how it applies to me. i understood perfectly what you said.Originally Posted by Romeyo07
how it applies to me. i understood perfectly what you said.
geezz this is so sad i cant talk about something seriouse without someone being an idiot about stuff.
he Romeo i saved you to my yahoo so just except anytime
go back and read sweety ...you asked who i was talkin to. i told you. and then you want to take offence after you called me a dickstick or somethin. yeaaa sure ...okaylook, u snapped first telling me u weren't even talkin to me, like i had no business replying to a public post in a public forum? whatever, suit urself if ignorance is ur thing
just leave it be id rather talk about the topic tthan sit here and argue about this stupid mess you misunderstood
hey I added you too...I'm on from 7-5 everyday. Feel free to hit me up.
feel free to ask any questions (that is, if you want answers). I'll be more than happy to help clarify how what I said and what I believe applies to you.
hey romeo do it again cause i clicked the wrong button.
preciate the offer man, always good to know/speak with someone who honestly believes what they believe and knows what they believe
I'm on aim, yahoo and msn.
shoot I'll even buy lunch if need be.
Ahh yes...you must subscribe to the false teaching of "once saved always saved"...thats fine by me but NOT Biblical.
Saul wasnt "covered by the blood" BECAUSE he obviously died UNREPENTED.
The reason one can know this is that if one truly REPENTs of sin, they wont end their life by killing themselves, which is a sin.
No unrepentant sinner will ever enter heaven. The Bible teaches that clearly...maybe you havent found that yet.
"The soul that sinneth, it shall DIE......" (forever)
If you ask a Biblical question from me, expect to get the Bible as part of the answer.
First, theres no evidence that Hitler ever repented for anything. Secondly. the evidence STRONGLY suggests he did not. Thirdly, NO ONE is able to say who is "right with God" except for God Himself.i do understand all the things that you have to be true to your heart when you ask for forgiviness. but ok....hitler for example. you know what he had done. but yet lets say 2 weeks before he died he was true when he meant that he was sorry for the awful things he had done and yadda yadda yadda.........then someone kills him. WILL HE GO TO HEAVEN??
As to your question, God takes no peasure in the destruction of the wicked unrepentant sinner. He will forgive anyone....even YOU, even ME.
Its odd how some (maybe not you) even use Gods infinte mercy "against" Him when they should be THANKFUL for it! Without it, NONE of US would exist.
People like Hitler are but one individual in the big picture of the problem when it comes to sin.
Those people would have no way of knowing whether this person was "right with God". The thing one must remember is that God judges on the INTENTIONS of the HEART...Not just what was said last. If ones INTENTION is to keep sinning as long as possible its safe to say they wont be saved. If they are TRULY sorry and repent before God in sincerity then they may be saved.....regardless of their sin.another example. i cannot remember who this killer was, but he apparantly killed over a dozen pple. but the day of his death which he was put in the chair. the pple who were the witnesses saw him pray and ask for forgiveness and the witnesses swore up and down even ( strong belief chirstians) that he went to heaven.
so whats the difference you go to heaven if you ask for forgivness a couple of days before you die? or you will go to heaven no matter what time as long as you ask for forgiviness before you die?
We are fortunate to even exist. God could have wiped out mankind after the first sin. Instead, He sent His Son to die in our stead and give EVERY human that WANTS to live, eternal life. To obtain that gift one must only REPENT, TURN FROM their sin, and acknowlege Christ as their Saviour. Christ explained that process to a man He met, He told him to be "born again"....that is to say, repent, turn from sin, and by the POWER OF GOD live a new life.i know i have like 5 questions in one but....is the purpose of life as a christian to live good and pray and always ask for forgivness jus so we can go to heaven? is living a punishment so we can show god that we are loyal and then when we show that we are ( though life) we go to heaven to be with god?
Our life on earth, the fruits of it, show each day whether we walk with God or not. God will make an utter end of sin. BUT, He wishes to save all that desire Him IF they repent. Our actions, our deeds, our intentions (heart) show whether we truly have that desire and prove to all the Universe that God is merciful in saving us, a bunch of wretched sinners.
Belief in the Word of God is something all must wrestle with. Many, if not most, do not believe in God or His Word. However, the majority consensus on any fact changes nothing with regard to that fact.and how can you actualy believe all the stories like lusapher(sorry cant spell it) the devil and god how they are against each other.why out of all things is he a snake? why not a snail or a bird? jus for that my grandmother hates snake anything!! because of the bible. and they are just as deadly as any other animal? alot of pple say " well thats just how it is" " god made it like that and thats what the book says" but these days pple dont believe everything that is written in a book. and bibbles are re-made every few years. How do you really know what Jesus has really done or said.
like that one guy that was on Oprah that wrote a fiction book and he swore up and down it was still a non-fiction book. pple had an outrage it was all over the news and cnn.
im not against christianity or any religion but alot ...and i mean alot of pple who are believe that any other religion is a fake and is not the true story....they even feel offensive when a person says they are catholic or muslim like they are beneath them.
but isnt there a famous quote " He who wins the war, writes the book"
If one wants to know whether Gods Word is true one only needs to HONESTLY SEEK to know. I can tell you from my own experience...they WILL find out.God desires that we seek Him so that He can reveal Himself to us personally in a way that reaches and touches us as individuals. Some here have testified that certain sinful addictions and habits they used to be plagued with they no longer struggle with. God has touched them in a personal way. He can do the same for ANYONE.
can't say i agree with u here, here's an excerpt taken from bible.com about suicide:Ahh yes...you must subscribe to the false teaching of "once saved always saved"...thats fine by me but NOT Biblical.
