but how do we know that punishment hasn't been handed down to them? A job promotion passed up to someone else, paying a speeding ticket, etc...these are things we probably wont see but do happen. Some say its Karma, some call it just random, or it just might be divine punishment.
that's one way to look at it and i agree for the most part. but what about certain ppl in organized crime? crime/mafia bosses, drug kingpins, etc? i realize over time, many have been brought to "justice" or killed or overthrown or whatever, but certainly there have been many living comfortable extravagant lifestyles as well?
This is true, but I would hardly consider fearing being caught or wacked on a daily basis living a good life. Again, we really don't know what sort of consequences people pay, rich or poor. Wealth means nothing to God, so one's status in society doesn't dictate God's approval. If that were true, he'd hate me
IMO, the hardness of their hearts has pushed God away, and they live thier lives with the possibility of losing it all. Some are luckier than others. The difference between them and us is that God, His Grace and Mercy, is with us all the time, and non existant with them. When I fall, He picks me up...when they do, their recovery is up to them.
i can see your point of view, although i'm not sure that i agree (being that i'm not a believer).
What aren't you sure of? What I said or how it applies to you?
how it applies to me. i understood perfectly what you said.Originally Posted by Romeyo07
feel free to ask any questions (that is, if you want answers). I'll be more than happy to help clarify how what I said and what I believe applies to you.
preciate the offer man, always good to know/speak with someone who honestly believes what they believe and knows what they believe
geezz this is so sad i cant talk about something seriouse without someone being an idiot about stuff.
he Romeo i saved you to my yahoo so just except anytime
just leave it be id rather talk about the topic tthan sit here and argue about this stupid mess you misunderstood
hey I added you too...I'm on from 7-5 everyday. Feel free to hit me up.
hey romeo do it again cause i clicked the wrong button.
I'm on aim, yahoo and msn.
shoot I'll even buy lunch if need be.
You are correct about any sin being forgivable except blaspeheming the Holy Spirit.
Another things to consider....to blaspheme the Holy Spirit is to REFUSE to LISTEN to your concience, which is the voice of God within you.
If one commits suicide theyre not listening to their concience....or God.
i could post alot in here but im not on here enough to defend my points so just yeah. this is gonna turn out to be a long thread and alot of ppl are gonna be mad.
here's another excerpt i found from someone asking a question, i don't care so much what they're saying other than the example used:
what do u think about this?From my studies, the only thing that would send us to Hell would be to deny Jesus as our Savior. But that even in believing Jesus as our Savior does not mean we will be perfect even in death or even strong in life no matter how hard we want to we strong in life.
I have wondered about this because I know of a Christian who loved Jesus with all her heart and suffered from co-dependency in a dysfunctional home. She suffered for so long and asked Jesus so carry her into heaven to live with Him as she sliced her wrists 3 1/2 inches on one wrist, 3 inches on the other wrist and 4 inches in the upper thigh. She wrote that her Hell was on earth and that she couldn't stand one more day of it. She wrote that she prayed to God, as she performed her murder on herself, that He would forgive her for this sin as He had forgiven her of the others she had done in the past. She stated that the Bible says that He will not allow one to stand more than one can bear and that He is our strength. She stated that she wasn't strong--knowing the Lord is strong but not her and asked to be carried to heaven to live with Him from that moment on.
I think its wishful dreams and nonsense. Sorry.
As I said, study repentance. Therin lies your answer.
The spirit of true repentance doesnt lead one to ignore God and take ones own life. If one is truly repentant and truly believes in God they will wait on Him to deliver them from whatever their circumstances. Suicide will never be an option!
To be absolutely blunt, suicide is murder of ones self. It also demonstrates that the committer of such an act has no faith, is unbeliving and is fearful.
The Bible is quite clear about the fate of those who have no faith in God and who do not REPENT, TURN AWAY FROM and CEASE from those sinful acts.....
But the fearful, and unbelieving, and the abominable, and murderers, and whoremongers, and sorcerers, and idolaters, and all liars, shall have their part in the lake which burneth with fire and brimstone: which is the second death. Rev 21:8
All of these people are redeemable. He speaks of those that have no accepted Jesus. These are examples of those types of people who refused to know him.
