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Thread: BOOST VS N/A DEBATE: ROUND 1

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    Default BOOST VS N/A DEBATE: ROUND 1

    Okay... there is usually no gray area here. Most peeps that I know are die-hard for either 1 or the other. There is no question that it's easier to make MORE TOTAL hp w/ boost. But every1 ALSO knows that if you take 2 identical motors w/ identical HP, the NA motor will outlclass the boosted motor at almost any RPM (this is VERY GENERAL. But is you want to flame that's fine. b/c that's what I want this tread to turn into.). Having been on both sides of the pond I like NA tuning the best, simply b/c it is more engineering (hard parts, not just theory) than boosted setups... at least in my mind it is.

    So lb. for lb., let's say you take Dave @ S2 vs Dave @ Buschur (turbo tuning genious) and made them swap shops for 6 months... who would fall on their face the fastest... hmmmmm..........
    "I'm not a gynecologist... but I'll take a look."


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    Jay G. 1439/2000's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by BABY J
    Okay... there is usually no gray area here. Most peeps that I know are die-hard for either 1 or the other. There is no question that it's easier to make MORE TOTAL hp w/ boost. But every1 ALSO knows that if you take 2 identical motors w/ identical HP, the NA motor will outlclass the boosted motor at almost any RPM (this is VERY GENERAL. But is you want to flame that's fine. b/c that's what I want this tread to turn into.). Having been on both sides of the pond I like NA tuning the best, simply b/c it is more engineering (hard parts, not just theory) than boosted setups... at least in my mind it is.

    So lb. for lb., let's say you take Dave @ S2 vs Dave @ Buschur (turbo tuning genious) and made them swap shops for 6 months... who would fall on their face the fastest... hmmmmm..........
    ?

    Built 13b. 14000 rpms, crazy hp, decent torque.

    Even rbs can rev to 11 and 12k.

    Revs dont really say much about power. It depends on the motor. Old ass Honda vans like the "Life" revved to like 8k in the early 70s and put out like 60 something hp.

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    The example I use is w/ my Spec V. There are boosted guys who have the same HP (if not more) and I pull on those guys when we play (all else being equal, like gearing, weight, etc). A 10% increase in throttle position on a high HP NA screamer vs a 10% increase in throttle position on the SAME motor (HP) feels VERY different. I do understand what you are saying though.
    "I'm not a gynecologist... but I'll take a look."


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    Jay G. 1439/2000's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by BABY J
    The example I use is w/ my Spec V. There are boosted guys who have the same HP (if not more) and I pull on those guys when we play (all else being equal, like gearing, weight, etc). A 10% increase in throttle position on a high HP NA screamer vs a 10% increase in throttle position on the SAME motor (HP) feels VERY different. I do understand what you are saying though.

    Depends on the turbo and the rpm. Don't use b15s as an example though. lol They were probably shitty drivers.

    Anyway from 2k to 3k on my car vs an all motor honda it might be close because my turbo isnt spooled.

    From 5k to 6k its a different story. Even with a fast na car of comparable power I would say 20 pounds of compressed air wins.

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    N/A FTW!!!! Why? because I agree with you on the same hp thing, N/A owns!

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    We are getting away from my original statements. Which requires more dedicated engineering (lb. per lb.)... N/A or FI? Also I can use my B15 as an example, just under 250 N/A, vs B15s w/ the PowerTech kit... I think it's a great example.
    "I'm not a gynecologist... but I'll take a look."


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    Jay G. 1439/2000's Avatar
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    Nothing like building boost off the line on an awd car. The trany puts load on the turbo and you get almost instant spool. On an NA car you get instant bog.

    For the Honda guys all motor or turbo, doesnt matter. You have to overcome objectives like wheelspin/hop anyway.

    For AWD, without boost its no fun.

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    We are not talking about AWD vs FWD. I said ALL THINGS EQUAL. You are dilluting my 1st post.
    "I'm not a gynecologist... but I'll take a look."