Saul wasnt "covered by the blood" BECAUSE he obviously died UNREPENTED.
The reason one can know this is that if one truly REPENTs of sin, they wont end their life by killing themselves, which is a sin.
No unrepentant sinner will ever enter heaven. The Bible teaches that clearly...maybe you havent found that yet.
"The soul that sinneth, it shall DIE......" (forever)
doesn't look to me that it's written in written in stone anywhere about whether one goes to hell for sure by committing suicide.Do all those who kill themselves go to Hell?
Some people believe that all who commit suicide go immediately to Hell. However, the Bible never says if this is the case. The Bible is silent on this issue. God probably did not address it in black in white for a good reason. If we knew that we would still go to Heaven if we killed ourselves, there would probably be a lot more suicides taking place than there already are. However, if we knew that all who killed themselves were automatically banished to Hell, no matter what their situation, it may be too much for the grief-stricken family and friends to bear. Murder and suicide are not unpardonable sins. The only unforgivable sins are rejecting Christ (Mark 16:16) and blaspheming the Holy Spirit.
(Mark 3:28-29 KJV) Verily I say unto you, All sins shall be forgiven unto the sons of men, and blasphemies wherewith soever they shall blaspheme: But he that shall blaspheme against the Holy Ghost hath never forgiveness, but is in danger of eternal damnation:
All other sins can be forgiven. However, anyone contemplating suicide may be in danger of going to Hell, as their relationship with the Lord is not intact at that point. Those who would consider suicide may have a severed relationship with Christ and therefore they would enter the real Hell--which is worse than the hellish feelings they are experiencing at the momen
Youre presuming one can ask in advance for forgiveness of a sin they are about to commit. Sorry friend, that isnt Biblical.
Perhaps if you study REPENTANCE instead of the specific sin you'll come to understand this.
Your last act cannot be a sin, IF you expect to be saved.
You are correct about any sin being forgivable except blaspeheming the Holy Spirit.
Another things to consider....to blaspheme the Holy Spirit is to REFUSE to LISTEN to your concience, which is the voice of God within you.
If one commits suicide theyre not listening to their concience....or God.
i like what you said ! its more than forgivng its aknowledgeing that he sent his only son to die on the cross for you, sorry for bad spelling
i could post alot in here but im not on here enough to defend my points so just yeah. this is gonna turn out to be a long thread and alot of ppl are gonna be mad.
here's another excerpt i found from someone asking a question, i don't care so much what they're saying other than the example used:
what do u think about this?From my studies, the only thing that would send us to Hell would be to deny Jesus as our Savior. But that even in believing Jesus as our Savior does not mean we will be perfect even in death or even strong in life no matter how hard we want to we strong in life.
I have wondered about this because I know of a Christian who loved Jesus with all her heart and suffered from co-dependency in a dysfunctional home. She suffered for so long and asked Jesus so carry her into heaven to live with Him as she sliced her wrists 3 1/2 inches on one wrist, 3 inches on the other wrist and 4 inches in the upper thigh. She wrote that her Hell was on earth and that she couldn't stand one more day of it. She wrote that she prayed to God, as she performed her murder on herself, that He would forgive her for this sin as He had forgiven her of the others she had done in the past. She stated that the Bible says that He will not allow one to stand more than one can bear and that He is our strength. She stated that she wasn't strong--knowing the Lord is strong but not her and asked to be carried to heaven to live with Him from that moment on.
I think its wishful dreams and nonsense. Sorry.
As I said, study repentance. Therin lies your answer.
The spirit of true repentance doesnt lead one to ignore God and take ones own life. If one is truly repentant and truly believes in God they will wait on Him to deliver them from whatever their circumstances. Suicide will never be an option!
To be absolutely blunt, suicide is murder of ones self. It also demonstrates that the committer of such an act has no faith, is unbeliving and is fearful.
The Bible is quite clear about the fate of those who have no faith in God and who do not REPENT, TURN AWAY FROM and CEASE from those sinful acts.....