"For other foundation can no man lay than that is laid, which is Jesus Christ. Now if any man build upon this foundation gold, silver, precious stones, wood, hay, stubble; Every man's work shall be made manifest: for the day shall declare it, because it shall be revealed by fire; and the fire shall try every man's work of what sort it is. If any man's work abide which he hath built thereupon, he shall receive a reward. If any man's work shall be burned, he shall suffer loss: BUT HE HIMSELF SHALL BE SAVED; yet so as by fire." 1 Corinthians 3:11-15
Yes they are redeemable....but that requires REPENTANCE.
Right, at first...once they repent and accept Jesus, they no longer fall under the category of non believers.Yes they are redeemable....but that requires REPENTANCE.
And if they do that they WILL NOT CONTINUE in their SIN.
They will seek Christs WILL and allow HIM to rule their life.
Even "believers" can be lost!!!....when they let go of God and STOP letting Christ's will reign in their life.
I was raised to believe that you can lose your salvation. After being "saved" and then going "lost" does not mean you are forgotten. All that you mentioned above regard turn away from what Jesus calls us to do, but doesn't say anything about rejecting us after we have accepted him. He knows we will fall, and fail, time and time again. At those moments, are you saying that we're not saved? I can't name one Christian that dosen't struggle with staying faithful to Jesus or what he's called to be. I myself fight the good fight everyday, but don't always win. I'm very much dedicated to God, but because I sin doesn't make me condemned, it makes me human. God understands this. If there's one person on this earth that doesn't sin after accepting Jesus, may the entire earth bow down before this person and praise him. He'd be perfect, which is impossible.
The biggest battle we fight is within, and I can guarantee you will lose a few times. Again, as mentioned before, if I do lose a fight within myself, am I then condemned? Does that make me a bad Christian? Will Jesus cast me away? No. I am forever covered by his blood and forgiven. Once I accept Jesus, God no longer sees my sins, but the blood of Jesus.
This does not give me all the right to live a sinful life, but a reason to be grateful. I don't have the desire to do the things I once did, which is evidence of God working in my life. I choose to follow Jesus, but we're bound by our flesh, and I know for sure we will sin.
My arguement is not one sided, and trust me when I say that I know where you're coming from. Growing up I've spent all my youth wondering if I was saved and only condemning myself because I made mistakes. Especially in my youth, I was full of fear because I was so scared to sin, and if I did sin, will I be separated from God?
The bible gives you a clear answer on how to become saved (roman road). It doesn't give you an absolute answer on how to lose it. Why should something so important then be left to interpretation rather than a definitive answer? This arguement goes beyond scripture into really understanding God's nature.
I am not saying anything...I am only pointing you to what God says.
Thats the thing that churches with this incomplete view of salvation end up with...the continuous repetition of sin-repent, sin-repent, sin-repent etc. To make up for this they then teach a false gospel of "once saved-always saved" which the Bible CLEARLY does NOT teach. Their "version" of the gospel ROBS it of the POWER. The Bible clearly teaches that one not NEED to continue in sin, it teaches overcoming sin, BY FAITH IN CHRIST, BY HIS POWER alone, not by ones own strength.
See Romans 6.
Yes, and provision has been made for that HOWEVER, the gospel truth ISNT to continue in your sin, its to overcome! Need the texts???The biggest battle we fight is within, and I can guarantee you will lose a few times. Again, as mentioned before, if I do lose a fight within myself, am I then condemned? Does that make me a bad Christian? Will Jesus cast me away? No. I am forever covered by his blood and forgiven. Once I accept Jesus, God no longer sees my sins, but the blood of Jesus.
Exactly! If you have truly accepted Christ, IF you truly let His will be yours, and ask Him to make that happen by His power, HE WILL!! You only have to SUBMIT. Therin lies the "battle", the "war"...its a war with self. The devil would like all to rely on themselves that way he gets the "victory" over that individual.This does not give me all the right to live a sinful life, but a reason to be grateful. I don't have the desire to do the things I once did, which is evidence of God working in my life.
