is needed to fit you beliefs.
I don't mean Attn whore syndrome like goes on here at ImportAtlanta (LOL), but to a sense it is the last sentence you posted. They feed on intimidation. like "whooaaa don't mess with da pentagram brotha.. 666 fo sho !! yeah !! devil up yo azzz boyeeee".
In seriousness now, Jesus or Moses do not feed on intimidation to prove a point, but through love and teachings. If Christ really wanted to "show off" he would have freed himself when he was crucified, and killed all his enemies. Satanist want to "prove" their powers (or their lack thereof) by making themself feel powerful by doing the most atrocious, shocking, cruel, antisocial etc. things possible. If you are feared you have power. And you can manipulate.
I do get your point to an extent. But just because you believe in self worship does not make you a Satanist. Just because you believe in "a God" does not make you a Christian. There are a lot of free-radical people, even atheist who do not believe in ANYTHING, yet do what they want. That does not classify them as Satanists.
However, if you follow the Satanic Bible..... think about it: If it walks, quacks and talks like a duck... u get my drift? If you have the Satanic Bible, attend the Black mass, and cite Satanic Rituals then one must believe that there is SOMETHING ELSE going on other than "self worship".
By your definition, YOU yourself, Paul SHOULD call yourself a Satanist, because you believe in worshipping one's self, doing what you want, eye for an eye and that man are equal to animals.
Exaclty, and you have proven my point here. Since you don't remember the name of the religion is evidently CLEAR that they DO NOT call themselves CHRISTIANS !! That is EXACTLY the same situation that LAVEY is in. He used the term "satanism" for his cult wrongly, if indeed he does not worship the devil. Those people would have been using the term "Christianity" wrongly, if they indeed are polytheists.....
I got free clear tails with my ride.....
by definition, you could say that, but i'm not one for labels... i guess you could say i am apart of Paulism and i worship myself. if you read the 9 statements ect you could see where tons of people fall into that, even christians (not smart christians). if we take it by my definition minus the rituals i would say more people than i can count would fall into this, but the stigma of the name w/ the rituals just kills it for me. i don't believe in god so how can i believe in satan? and the rituals for any religion reminds me of some nerdy kid playing D&D. if we were intended to be magicians we would be fighting for middle earth
Ya they are not christians... there is a name for these people but i just escapes me...Exaclty, and you have proven my point here. Since you don't remember the name of the religion is evidently CLEAR that they DO NOT call themselves CHRISTIANS !! That is EXACTLY the same situation that LAVEY is in. He used the term "satanism" for his cult wrongly, if indeed he does not worship the devil. Those people would have been using the term "Christianity" wrongly, if they indeed are polytheists.....
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