But the fearful, and unbelieving, and the abominable, and murderers, and whoremongers, and sorcerers, and idolaters, and all liars, shall have their part in the lake which burneth with fire and brimstone: which is the second death. Rev 21:8
I repented when I accepted Jesus, and from that moment I am covered by his blood. I do not have to repent and confess that Jesus is my Lord on a daily basis. If you can lose your salvation, then his death was in vain. He was the perfect sacrifice, which only needed to happen once. Would he have to die again? His death is why its no longer necessary to make sacrifices to cover our sins. If the case is that you must repent after every sin, then what is to happen to those faithful Christians that sin not knowing? Their dedication to Christ meant nothing because they sinned. How would one then know for sure they're going to heaven if they're constantly worried they did something and now they can't go.Ahh yes...you must subscribe to the false teaching of "once saved always saved"...thats fine by me but NOT Biblical.
Saul wasnt "covered by the blood" BECAUSE he obviously died UNREPENTED.
The reason one can know this is that if one truly REPENTs of sin, they wont end their life by killing themselves, which is a sin.
No unrepentant sinner will ever enter heaven. The Bible teaches that clearly...maybe you havent found that yet.
"The soul that sinneth, it shall DIE......" (forever)
It's not in God's nature to have us worry about what he has give to us as a gift. To have some chance we can lose it only causes confusion and uncertanty, two traits that are not of God's nature.
I mentioned before about if you truely accepted Jesus, then suicide isn't something you'd concider. The doctrine of losing salvation is not biblical. Not once does it mention it in the bible. The bible mentions holding onto it, but not once does it say you'll lose it.
Salvation is trusting or believing in, by faith, that Jesus Christ paid for your sins with His blood on the cross of Calvary.
"He that BELIEVETH on the Son hath everlasting life:. . ." John 3:36
"For God so loved the world, that he gave his only begotten Son, that whosoever BELIEVETH in him should not perish, but have everlasting life." John 3:16
" NOT BY WORKS of righteousness which we have done, but according to his mercy he saved us,. . ." Titus 3:5
"For by grace are ye saved through faith; and that not of yourselves: it is the gift of God: NOT OF WORKS, lest any man should boast." Ephesians 2:8,9
. . . him that cometh to me I WILL IN NO WISE CAST OUT." John 6:37
"I give them eternal life, and they shall never perish; no one can snatch them out of my hand. My Father, who has given them to me, is greater than all, no one can snatch them out of my Father's hand" John 10:28-29b
Sorry man, you're wrong on this, and I can continue to quote scripture that backs it up. Point to me where it says in the bible where I'll lose it.
Last edited by Romeyo07; 05-31-2006 at 09:29 AM.
All of these people are redeemable. He speaks of those that have no accepted Jesus. These are examples of those types of people who refused to know him.
"For other foundation can no man lay than that is laid, which is Jesus Christ. Now if any man build upon this foundation gold, silver, precious stones, wood, hay, stubble; Every man's work shall be made manifest: for the day shall declare it, because it shall be revealed by fire; and the fire shall try every man's work of what sort it is. If any man's work abide which he hath built thereupon, he shall receive a reward. If any man's work shall be burned, he shall suffer loss: BUT HE HIMSELF SHALL BE SAVED; yet so as by fire." 1 Corinthians 3:11-15
Yes they are redeemable....but that requires REPENTANCE.
You are meant to give up a life of sin when you accept Jesus as the saviour and God and all that stuff. It's not a "whew. Glad that's over with. Lets get drunk!" affair. The Bible lays out the cardinal sins fairly clearly. I don't see how someone could sin without knowing it. You'd have to have a twisted conscience for that.
Youre only half right.
I am sure you can quote Scripture but your picture is incomplete. Theres more!
Youre primarily looking at one side of the picture...justfication...."just if I had never sinned".
Also, you have completely left out "sanctifcation", that being the daily walk and SUBMITTAL of ONEs OWN WILL to Christ.
I will point you to one example to begin with.....King Saul.
If you study carefully you will see that Saul "got saved"...then walked with God and even prophesied under Gods influence, but at the end Saul lost his faith in God, consulted witches/necromancers, had a coversation with Satan who impersonated Samuel the prophet....then Saul, in despair, showing NO faith in God, being fearful, disobeyed God and murdered himself on his own sword.
My friend, the notion that once "saved" you can never be lost is NOT Biblical....its commonly taught in MANY churches, using a one sided, incomplete view of Scripture, similar to what you have posted here.
The baptist church is famous for this non Biblical doctrine.
Fact is NO ONE is truly "saved" until Christ returns. Until then you/we are BEING SAVED. Can we have confidence? Yes. BUT that confidence must be in Christ.
Its like this...if you went overboard from a ship in the middle of the sea wearing only your clothes, you would die in a matter of time, no question.
If a boat came by & threw you a rope would you then be saved??? No.
Not until you were back on the shore would you be completely saved. But as long as you held on to the rope you would be "safe" from death and BEING saved.
The only safety for a Christian is the daily death to ones self. Paul said "I die daily.." meaning setting aside his own will will to follow the will of Christ. Its not a matter of "worry" as you put it, its a matter of choice...daily choice.
If anyone is truly submitted to Christ and has given their will over to Him, they will not sin against God.
Living a life with Christ is a "war"...the Bible indicates this clearly. Paul said near the end of his life, "I have fought a good fight...."