As you have indicated, you have already seen evidence of this in your life.
But theres more...Gods power isnt weak or incapable....its complete!
As you say, you have no "right" to keep sinning....if you are its beacause you didnt allow Gods will to reign supreme in that instance. Are you then condemned to keep repeating that???? NO! God has the power, He has promised that power to ALL who DESIRE it, He will give it you...do you BELIIEVE that? Do you act upon that belief?? IF you do you cannot be "plucked out of Gods hand" to commit that sin over and over again.
Here is where your reasoning falls flat. The Bible DOES tell absolutely how to one can lose their salvation. I have already shared a number of verses which are quite clear....and there is more.The bible gives you a clear answer on how to become saved (roman road). It doesn't give you an absolute answer on how to lose it. Why should something so important then be left to interpretation rather than a definitive answer? This arguement goes beyond scripture into really understanding God's nature.
You first implied that suicide can be forgiven. I have shown by Gods Word how that is impossible. One who is living for God and in harmony with His will and has true and complete trust in Him would NEVER kill themselves...regardless of their circumstances. To do so demonstrates they dont TRULY trust God or BELIEVE Him or have submitted to His will. That is the original topic in this thread.
You also asked for verses that show a person can be saved and then become lost. I have given you some. Theyre in there! Dont take my word for it...study for yourself. If you HONESTLY, with open mind, humbly seek Gods will and His truth, HE will show it to you. I know this beyond any shadow of any doubt.
On a more personal note, there is no reason to "fear" if you submit to Christ...totally, holding nothing back, honestly seeking His will, putting all earthly notions aside, all conventional wisdom aside, relying totally on Him.
Its when we seek our own will within His word that we get confused. Any person living up to the light given to them, and is doing so BY HIS gauranteed power has nothing to fear. If you know you fall short somewhere, ask Him for the victory, He will give it to you if youre honest in heart.
You did quote verses that upon reading one could make the assumptions that you've made. However, leave out the assumption and look for it said in the bible, plain as day. What I'm trying to say is that repeatedly, the bible says "to get saved, do this". It does not say "you will lose your salvation if you do this".
IMO, the verses you quoted do not specifically speak of salvation, and are left to interpretation, which can then be twisted (not necessarily in a bad way) to what one may believe, either my p.o.v. or yours. My side says that the condemnation/falling away/death and punishment mentioned (or any form thereof) is not of an eternal basis but a physical and spiritual death. Before I knew Christ I was dead, but now I'm alive.
Let me also add/clarify that what I believe applies to those who choose to follow Christ and try to be Christians. IMO, if you've truely accepted Jesus, there is no condemnation for you, no matter how often you mess up.
I'll fall back on it not being in God's nature not to leave such an important topic left unclear and undefinitive, at least not as clear as the way to salvation is clearly defined. I suffered for years believing I could lose my salvation for any little thing, and this topic strikes home to me. I know your belief leaves room for doubt in people, when we should be assured of our salvation. I'm not knocking you, but take a look at my side of the story.
Sorry friend, you clearly are mislead or confused by your upbringing if you can honestly say this with a straight face. That point is not even questionable.
When I shall say to the righteous, that he shall surely live; if he trust to his own righteousness, and commit iniquity, all his righteousnesses shall not be remembered; but for his iniquity that he hath committed, he shall die for it
WHEN YOU TRUST YOUR OWN SENSE OF RIGHT DOING INSTEAD OF DOING THE WILL OF GOD HE HAS REVEALED, YOU COMMIT SIN AND WILL DIE.
When the righteous turneth from his righteousness, and committeth iniquity, he shall even die thereby."
WHEN YOU TURN AWAY FROM RIGHTEOUSNESS, (KEEPING GODS WORD/COMMANDMENTS) YOU COMMIT SIN AND WILL DIE.
