BOOST VS N/A DEBATE: ROUND 1

[BABY J]

Okay... there is usually no gray area here. Most peeps that I know are die-hard for either 1 or the other. There is no question that it's easier to make MORE TOTAL hp w/ boost. But every1 ALSO knows that if you take 2 identical motors w/ identical HP, the NA motor will outlclass the boosted motor at almost any RPM (this is VERY GENERAL. But is you want to flame that's fine. b/c that's what I want this tread to turn into.). Having been on both sides of the pond I like NA tuning the best, simply b/c it is more engineering (hard parts, not just theory) than boosted setups... at least in my mind it is.

So lb. for lb., let's say you take Dave @ S2 vs Dave @ Buschur (turbo tuning genious) and made them swap shops for 6 months... who would fall on their face the fastest... hmmmmm..........

[1439/2000]

Okay... there is usually no gray area here. Most peeps that I know are die-hard for either 1 or the other. There is no question that it's easier to make MORE TOTAL hp w/ boost. But every1 ALSO knows that if you take 2 identical motors w/ identical HP, the NA motor will outlclass the boosted motor at almost any RPM (this is VERY GENERAL. But is you want to flame that's fine. b/c that's what I want this tread to turn into.). Having been on both sides of the pond I like NA tuning the best, simply b/c it is more engineering (hard parts, not just theory) than boosted setups... at least in my mind it is.

So lb. for lb., let's say you take Dave @ S2 vs Dave @ Buschur (turbo tuning genious) and made them swap shops for 6 months... who would fall on their face the fastest... hmmmmm..........

?

Built 13b. 14000 rpms, crazy hp, decent torque.

Even rbs can rev to 11 and 12k.

Revs dont really say much about power. It depends on the motor. Old ass Honda vans like the "Life" revved to like 8k in the early 70s and put out like 60 something hp.

[BABY J]

The example I use is w/ my Spec V. There are boosted guys who have the same HP (if not more) and I pull on those guys when we play (all else being equal, like gearing, weight, etc). A 10% increase in throttle position on a high HP NA screamer vs a 10% increase in throttle position on the SAME motor (HP) feels VERY different. I do understand what you are saying though.

[1439/2000]

The example I use is w/ my Spec V. There are boosted guys who have the same HP (if not more) and I pull on those guys when we play (all else being equal, like gearing, weight, etc). A 10% increase in throttle position on a high HP NA screamer vs a 10% increase in throttle position on the SAME motor (HP) feels VERY different. I do understand what you are saying though.

Depends on the turbo and the rpm. Don't use b15s as an example though. lol They were probably shitty drivers.

Anyway from 2k to 3k on my car vs an all motor honda it might be close because my turbo isnt spooled.

From 5k to 6k its a different story. Even with a fast na car of comparable power I would say 20 pounds of compressed air wins.

[IntegraXTR]

N/A FTW!!!! Why? because I agree with you on the same hp thing, N/A owns!

[BABY J]

We are getting away from my original statements. Which requires more dedicated engineering (lb. per lb.)... N/A or FI? Also I can use my B15 as an example, just under 250 N/A, vs B15s w/ the PowerTech kit... I think it's a great example.

[1439/2000]

Nothing like building boost off the line on an awd car. The trany puts load on the turbo and you get almost instant spool. On an NA car you get instant bog.

For the Honda guys all motor or turbo, doesnt matter. You have to overcome objectives like wheelspin/hop anyway.

For AWD, without boost its no fun.

[BABY J]

We are not talking about AWD vs FWD. I said ALL THINGS EQUAL. You are dilluting my 1st post.

[1439/2000]

We are getting away from my original statements. Which requires more dedicated engineering (lb. per lb.)... N/A or FI? Also I can use my B15 as an example, just under 250 N/A, vs B15s w/ the PowerTech kit... I think it's a great example.

Hmm ok I think this is getting kind of retarded though. I think everyone would agree its harder to make more power NA. The QR sucks, lets use the SR.

Sr20ve can put close to 180 to the wheels stock. Stock sr20det about the same.

Boost controller, fuel pump, tuning, injectors, z32 maf= close to 300 hp on the DET.

VE car gets a header, Jim Wolf S4's/RAS/VS and Retainers, Pulsar ITBs, tuning, injectors = 215 hp


The VE revs higher to about 8500 but makes less power.

The det goes to 7500 but makes gobs more power.

[1439/2000]

We are not talking about AWD vs FWD. I said ALL THINGS EQUAL. You are dilluting my 1st post.

OK take a Galant GSX. 2.4 non turbo awd and a VR4 2.0 turbo awd.