War against what? Fought against whom?
The Bible says...Fight the good fight of faith!
Put on the whole armour of God - Eph 6:11
Wherefore take unto you the whole armour of God - Eph 6:13
The Bible identifies that "armour", each piece. Study that.
Jesus said "Watch and pray, that ye enter not into temptation." Matthew 26:41
Why watch or pray or "worry" about temptation if it can't hurt you??
Therefore let us not sleep, as do others; but let us watch and be sober. - 1 Thessalonians 5:6
Heres why.....
Be sober, be vigilant; because your adversary the devil, as a roaring lion, walketh about, seeking whom he may devour. 1 Peter 5:8.
Finally, my brethren, be strong in the Lord, and in the power of his might." Ephesians 6:10
Jesus said, "Without me ye can do nothing. John 15:5
Was he lying??? I think not!
Fact is, the Bible says we can have "the mind of Christ"...anyone with the mind of Christ, that is to say that is doing HIS will will NOT be found to be murdering, fearful, etc etc Those that continue in those things will be rewarded with death, not eternal life.
There shall in no wise enter into it (heaven) any thing that defileth." Revelation 21:27
Know ye not that the unrighteous shall not inherit the kingdom of God? Be not deceived; neither fornicators, nor idolaters, nor adulterers, . . . nor thieves, nor covetous, nor drunkards . . . shall inherit the kingdom of God. 1 Corinthians 6:9, 10.
Blessed are the pure in heart: for they shall see God." Matthew 5:8
He that hath the Son hath life; and he that hath not the Son of God hath not life." 1 John 5:12.
Jesus put it this way....
I am the vine, ye are the branches: He that abideth in me, and I in him, the same bringeth forth much fruit: for without me ye can do nothing. If a man abide not in me, he is cast forth as a branch, and is withered; and men gather them and cast them into the fire, and they are burned.
One must abide in Christ which involves more then accepting Him but ACTING upon that acceptance...."Faith without works is dead", and the "works" in question here is the daily death to self.
Can you be a believer and be "saved" for while, then lost? Jesus said so....
Those by the way side are they that hear; then cometh the devil, and taketh away the word out of their hearts, lest they should believe and be saved. They on the rock are they, which, when they hear, receive the word with joy; and these have no root, which for a while believe, and in time of temptation fall away." Luke 8:12, 13
When I shall say to the righteous, that he shall surely live; if he trust to his own righteousness, and commit iniquity, all his righteousnesses shall not be remembered; but for his iniquity that he hath committed, he shall die for it
When the righteous turneth from his righteousness, and committeth iniquity, he shall even die thereby."
"Know ye not, that to whom ye yield yourselves servants to obey, his servants ye are to whom ye obey?"
"He that doeth righteousness is righteous . . . He that committeth sin is of the devil." 1 John 3:7, 8.
"If after they have escaped the pollutions of the world through the knowledge of the Lord and Saviour Jesus Christ, they are again entangled therein, and overcome, the latter end is worse with them than the beginning. For it had been better for them not to have known the way of righteousness, than, after they have known it to turn from the holy commandment delivered unto them. But it is happened unto them according to the true proverb, The dog is turned to his own vomit again; and the sow that was washed to her wallowing in the mire" 2 Peter 2:20-22
The fact is one can be "saved" and then become "lost" again.
One can, like King Saul, let go of the rope (Christ) any time one chooses to do so. If we hold on to Christ, he hold on to us...but he doesnt, and will not hold us against our will.
The fact is that if one is truly "abiding in Christ", connected TO Him like a branch to a vine as He said, has the "mind of Christ" and is putting aside his own will to allow the will of God to reign in his life, he will not commit a sin that ends his own life. Period.
The sinless life of Jesus and sacrifice upon the cross did more then pay the penalty, it showed us how we can live, Christ provided a way out of living in sin....by the POWER of God.
Theres alot more...my advice to you is put aside the incomplete view you've been taught & keep studying!
Wow!
You are so correct! Thats precisely what the Bible teaches...in a nutshell.
Thank you.
Right, at first...once they repent and accept Jesus, they no longer fall under the category of non believers.Yes they are redeemable....but that requires REPENTANCE.
And if they do that they WILL NOT CONTINUE in their SIN.
They will seek Christs WILL and allow HIM to rule their life.
Even "believers" can be lost!!!....when they let go of God and STOP letting Christ's will reign in their life.
I was raised to believe that you can lose your salvation. After being "saved" and then going "lost" does not mean you are forgotten. All that you mentioned above regard turn away from what Jesus calls us to do, but doesn't say anything about rejecting us after we have accepted him. He knows we will fall, and fail, time and time again. At those moments, are you saying that we're not saved? I can't name one Christian that dosen't struggle with staying faithful to Jesus or what he's called to be. I myself fight the good fight everyday, but don't always win. I'm very much dedicated to God, but because I sin doesn't make me condemned, it makes me human. God understands this. If there's one person on this earth that doesn't sin after accepting Jesus, may the entire earth bow down before this person and praise him. He'd be perfect, which is impossible.