"If after they have escaped the pollutions of the world through the knowledge of the Lord and Saviour Jesus Christ, they are again entangled therein, and overcome, the latter end is worse with them than the beginning. For it had been better for them not to have known the way of righteousness, than, after they have known it to turn from the holy commandment delivered unto them. But it is happened unto them according to the true proverb, The dog is turned to his own vomit again; and the sow that was washed to her wallowing in the mire" 2 Peter 2:20-22
IF AFTER YOU HAVE COME TO KNOW CHRIST AND HAVE ESCAPED THE POWER SIN IN YOUR LIFE THROUGH CHRIST, AND THEN YOU BECOME ENTANGLED IN SIN AGAIN, YOU WILL DIE.
Why? Because to truly know Christ and be given over to Him is to live a new life...not abandon that new life.
The soul that sinneth it shall DIE! NOT live in heaven eternally.
What is sin??????? Sin is transgression of Gods law/word. The Bible so bluntly plain about that. Need the texts?????????
Seriously dude, if you think the Bible doesnt tell how a man can be lost you are seriously mistaken!!
There is only ONE point of view that matters....GODS. You and I are either in harmony with it or not. The Bible is not to be interpreted...this false notion is very prevealant...especially in southern baptist teachings.IMO, the verses you quoted do not specifically speak of salvation, and are left to interpretation, which can then be twisted (not necessarily in a bad way) to what one may believe, either my p.o.v. or yours.
Fact is the truth is what it is...its up to US to SEEK it...there is no room for OUR interpretation. This view you have represented is invariably what all people who believe in the "half gospel" truth end up falling back on.
Fact is that the ONLY safety is in the Word of God. Jesus said that VERY plainly. Our understanding is either in harmony with Him or not.
I understand that is YOUR belief....its just contrary to plain Scripture.Let me also add/clarify that what I believe applies to those who choose to follow Christ and try to be Christians. IMO, if you've truely accepted Jesus, there is no condemnation for you, no matter how often you mess up.
Read above!!!! The Bible is very plain on that subject.
Oh I have looked very closely at "your side" of the story. Long ago I decided to forget all that nonsense, set it all aside and HONESTLY seek God's Word to know some answers to those same questions. The answers were are all right there...in the Word, where God said they would be...and were there the whole time.I'll fall back on it not being in God's nature not to leave such an important topic left unclear and undefinitive, at least not as clear as the way to salvation is clearly defined. I suffered for years believing I could lose my salvation for any little thing, and this topic strikes home to me. I know your belief leaves room for doubt in people, when we should be assured of our salvation. I'm not knocking you, but take a look at my side of the story.
God will show you if you want Him to.
Look, don't let your "troubles" and "suffering" lead you to settling for a "powerless" gospel belief that has no basis in Scripture. If you think the Bible "leaves doubt" in people then you don't at all understand what it says.
Again...see Romans 6 for starters!
One can be confident in Gods grace and mercy. He freely gives it to ALL that seek it. His grace and mercy endureth forever...to those who honestly seek it with all their hearts. Dont settle for less.
The truth lies in the word, yes, however, when I read what you quote I do not see it the way you are describing. That is your interpretation of the scripture. You highlight "death" and "he shall die", but which death are you talking about? In what instance of life does this apply to? My physical death? The death of the relationship between myself and Christ? My eternal death? The scriptures do not say it, which is why I continue to hold my ground on what I'm saying.
This is why there are so many denominations, because of the difference in opinion on what they're trying to say in the bible. My beliefs do not come from what was preached about on Sunday, I've been into my bible since I was a child. I've done my studying and my own research. The southern baptist convention has nothing to do with me or my beliefs.
The issue lies in the difference in what I understood of the scriptures and what you understand of it.
So tell me this then, since you are a believer, do you sin? If so, do you immediately repent? Are you currently doing something that you think is ok but its actually wrong? Ever had a bad thought? Ever stare at a girl a little too long? If in that moment the church is raptured, do you stay behind because you didn't say "sorry God" in time? That's rediculous. How can I have confidence in being saved if for every little thing I'm losing my salvation? That's where my problem lies.
I'll have to dig into my study bible tonight about this.
Oh they speak to this plainly. I clearly understand you do not see it.
Smartest thing youve said yet. Keep in mind, if you honestly seek the truth you will find it. If you seek to prove your notion of truth, or prove your own ideas, theres no telling what you'll "find".I'll have to dig into my study bible tonight about this.