Vr4 wins EVEN if the GGSX has the same amount of power.

It can't get to it as quick as it takes the turbo to spool.

[1439/2000]

I guess another thing I'm missing here is if you are taking cars with the same power amount NA vs Turbo then that turbo car sucks.

Take Vteckidds CRX. 237 hp high revving All motor.

Take another CRX, turbo it. Put down 237 hp.

Wow, then dont turbo your car. See what i'm saying?

I dont think forced induction numbers should be close to what you could get NA. If you spend a ton of money on an all motor beast and a decent amount on a turbo kit for your car and you end up with the same amount of power, then you have failed. You should ALWAYS be able to beat an NA car in a power battle if you have the same setup.

Now back to the original point. It depends on the setup entirely. If you have 237 hp NA and 237 boosted for example. When do you shift? When does your powerband start/stop?

[BABY J]

My argument is ENGINEERING PROWESS!!! KNOW HOW!!. The cars were only used as an example. I want to debate your points, but we can do that in a different thread... you are missing a lot of where I am attempting to take this thread.

[1439/2000]

My argument is ENGINEERING PROWESS!!! KNOW HOW!!. The cars were only used as an example. I want to debate your points, but we can do that in a different thread... you are missing a lot of where I am attempting to take this thread.

I think everyone would agree its harder to make more power NA.

What am I missing? It takes more ENGINEERING PROWESS to make a fast NA 4 cylinder.

[BABY J]

Why do you say that? There are more tuning variables in FI:

compressor size
A/R size
boost pressure
dynamic CRs
etc.

(I actually agree with you, I am just playing devil's advocate to see if I may learn something here)

[1439/2000]

Why do you say that? There are more tuning variables in FI:

compressor size
A/R size
boost pressure
dynamic CRs
etc.

(I actually agree with you, I am just playing devil's advocate to see if I may learn something here)

The stuff you listed is easy to sort out though.

Low compression, more fuel, more boost= more power.

You take a 1g DSM for example. 7.8 to 1 CR stock. Perfect.

50 trim, 720cc, fuel pump, SAFC, 2g maf. = 350 to the wheels.

You dont even have to mess with timing really. You just pull fuel and even peg rich its still putting over 100 more hp at the crank than stock.

Listing A/R size and boost pressure and stuff like that is not really a tuning variable. You buy a decent sized turbo for the application. 2 liters you could spool a decent sized turbo. 50 trim for example. You take a wideband and increase boost until maybe 5% knock showing on like a datalogger and the air/fuel is 12 to 1 (or less until you get on a dyno if youd like).

Its just easier with boost.

Now with an NA car. You have to measure head gaskets and bore this and that and get these pistons to have this compression ratio and all that shit. Thats where it gets complicated.

[BABY J]

So is there NE1 who thinks that it takes more engineering prowess to go FI??

[Stormhammer]

it takes more to go N/A - like 1439 said, you'd have to do careful and exacting measurements because you are generally dealing with the block - you can do some simple bolt ons, but to make serious HP you have to do some serious engineering on N/A

with FI, hell... - you do a few things the same as N/A ( in some upgrade aspects in general ) - and then you just put on a big ass turbo and hellloooo

I will say this, and its generally known, N/A has a smoother power band than FI


but if you want some examples of diff. engineering in regards to FI, look at mine and 1439's car

we both have Super16G's ( or Big16G's - 1mm difference ) - and if I recall he boosts @ 18psi - but he's at full boost at 5k, whereas mine is fully spooled by 3500 @ 18psi - and its in that that engineering prowess I believe would come in handy

[Hondatwin23]

i think its more for FI. NA in my thoughts(listen bitches MY THOUGHTS) is using the basic make up for a car to run and go a little extreme with it. i.e pistons for more of a bang, maybe rods for a more strength under hard conditions.more air and fuel and bam u got urself a street monster.
Now F.I. u have to find the right size turbo a good manifold, right size injectors TUNING ! even though NA guys Need tuning but i think FI its a little more critical and plus once u reach u max power with NA thats it ! F.I. u turn the boost up baby !

[Ludester]

They both have there pros and cons. FI has the greater power potiential out of the two. But there is something about N/A that is just raw when your actually making power.

As far as tuning being a little more critical for FI I have disagree with that one. Try building a 14:1 CR n/a engine.... Detonations is a bitch!

[TallGuy]

For me it more of a streetability Issue because even though it would be fun to have a b18c putting down 240hp in NA form i dont think it would be that great of a street car. now a 240hp FI b18c would be more practical because you dont need the huge cams, high CR, and 100 pluse octain fuel.