The biggest battle we fight is within, and I can guarantee you will lose a few times. Again, as mentioned before, if I do lose a fight within myself, am I then condemned? Does that make me a bad Christian? Will Jesus cast me away? No. I am forever covered by his blood and forgiven. Once I accept Jesus, God no longer sees my sins, but the blood of Jesus.
This does not give me all the right to live a sinful life, but a reason to be grateful. I don't have the desire to do the things I once did, which is evidence of God working in my life. I choose to follow Jesus, but we're bound by our flesh, and I know for sure we will sin.
My arguement is not one sided, and trust me when I say that I know where you're coming from. Growing up I've spent all my youth wondering if I was saved and only condemning myself because I made mistakes. Especially in my youth, I was full of fear because I was so scared to sin, and if I did sin, will I be separated from God?
The bible gives you a clear answer on how to become saved (roman road). It doesn't give you an absolute answer on how to lose it. Why should something so important then be left to interpretation rather than a definitive answer? This arguement goes beyond scripture into really understanding God's nature.
I am not saying anything...I am only pointing you to what God says.
Thats the thing that churches with this incomplete view of salvation end up with...the continuous repetition of sin-repent, sin-repent, sin-repent etc. To make up for this they then teach a false gospel of "once saved-always saved" which the Bible CLEARLY does NOT teach. Their "version" of the gospel ROBS it of the POWER. The Bible clearly teaches that one not NEED to continue in sin, it teaches overcoming sin, BY FAITH IN CHRIST, BY HIS POWER alone, not by ones own strength.
See Romans 6.
Yes, and provision has been made for that HOWEVER, the gospel truth ISNT to continue in your sin, its to overcome! Need the texts???The biggest battle we fight is within, and I can guarantee you will lose a few times. Again, as mentioned before, if I do lose a fight within myself, am I then condemned? Does that make me a bad Christian? Will Jesus cast me away? No. I am forever covered by his blood and forgiven. Once I accept Jesus, God no longer sees my sins, but the blood of Jesus.
Exactly! If you have truly accepted Christ, IF you truly let His will be yours, and ask Him to make that happen by His power, HE WILL!! You only have to SUBMIT. Therin lies the "battle", the "war"...its a war with self. The devil would like all to rely on themselves that way he gets the "victory" over that individual.This does not give me all the right to live a sinful life, but a reason to be grateful. I don't have the desire to do the things I once did, which is evidence of God working in my life.
As you have indicated, you have already seen evidence of this in your life.
But theres more...Gods power isnt weak or incapable....its complete!
As you say, you have no "right" to keep sinning....if you are its beacause you didnt allow Gods will to reign supreme in that instance. Are you then condemned to keep repeating that???? NO! God has the power, He has promised that power to ALL who DESIRE it, He will give it you...do you BELIIEVE that? Do you act upon that belief?? IF you do you cannot be "plucked out of Gods hand" to commit that sin over and over again.
Here is where your reasoning falls flat. The Bible DOES tell absolutely how to one can lose their salvation. I have already shared a number of verses which are quite clear....and there is more.The bible gives you a clear answer on how to become saved (roman road). It doesn't give you an absolute answer on how to lose it. Why should something so important then be left to interpretation rather than a definitive answer? This arguement goes beyond scripture into really understanding God's nature.
You first implied that suicide can be forgiven. I have shown by Gods Word how that is impossible. One who is living for God and in harmony with His will and has true and complete trust in Him would NEVER kill themselves...regardless of their circumstances. To do so demonstrates they dont TRULY trust God or BELIEVE Him or have submitted to His will. That is the original topic in this thread.
You also asked for verses that show a person can be saved and then become lost. I have given you some. Theyre in there! Dont take my word for it...study for yourself. If you HONESTLY, with open mind, humbly seek Gods will and His truth, HE will show it to you. I know this beyond any shadow of any doubt.
On a more personal note, there is no reason to "fear" if you submit to Christ...totally, holding nothing back, honestly seeking His will, putting all earthly notions aside, all conventional wisdom aside, relying totally on Him.
Its when we seek our own will within His word that we get confused. Any person living up to the light given to them, and is doing so BY HIS gauranteed power has nothing to fear. If you know you fall short somewhere, ask Him for the victory, He will give it to you if youre honest in heart.
You did quote verses that upon reading one could make the assumptions that you've made. However, leave out the assumption and look for it said in the bible, plain as day. What I'm trying to say is that repeatedly, the bible says "to get saved, do this". It does not say "you will lose your salvation if you do this".
IMO, the verses you quoted do not specifically speak of salvation, and are left to interpretation, which can then be twisted (not necessarily in a bad way) to what one may believe, either my p.o.v. or yours. My side says that the condemnation/falling away/death and punishment mentioned (or any form thereof) is not of an eternal basis but a physical and spiritual death. Before I knew Christ I was dead, but now I'm alive.