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    Jay G. 1439/2000's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by BABY J
    We are getting away from my original statements. Which requires more dedicated engineering (lb. per lb.)... N/A or FI? Also I can use my B15 as an example, just under 250 N/A, vs B15s w/ the PowerTech kit... I think it's a great example.
    Hmm ok I think this is getting kind of retarded though. I think everyone would agree its harder to make more power NA. The QR sucks, lets use the SR.

    Sr20ve can put close to 180 to the wheels stock. Stock sr20det about the same.

    Boost controller, fuel pump, tuning, injectors, z32 maf= close to 300 hp on the DET.

    VE car gets a header, Jim Wolf S4's/RAS/VS and Retainers, Pulsar ITBs, tuning, injectors = 215 hp


    The VE revs higher to about 8500 but makes less power.

    The det goes to 7500 but makes gobs more power.

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    Jay G. 1439/2000's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by BABY J
    We are not talking about AWD vs FWD. I said ALL THINGS EQUAL. You are dilluting my 1st post.
    OK take a Galant GSX. 2.4 non turbo awd and a VR4 2.0 turbo awd.

    Vr4 wins EVEN if the GGSX has the same amount of power.

    It can't get to it as quick as it takes the turbo to spool.

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    Jay G. 1439/2000's Avatar
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    I guess another thing I'm missing here is if you are taking cars with the same power amount NA vs Turbo then that turbo car sucks.

    Take Vteckidds CRX. 237 hp high revving All motor.

    Take another CRX, turbo it. Put down 237 hp.

    Wow, then dont turbo your car. See what i'm saying?

    I dont think forced induction numbers should be close to what you could get NA. If you spend a ton of money on an all motor beast and a decent amount on a turbo kit for your car and you end up with the same amount of power, then you have failed. You should ALWAYS be able to beat an NA car in a power battle if you have the same setup.

    Now back to the original point. It depends on the setup entirely. If you have 237 hp NA and 237 boosted for example. When do you shift? When does your powerband start/stop?

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    My argument is ENGINEERING PROWESS!!! KNOW HOW!!. The cars were only used as an example. I want to debate your points, but we can do that in a different thread... you are missing a lot of where I am attempting to take this thread.
    "I'm not a gynecologist... but I'll take a look."


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    Jay G. 1439/2000's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by BABY J
    My argument is ENGINEERING PROWESS!!! KNOW HOW!!. The cars were only used as an example. I want to debate your points, but we can do that in a different thread... you are missing a lot of where I am attempting to take this thread.
    Quote Originally Posted by 1439/2000
    I think everyone would agree its harder to make more power NA.
    What am I missing? It takes more ENGINEERING PROWESS to make a fast NA 4 cylinder.

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    Why do you say that? There are more tuning variables in FI:

    compressor size
    A/R size
    boost pressure
    dynamic CRs
    etc.

    (I actually agree with you, I am just playing devil's advocate to see if I may learn something here)
    "I'm not a gynecologist... but I'll take a look."


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    Jay G. 1439/2000's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by BABY J
    Why do you say that? There are more tuning variables in FI:

    compressor size
    A/R size
    boost pressure
    dynamic CRs
    etc.


    (I actually agree with you, I am just playing devil's advocate to see if I may learn something here)

    The stuff you listed is easy to sort out though.

    Low compression, more fuel, more boost= more power.

    You take a 1g DSM for example. 7.8 to 1 CR stock. Perfect.

    50 trim, 720cc, fuel pump, SAFC, 2g maf. = 350 to the wheels.

    You dont even have to mess with timing really. You just pull fuel and even peg rich its still putting over 100 more hp at the crank than stock.

    Listing A/R size and boost pressure and stuff like that is not really a tuning variable. You buy a decent sized turbo for the application. 2 liters you could spool a decent sized turbo. 50 trim for example. You take a wideband and increase boost until maybe 5% knock showing on like a datalogger and the air/fuel is 12 to 1 (or less until you get on a dyno if youd like).

    Its just easier with boost.