I will answer you with the Bible...
If we say that we have not sinned, we make him a liar, and his word is not in us.
Pride goeth before a fall.
Yet the Bible also says this......
And hereby we do know that we know him, if we keep his commandments.
He that saith, I know him, and keepeth not his commandments, is a liar, and the truth is not in him. But whoso keepeth his word, in him verily is the love of God perfected: hereby know we that we are in him.
He that saith he abideth in him ought himself also so to walk, even as he walked.
Heres the thing...if you are walking with God completely submitted to His will you will not keep on doing the same sin over and over and over. To do so makes you a liar and sells God short.
God is willing to provide power to ANYONE to OVERCOME sin.
The thing is, the more a true Christian overcomes sin the more they realize they have more to overcome. As you gain the victory over one thing God will show you more you yet need the victory over. The true Christian will never get to a point on this earth where they will say that they have no sin or are not sinning because to do that is itself a sin. If nothing else that would be pride and remember what happens after pride? Yep...a fall.
Furthermore a true Christian is likely to be aware due to their close connection with Christ that they may have unrealized sins that they yet need to address.
Please...lets address one non Biblical teaching at a time. Rapture is not a Biblical teaching. Its a latin word....that should tell the discerning student of its origin.If in that moment the church is raptured...etc
This being said, how would one ever gain salvation if God continues to find sin in us? Correct me if I'm wrong, but weren't you saying if you sin you're pulling yourself away from God and therefore unsaved? If at every moment that I sin I become unsaved, what is the purpose of Jesus dying for us? Was his death not enough to cover the sin that I have done? I'm still not getting a clear answer on this from you. Excuse my ignorance if I sound redunant, I just don't get your side.
Rapture" comes from the words "caught up" in I Thessalonians 4:17. In the Greek the word is harpazo - "to seize upon by force", "to snatch up." The Latin translators used the word rapturo. Some people claim that "rapture" is not a Biblical term. This is untrue, unless they want to say that "God" and "Jesus" are not Biblical Terms. Almost all words in our English Bible are translations of Greek or Hebrew expressions, and are, therefore, not in the Bible in the form we know them. "God" is a proper and meaningful translation of certain words in the original languages, and "Jesus" is a good translation for us of His name (Yeshua, "Joshua," "The Lord Saves," in Hebrew). In the same way, the English word "rapture" which means "to be caught up" is an excellent translation for the Greek harpazo.Please...lets address one non Biblical teaching at a time. Rapture is not a Biblical teaching. Its a latin word....that should tell the discerning student of its origin.
this is a whole different thread though
Its not "my side"...its the Bible.
Also I see you don't get it...and I don't blame you one bit...most people don't get it. Jesus said ".. strait is the gate, and narrow is the way, which leadeth unto life, and few there be that find it.
To continue living in sin, expecting to be saved is a presumption, not Biblical truth. I am not saying willful sinning "pulls you away" (seperates) from God...the Bible does.
Sin is trangression of Gods law/Word.
More then that the Bible defines sin as "to know good and do it not"
Its two things that make up sin in this context...knowlege and action.
The Christian will rely totally on God, giving himself over to Gods will.
He wont be purposefully and intentionally doing that which he knows is wrong....IF he submits his will to Christ. Thats why many, if not most of the Biblical promises of eternal life start with the word IF.
examples....
"IF we walk in the light . . . the blood of Jesus Christ his Son cleanseth us from all sin." 1 John 1:7.
(IF WE DONT WALK IN THE LIGHT He gives us.......he wont!!)
"IF that which ye have heard from the beginning shall remain in you, ye also shall continue in the Son, and in the Father." 1 John 2:24.
"IF any man draw back, my soul shall have no pleasure in him." Hebrews 10:38.
"IF a man abide not in me, he is cast forth as a branch." John 15:6.
"IF a man keep my saying, he shall never see death." John 8:51.
"IF thou continue in his goodness: otherwise thou also shalt be cut off." Romans 11:22.
"IF ye do these things, ye shall never fall." 2 Peter 1:10.