Let me also add/clarify that what I believe applies to those who choose to follow Christ and try to be Christians. IMO, if you've truely accepted Jesus, there is no condemnation for you, no matter how often you mess up.
I'll fall back on it not being in God's nature not to leave such an important topic left unclear and undefinitive, at least not as clear as the way to salvation is clearly defined. I suffered for years believing I could lose my salvation for any little thing, and this topic strikes home to me. I know your belief leaves room for doubt in people, when we should be assured of our salvation. I'm not knocking you, but take a look at my side of the story.
Sorry friend, you clearly are mislead or confused by your upbringing if you can honestly say this with a straight face. That point is not even questionable.
When I shall say to the righteous, that he shall surely live; if he trust to his own righteousness, and commit iniquity, all his righteousnesses shall not be remembered; but for his iniquity that he hath committed, he shall die for it
WHEN YOU TRUST YOUR OWN SENSE OF RIGHT DOING INSTEAD OF DOING THE WILL OF GOD HE HAS REVEALED, YOU COMMIT SIN AND WILL DIE.
When the righteous turneth from his righteousness, and committeth iniquity, he shall even die thereby."
WHEN YOU TURN AWAY FROM RIGHTEOUSNESS, (KEEPING GODS WORD/COMMANDMENTS) YOU COMMIT SIN AND WILL DIE.
"If after they have escaped the pollutions of the world through the knowledge of the Lord and Saviour Jesus Christ, they are again entangled therein, and overcome, the latter end is worse with them than the beginning. For it had been better for them not to have known the way of righteousness, than, after they have known it to turn from the holy commandment delivered unto them. But it is happened unto them according to the true proverb, The dog is turned to his own vomit again; and the sow that was washed to her wallowing in the mire" 2 Peter 2:20-22
IF AFTER YOU HAVE COME TO KNOW CHRIST AND HAVE ESCAPED THE POWER SIN IN YOUR LIFE THROUGH CHRIST, AND THEN YOU BECOME ENTANGLED IN SIN AGAIN, YOU WILL DIE.
Why? Because to truly know Christ and be given over to Him is to live a new life...not abandon that new life.
The soul that sinneth it shall DIE! NOT live in heaven eternally.
What is sin??????? Sin is transgression of Gods law/word. The Bible so bluntly plain about that. Need the texts?????????
Seriously dude, if you think the Bible doesnt tell how a man can be lost you are seriously mistaken!!
There is only ONE point of view that matters....GODS. You and I are either in harmony with it or not. The Bible is not to be interpreted...this false notion is very prevealant...especially in southern baptist teachings.IMO, the verses you quoted do not specifically speak of salvation, and are left to interpretation, which can then be twisted (not necessarily in a bad way) to what one may believe, either my p.o.v. or yours.
Fact is the truth is what it is...its up to US to SEEK it...there is no room for OUR interpretation. This view you have represented is invariably what all people who believe in the "half gospel" truth end up falling back on.
Fact is that the ONLY safety is in the Word of God. Jesus said that VERY plainly. Our understanding is either in harmony with Him or not.
I understand that is YOUR belief....its just contrary to plain Scripture.Let me also add/clarify that what I believe applies to those who choose to follow Christ and try to be Christians. IMO, if you've truely accepted Jesus, there is no condemnation for you, no matter how often you mess up.
Read above!!!! The Bible is very plain on that subject.
Oh I have looked very closely at "your side" of the story. Long ago I decided to forget all that nonsense, set it all aside and HONESTLY seek God's Word to know some answers to those same questions. The answers were are all right there...in the Word, where God said they would be...and were there the whole time.I'll fall back on it not being in God's nature not to leave such an important topic left unclear and undefinitive, at least not as clear as the way to salvation is clearly defined. I suffered for years believing I could lose my salvation for any little thing, and this topic strikes home to me. I know your belief leaves room for doubt in people, when we should be assured of our salvation. I'm not knocking you, but take a look at my side of the story.
God will show you if you want Him to.
Look, don't let your "troubles" and "suffering" lead you to settling for a "powerless" gospel belief that has no basis in Scripture. If you think the Bible "leaves doubt" in people then you don't at all understand what it says.
Again...see Romans 6 for starters!
One can be confident in Gods grace and mercy. He freely gives it to ALL that seek it. His grace and mercy endureth forever...to those who honestly seek it with all their hearts. Dont settle for less.
The truth lies in the word, yes, however, when I read what you quote I do not see it the way you are describing. That is your interpretation of the scripture. You highlight "death" and "he shall die", but which death are you talking about? In what instance of life does this apply to? My physical death? The death of the relationship between myself and Christ? My eternal death? The scriptures do not say it, which is why I continue to hold my ground on what I'm saying.
This is why there are so many denominations, because of the difference in opinion on what they're trying to say in the bible. My beliefs do not come from what was preached about on Sunday, I've been into my bible since I was a child. I've done my studying and my own research. The southern baptist convention has nothing to do with me or my beliefs.
The issue lies in the difference in what I understood of the scriptures and what you understand of it.