    Now with an NA car. You have to measure head gaskets and bore this and that and get these pistons to have this compression ratio and all that shit. Thats where it gets complicated.

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    So is there NE1 who thinks that it takes more engineering prowess to go FI??
    "I'm not a gynecologist... but I'll take a look."


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    look here, bish Stormhammer's Avatar
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    it takes more to go N/A - like 1439 said, you'd have to do careful and exacting measurements because you are generally dealing with the block - you can do some simple bolt ons, but to make serious HP you have to do some serious engineering on N/A

    with FI, hell... - you do a few things the same as N/A ( in some upgrade aspects in general ) - and then you just put on a big ass turbo and hellloooo

    I will say this, and its generally known, N/A has a smoother power band than FI


    but if you want some examples of diff. engineering in regards to FI, look at mine and 1439's car

    we both have Super16G's ( or Big16G's - 1mm difference ) - and if I recall he boosts @ 18psi - but he's at full boost at 5k, whereas mine is fully spooled by 3500 @ 18psi - and its in that that engineering prowess I believe would come in handy


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    i think its more for FI. NA in my thoughts(listen bitches MY THOUGHTS) is using the basic make up for a car to run and go a little extreme with it. i.e pistons for more of a bang, maybe rods for a more strength under hard conditions.more air and fuel and bam u got urself a street monster.
    Now F.I. u have to find the right size turbo a good manifold, right size injectors TUNING ! even though NA guys Need tuning but i think FI its a little more critical and plus once u reach u max power with NA thats it ! F.I. u turn the boost up baby !
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    They both have there pros and cons. FI has the greater power potiential out of the two. But there is something about N/A that is just raw when your actually making power.

    As far as tuning being a little more critical for FI I have disagree with that one. Try building a 14:1 CR n/a engine.... Detonations is a bitch!

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    For me it more of a streetability Issue because even though it would be fun to have a b18c putting down 240hp in NA form i dont think it would be that great of a street car. now a 240hp FI b18c would be more practical because you dont need the huge cams, high CR, and 100 pluse octain fuel.

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    Quote Originally Posted by Stormhammer
    it takes more to go N/A - like 1439 said, you'd have to do careful and exacting measurements because you are generally dealing with the block - you can do some simple bolt ons, but to make serious HP you have to do some serious engineering on N/A

    with FI, hell... - you do a few things the same as N/A ( in some upgrade aspects in general ) - and then you just put on a big ass turbo and hellloooo

    I will say this, and its generally known, N/A has a smoother power band than FI


    but if you want some examples of diff. engineering in regards to FI, look at mine and 1439's car

    we both have Super16G's ( or Big16G's - 1mm difference ) - and if I recall he boosts @ 18psi - but he's at full boost at 5k, whereas mine is fully spooled by 3500 @ 18psi - and its in that that engineering prowess I believe would come in handy
    Actually I have a b16g with a 20g wheel make 20-21 psi and hit full at like 3800 -4000. Still too late but spools up fast with a brake boost or launch.

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    look here, bish Stormhammer's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by 1439/2000
    Actually I have a b16g with a 20g wheel make 20-21 psi and hit full at like 3800 -4000. Still too late but spools up fast with a brake boost or launch.
    boost lag is a bitch lol - still, its always nice to be peeling out all the way into 3rd gear @ 6k


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    Quote Originally Posted by Stormhammer
    boost lag is a bitch lol - still, its always nice to be peeling out all the way into 3rd gear @ 6k
    I wouldnt know with this car. This is the only car I've had lag in in bad enough.

    I do wheel hop sometimes though. At night when the air is dense I can spin half of 1st.

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    Its all about preference. there are ALOT of factors not be accounted for either.

    i will Say that any turbo car making even 50more whp more than an NA car wont stand a chance.

    IE My 237whp/160TQ CRX vs lets say, GGPIS3s Lexus. He baselines 288whp/270TQ on our dyno without nitrous. in that video of me vs him off bottle you can see me slowly pull him an he was making WAY more power. Why did i win?