So tell me this then, since you are a believer, do you sin? If so, do you immediately repent? Are you currently doing something that you think is ok but its actually wrong? Ever had a bad thought? Ever stare at a girl a little too long? If in that moment the church is raptured, do you stay behind because you didn't say "sorry God" in time? That's rediculous. How can I have confidence in being saved if for every little thing I'm losing my salvation? That's where my problem lies.
I'll have to dig into my study bible tonight about this.
Oh they speak to this plainly. I clearly understand you do not see it.
Smartest thing youve said yet. Keep in mind, if you honestly seek the truth you will find it. If you seek to prove your notion of truth, or prove your own ideas, theres no telling what you'll "find".I'll have to dig into my study bible tonight about this.
I will answer you with the Bible...
If we say that we have not sinned, we make him a liar, and his word is not in us.
Pride goeth before a fall.
Yet the Bible also says this......
And hereby we do know that we know him, if we keep his commandments.
He that saith, I know him, and keepeth not his commandments, is a liar, and the truth is not in him. But whoso keepeth his word, in him verily is the love of God perfected: hereby know we that we are in him.
He that saith he abideth in him ought himself also so to walk, even as he walked.
Heres the thing...if you are walking with God completely submitted to His will you will not keep on doing the same sin over and over and over. To do so makes you a liar and sells God short.
God is willing to provide power to ANYONE to OVERCOME sin.
The thing is, the more a true Christian overcomes sin the more they realize they have more to overcome. As you gain the victory over one thing God will show you more you yet need the victory over. The true Christian will never get to a point on this earth where they will say that they have no sin or are not sinning because to do that is itself a sin. If nothing else that would be pride and remember what happens after pride? Yep...a fall.
Furthermore a true Christian is likely to be aware due to their close connection with Christ that they may have unrealized sins that they yet need to address.
Please...lets address one non Biblical teaching at a time. Rapture is not a Biblical teaching. Its a latin word....that should tell the discerning student of its origin.If in that moment the church is raptured...etc
One more thing Romeyo07...I have not meant to imply in any way that youre lost and going to hell because of your position, or anything of that sort. So, please dont read that into this discussion okay?
This being said, how would one ever gain salvation if God continues to find sin in us? Correct me if I'm wrong, but weren't you saying if you sin you're pulling yourself away from God and therefore unsaved? If at every moment that I sin I become unsaved, what is the purpose of Jesus dying for us? Was his death not enough to cover the sin that I have done? I'm still not getting a clear answer on this from you. Excuse my ignorance if I sound redunant, I just don't get your side.
Rapture" comes from the words "caught up" in I Thessalonians 4:17. In the Greek the word is harpazo - "to seize upon by force", "to snatch up." The Latin translators used the word rapturo. Some people claim that "rapture" is not a Biblical term. This is untrue, unless they want to say that "God" and "Jesus" are not Biblical Terms. Almost all words in our English Bible are translations of Greek or Hebrew expressions, and are, therefore, not in the Bible in the form we know them. "God" is a proper and meaningful translation of certain words in the original languages, and "Jesus" is a good translation for us of His name (Yeshua, "Joshua," "The Lord Saves," in Hebrew). In the same way, the English word "rapture" which means "to be caught up" is an excellent translation for the Greek harpazo.Please...lets address one non Biblical teaching at a time. Rapture is not a Biblical teaching. Its a latin word....that should tell the discerning student of its origin.
this is a whole different thread though
Its not "my side"...its the Bible.
Also I see you don't get it...and I don't blame you one bit...most people don't get it. Jesus said ".. strait is the gate, and narrow is the way, which leadeth unto life, and few there be that find it.
To continue living in sin, expecting to be saved is a presumption, not Biblical truth. I am not saying willful sinning "pulls you away" (seperates) from God...the Bible does.
Sin is trangression of Gods law/Word.
More then that the Bible defines sin as "to know good and do it not"
Its two things that make up sin in this context...knowlege and action.
The Christian will rely totally on God, giving himself over to Gods will.
He wont be purposefully and intentionally doing that which he knows is wrong....IF he submits his will to Christ. Thats why many, if not most of the Biblical promises of eternal life start with the word IF.
examples....
"IF we walk in the light . . . the blood of Jesus Christ his Son cleanseth us from all sin." 1 John 1:7.
(IF WE DONT WALK IN THE LIGHT He gives us.......he wont!!)
"IF that which ye have heard from the beginning shall remain in you, ye also shall continue in the Son, and in the Father." 1 John 2:24.
"IF any man draw back, my soul shall have no pleasure in him." Hebrews 10:38.
"IF a man abide not in me, he is cast forth as a branch." John 15:6.
"IF a man keep my saying, he shall never see death." John 8:51.
"IF thou continue in his goodness: otherwise thou also shalt be cut off." Romans 11:22.
"IF ye do these things, ye shall never fall." 2 Peter 1:10.
"For we are made partakers of Christ, IF we hold the beginning of our confidence steadfast unto the end." Hebrews 3:14.
"IF we endure, we shall also reign with him: IF we deny him, he also will deny us." 2 Timothy 2:12 (RSV).
"IF we sin willfully . . . there remaineth no more sacrifice for sins." Hebrews 10:26.
"IF any man love the world, the love of the Father is not in him." 1 John 2:15.
"Ye are my friends, IF ye do whatsoever I command you." John 15:14.
"IF ye live after the flesh, ye shall die." Romans 8:13.
Will there still be "imperfections" in his life? Yes. But God will reveal those in His own time. Thats why the Christian will never say he commits no sin.
He will remain open to whatever God may have in store for him.
Walking "perfect" with Christ is "walking in the light given" meaning living up to what you know so far....BY GODS POWER, not your own. Not knowing something yet won't keep one out of heaven.
Jesus DIED so that we don't have to.....IF.....we repent, turn from sin etc!!
Jesus LIVED to show us how.....IF......we submit completely to God!!
God will provide that same power to YOU and I.....IF we SEEK it honestly.
Once "saved" always "saved"??????????????????????????????
Impossible for a believer to become lost again?????????????????
What else does the Bible teach in addition to the IF's spoken of above.......
Paul recognized the Biblical possibility of being cast out of God's presence in the end unless he curbed the fleshly propensities to sin.
He said…, ". . . lest that by any means, when I have preached to others, I myself should be a castaway." 1 Corinthians 9:27.
The word Paul used - castaway - is very interesting. It is the Greek word "adokimos," which is translated "reprobate" in other places. In fact, 2 Cor 13:5 declares that Jesus Christ cannot dwell in the heart that is reprobate (adokimos). Titus 1:16 speaks of the abominable and disobedient who are "unto every good work reprobate (adokimos)."
Obviously Paul had nothing else in mind but that he could be lost IF he allowed sin to recapture his life
Paul also spoke of the possibility of born-again believers suffering damnation because they receive the Lord's Supper unworthily. "For he that eateth and drinketh unworthily, eateth and drinketh damnation to himself." 1 Corinthians 11:29.
No one would deny that these people were committed Christians partaking of the Biblical symbols of their redemption. Could they fall into damnation and be lost? The Bible says they could.
What damnation? The same Greek word (krima) is found in 1 Timothy 5:12. "Having damnation (krima) because they have cast off their first faith."
Hmmm… believers CAN "cast off their first faith" and go into final damnation. Makes perfect sense in light of the rest of Scripture.
Jesus said, "Except ye eat the flesh of the Son of man, and drink his blood, ye have no life in you." John 6:53.
What LIFE was He talking about? In verse 63 He explained, "The words that I speak unto you, they are spirit, and they are life."
Unless the Christian lives by the Word of God, he cannot continue to partake of the spiritual life derived from Christ.
Consider this...
“Cast not away therefore your confidence, which hath great recompense of reward. For ye have need of patience, that, after ye have done the will of God, ye might receive the promise. . . . Now the just shall live by faith; but if any man draw back unto perdition; but of them that believe to the saving of the soul." Heb 10 Verses 35 to 39.
Now how could anybody state any more clearly the fact that one's eternal salvation is conditional on his remaining steadfast to the very end? Unless there were a possibility that one might cast away his confidence, that he might draw back unto perdition, why would the Bible give such a warning????
Now heres a clear Scripture....
"For it is impossible for those who were once enlightened, and have tasted of the heavenly gift, and were made partakers of the Holy Ghost, And have tasted the good word of God, and the powers of the world to come, If they shall fall away, to renew them again unto repentance; seeing they crucify to themselves the Son of God afresh, and put him to an open shame."
There it is in plain Scripture…IT IS IMPOSSIBLE FOR THOSE WHO WERE ONCE “SAVED” and WHO HAVE FALLEN BACK INTO SIN TO BE RENEWED (“SAVED”) BY REPENTANCE AS LONG AS THEY CONTINUE TO COMMIT WILLFUL SIN….
It would be just about impossible to describe more perfectly a person who had been born again but who later rebelled against God and rejected Christ and rejected the Holy Spirit.
That person has placed himself out of God's reach by his own actions.
Therefore, there is no possibility that such a man can be saved as long as he continues to crucify Christ by his disobedience.
Hmm....sounds just like King Saul to me.
Saul was a sinner like all of us.
Saul listened to God.
He accepted Christ, became "saved".
Saul became the "Lords annointed"
Saul became King Saul.
Saul was given the gift of prophecy.
Saul was a prophet of God.
Saul returned to sin and disobedience of Gods law/word.
Saul consulted witches/satan
Saul was unable to hear God by his own action.
Saul commited murder ending His own life.
The Scripture is quite clear...mans invention of "once saved always saved" doesnt fly when examined in the light of the Word.
I understand that God is deserving of credit when "good" things happen for his followers. Who deserves credit for the bad stuff?Furthermore a true Christian is likely to be aware due to their close connection with Christ that they may have unrealized sins that they yet need to address.
Posting Permissions
Reply With Quote