    1) I weigh 1800lbs vs his 3000+lbs
    2) he redlines at 6500rpms, i redline at 9500rpm

    I have much more useuable powerband, an much logner gearing. remember, no matter what happens in a highway pull, the LONGer you can stay in gear the faster you will be. YOU LOSE POWER AN POSITION IN A RACE WHEN YOU SHIFT, no way around it.

    What it comes down to is how the car is setup. My car is a TIN CAN that i bet NONE of you would drive everyday, its as bare bones as it gets, NO ac, NO interior, no tar on the floorbaord, no firewall mat,no stereo, no nothing. Dan can cruise with the AC an PS on an full interior with 3 bitches in the back with the sunroof open blasting his MP3 player.

    Usually, for an NA car to be fast you got to be LIGHT no matter what. no one builds an NA accord, shit is heavy, you have to built a chassis that supports the power.

    I get customers ALL THE TIME that come in with SOHC 92-95 civics or EKs. They want to do a swap. the first thing i ask them is "why do you want to swap?" their response is usuall "cause i want to be faster". i ask them their ultimate goal an most of the time the answer is they want a fast street car, not a race car, not a lot of maintanence for the most affordable price.

    i reccomend to them to turbo their D series. They could do a GSR swap for $4000 an make 155whp/125TQ OR they could turbo their D series and make 185whp/175TQ with our kit for $3500.

    which car is faster? the TURBO D all day long.

    I always reccomend TURBO to the heavier chassis guys like 99-00 Civic Sis, DC2s, etc. Its just hard for them to be THAT much faster with an all motor build because they are already handicapped by their weight. the last thin i want is someone spending their hard earned money an driving away thinking "man, this really isnt that much faster". i want them to come back with a smile on their face saying "holy shit its way faster than i ever thought." usually the turbo does that more than the NA.

    Im an all motor fanatic, its what i like. to me, its not something that everyone does or CAN do. Its an art, you dont make the power in an NA car, you cant simply just "up the boost". an there is no better feeling than beating up on a turbo car or a V8 with a 4 cylinder that has no power adder.

    But as i said, it costs ALOT an the HP/Dollar sucks so its not for everyone.
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    look here, bish Stormhammer's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by 1439/2000
    I wouldnt know with this car. This is the only car I've had lag in in bad enough.

    I do wheel hop sometimes though. At night when the air is dense I can spin half of 1st.
    eh, I had crappy tires - they're hard so they spin easily lol - althought for a 16G I'd say around 3500 is pretty average - its why I have a BOV bypass as my "anti-lag" plus as weird as it sounds but I dont like hearing a psssshtt everytime I let off the gas (esp in traffic, lame I know) but its beautiful for sleepiness


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    Quote Originally Posted by Hondatwin23
    even though NA guys Need tuning but i think FI its a little more critical and plus once u reach u max power with NA thats it ! F.I. u turn the boost up baby !
    I disagree. I think tuning for HARD PARTS is harder than tuning FI. All you need is "more" when it comes to FI. More boost?? Need more fuel. More fuel/boost? Need less total timing. MORE MORE MORE. That's not very definitive. N/A is more of an EXACT science (so is FI, but just for the sake of the debate) in my mind... going through 5 different headers for 3 - 4 WHP is something a lotta FI guys do not understand. What the cam card in my wallet says, they can really careless about. Throw more boost at it, and it'll work. FI tuners really can careless what cams you are running... to them (I have spoken to a few) they are really only thinking of a few things:

    --> can the block handle the boost
    --> can the fuel match the psi
    --> can the timing (less total timing from base) not detonate at that boost level
    --> heat (run rich, less power, but cooler engine)

    That's being VERY generic (not tryna knock any FI tuners), but that's basically the jist. REAL N/A tuners have to have a more intricate knowledge of ENGINES and how/why/where they make power, where a FI tuner will have a more intricate knowledge of turbo/housing/wheel selection. A lot of times even this is already done for them... you can google a compressor map for any production engine... the "recipe" is there. All you do from there is slowly up the boost, check the A/F and keep timing under control. You will not find those "recipes" for a serious N/A beast.
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    Quote Originally Posted by vteckidd
    ... i will Say that any turbo car making even 50more whp more than an NA car wont stand a chance.
    Great point Mike... and to amplify this I will quote MYSELF from another old thread:

    Quote Originally Posted by BABY J
    ... the PTI turbo is pretty popular right now --> that's getting the Spec V guys around 230 wheel. I KILL those guys at the track and on the street though... BIG time, not even close. What side of town you on? We can "take a ride" in my Spec... I will show you (using the AFC) what just a 5% increase in throttle postion feels like on a 250whp N/A beast... at uhhh, we'll say 80mph... or 100mph. And then we can get my boy's classic SEr (boosted jdm sr20, 20psi) and see what a turbo car does at 10% throttle increase at the MPH of your choice!! I think you would guess DEAD wrong on what your ass-dyno would suspect as the best bang. Simply stated, I have waxed a LOT of turbo cars... and if the fun wasn't limited to 7800rpms (PISTON SPEED IS THE BIGGEST PROB WITH THE QR25... IT'S INSANE... MAKES FOR TONS-O-TORQUE THOUGH AND A NICE BROAD POWER BAND)...

    Quote Originally Posted by vteckidd
    ... But as i said, it costs ALOT an the HP/Dollar sucks so its not for everyone.
    True, in terms of "bang for the buck" hell yeah go FI. It's gonna almost always "harder" and take more engineering to be fast/faster NA.
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    Jay G. 1439/2000's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by Stormhammer
    eh, I had crappy tires - they're hard so they spin easily lol - althought for a 16G I'd say around 3500 is pretty average - its why I have a BOV bypass as my "anti-lag" plus as weird as it sounds but I dont like hearing a psssshtt everytime I let off the gas (esp in traffic, lame I know) but its beautiful for sleepiness
    My bov is quiet, HKS without an insert vented but I have an open wastegate dump. Its loud.

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    Senior Member 99SI's Avatar
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    When considering NA volumetric efficiency comes into play greatly. Also, in an all motor head you have to consider peak flow characteristics as well as flow velocity. Get one or the other wrong and you don't make the power. Get them both right and you have a great power curve and a much more "efficient" engine at using the parts you attach. Valve overlap and exhaust scavenging have to be considered when determining optimal primaries, secondaries, collector, as well as length of a header. Again, NA is much more of a science that I have not even begun to scratch the surface of. That's why when having a head ported for a serious NA build you have to find the right person to do it. Hell anyone can take and enlarge ports, deshroud chambers, do bowl work just to make them bigger. But knowing how to do it where you maintain optimum velocity of the intake charge and optimal scavening properties is where the real pros earn their money.

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    Quote Originally Posted by Ludester
    They both have there pros and cons. FI has the greater power potiential out of the two. But there is something about N/A that is just raw when your actually making power.

    As far as tuning being a little more critical for FI I have disagree with that one. Try building a 14:1 CR n/a engine.... Detonations is a bitch!
    thats true soo true. my friend had a 14:5 cr and tuning for him was a pain in the ass
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    Jay G. 1439/2000's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by Hondatwin23
    thats true soo true. my friend had a 14:5 cr and tuning for him was a pain in the ass
    On a street car? If so thats retarded. Have fun putting race gas in all the time!

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    he actually did put race gas in it. its only retarded if ur not will to do it urself but to each his own
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    12:5:1 is about the limits of pump gas safely. 14:5 is crazy for a street-driven N/A or boosted engine. Wow.
    "I'm not a gynecologist... but I'll take a look."


  34. #34
    Patience Pays...
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    I can only speak on the VQ engine since that is what I have experience with.

    Boost vs N/A.. for the sheer power I'll go with boost but the fun factor went with N/A. Putting down 400+hp boosted was nice at first but it got old and predictable. N/a the sound and the experience was unreal.. with basically a lightweight clutch and flywheel assembly the car was fun but somewhat hard to drive.

  35. #35
    YELLOW POWER !!! The Golden Child's Avatar
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    hmmm interesting thread makes me sort of understand the difference ..
    NY STAY HIGH !!!

  36. #36
    still searching! Hondatwin23's Avatar
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    yea dude was crazy and i was just the same to help him built such a thing.
    H23 vtec with 14:5 cr. crazy but fun a hell to drive. did i mention it was in a eg coupe.
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    1997 w/1999 civic w/ Built GSR...FS/FT

  37. #37
    Jay G. 1439/2000's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by Hondatwin23
    he actually did put race gas in it. its only retarded if ur not will to do it urself but to each his own
    I dont understand what you mean. I have low compression because my car is turbo. I don't understand why the ratio is so high for the street. Race gas everyday is dumb.

  38. #38
    look here, bish Stormhammer's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by BABY J
    I disagree. I think tuning for HARD PARTS is harder than tuning FI. All you need is "more" when it comes to FI. More boost?? Need more fuel. More fuel/boost? Need less total timing. MORE MORE MORE. That's not very definitive. N/A is more of an EXACT science (so is FI, but just for the sake of the debate) in my mind... going through 5 different headers for 3 - 4 WHP is something a lotta FI guys do not understand. What the cam card in my wallet says, they can really careless about. Throw more boost at it, and it'll work. FI tuners really can careless what cams you are running... to them (I have spoken to a few) they are really only thinking of a few things:

    --> can the block handle the boost
    --> can the fuel match the psi
    --> can the timing (less total timing from base) not detonate at that boost level
    --> heat (run rich, less power, but cooler engine)

    That's being VERY generic (not tryna knock any FI tuners), but that's basically the jist. REAL N/A tuners have to have a more intricate knowledge of ENGINES and how/why/where they make power, where a FI tuner will have a more intricate knowledge of turbo/housing/wheel selection. A lot of times even this is already done for them... you can google a compressor map for any production engine... the "recipe" is there. All you do from there is slowly up the boost, check the A/F and keep timing under control. You will not find those "recipes" for a serious N/A beast.
    you forgot one of the BIGGEST things that FI people also look into

    heat heat heat - how do we make it run cooler without losing HP

    and how do we prevent as much turbo lag as possible


    ̿' ̿'\̵͇̿̿\з=(•̪●)=ε/̵͇̿̿/'̿'̿ ̿

  39. #39
    Virginity Cure BABY J's Avatar
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    scroll up, "heat" was my 4th arrow "-->". But it prolly deserves to be up higher in the list.
    "I'm not a gynecologist... but I'll take a look."


  40. #40
    To 942JZGTE 93H22ACX's Avatar
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    I dont think anyone can just put a big turbo on make huge power...i mean you can but u might not be too fast LOL. It depends on efficient the motor build up is also. And its not really about peak power in turbo applications...its both with a usable powerband. meaning... having a broad power band and dropping into it during an upshift. Unless you go with a huge turbo and a huge shot of nitrous then thats another story.

    I can say that with a 187whp my hatch has ran 12's and i know it takes a little bit more power for a turbo car but..... its because of weigh differences.

    all motor cars cant be faster than a turbo car if both are the same wight, same driver, same power output (if the power band is usuable as i mentioned above).

    Reason being, the turbo car will have more torque, and torque + hp should move the car faster than an NA car IMO.

    Its just as hard to get a turbo car to go fast because you have to get parts that work well with ur motor...sure its easy to get peak power but to get parts that give u a good power band + peak power is hard.

    NA, its the same way but cost more to make power. I like turbo cause power to $$ wise, its a better result.

    But only way to find out is to race a turbo and na car with same hp and weight.

    now i know you guys might be thinking.. look at clutch masters cars...its only making around 300whp and running 9's compare to a turbo car making 650+whp running 9's. but you have to think about the weight difference beteween the two, especially chassis wise.
    Last edited by 93H22ACX; 05-24-2006 at 08:36 AM.
    94 Supra= 500rwhp

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