"For we are made partakers of Christ, IF we hold the beginning of our confidence steadfast unto the end." Hebrews 3:14.
"IF we endure, we shall also reign with him: IF we deny him, he also will deny us." 2 Timothy 2:12 (RSV).
"IF we sin willfully . . . there remaineth no more sacrifice for sins." Hebrews 10:26.
"IF any man love the world, the love of the Father is not in him." 1 John 2:15.
"Ye are my friends, IF ye do whatsoever I command you." John 15:14.
"IF ye live after the flesh, ye shall die." Romans 8:13.
Will there still be "imperfections" in his life? Yes. But God will reveal those in His own time. Thats why the Christian will never say he commits no sin.
He will remain open to whatever God may have in store for him.
Walking "perfect" with Christ is "walking in the light given" meaning living up to what you know so far....BY GODS POWER, not your own. Not knowing something yet won't keep one out of heaven.
Jesus DIED so that we don't have to.....IF.....we repent, turn from sin etc!!
Jesus LIVED to show us how.....IF......we submit completely to God!!
God will provide that same power to YOU and I.....IF we SEEK it honestly.
I understand that God is deserving of credit when "good" things happen for his followers. Who deserves credit for the bad stuff?Furthermore a true Christian is likely to be aware due to their close connection with Christ that they may have unrealized sins that they yet need to address.
Who do you think?
If you CHOOSE a course of action that leads to negative results, who is to blame? If you cheat on your spouse, get busted, have to go to court, lose custody of your children etc etc...whos fault is that? YOURS!
Many things happen because of what people CHOOSE.
Some "negative" or "bad" things that happen are nothing more then the result of sin. Sin causes death and destruction...of human beings, environments, etc etc.
Most things that are considered "acts of god" are not...they are results of sin.
So who would the blame for the 04 tsunami fall onto? whose to blame if lightning strikes your house? Whose to blame if you slip and fall down a flight of stairs and break both legs? I'm not going to give anything caused by another person because that's "sin effecting the environment." Where does the environment alone effecting you fall under?Who do you think?
If you CHOOSE a course of action that leads to negative results, who is to blame? If you cheat on your spouse, get busted, have to go to court, lose custody of your children etc etc...whos fault is that? YOURS!
Many things happen because of what people CHOOSE.
Some "negative" or "bad" things that happen are nothing more then the result of sin. Sin causes death and destruction...of human beings, environments, etc etc.
Most things that are considered "acts of god" are not...they are results of sin.
One more thing Romeyo07...I have not meant to imply in any way that youre lost and going to hell because of your position, or anything of that sort. So, please dont read that into this discussion okay?
Once "saved" always "saved"??????????????????????????????
Impossible for a believer to become lost again?????????????????
What else does the Bible teach in addition to the IF's spoken of above.......
Paul recognized the Biblical possibility of being cast out of God's presence in the end unless he curbed the fleshly propensities to sin.
He said…, ". . . lest that by any means, when I have preached to others, I myself should be a castaway." 1 Corinthians 9:27.
The word Paul used - castaway - is very interesting. It is the Greek word "adokimos," which is translated "reprobate" in other places. In fact, 2 Cor 13:5 declares that Jesus Christ cannot dwell in the heart that is reprobate (adokimos). Titus 1:16 speaks of the abominable and disobedient who are "unto every good work reprobate (adokimos)."
Obviously Paul had nothing else in mind but that he could be lost IF he allowed sin to recapture his life
Paul also spoke of the possibility of born-again believers suffering damnation because they receive the Lord's Supper unworthily. "For he that eateth and drinketh unworthily, eateth and drinketh damnation to himself." 1 Corinthians 11:29.
No one would deny that these people were committed Christians partaking of the Biblical symbols of their redemption. Could they fall into damnation and be lost? The Bible says they could.
What damnation? The same Greek word (krima) is found in 1 Timothy 5:12. "Having damnation (krima) because they have cast off their first faith."
Hmmm… believers CAN "cast off their first faith" and go into final damnation. Makes perfect sense in light of the rest of Scripture.
Jesus said, "Except ye eat the flesh of the Son of man, and drink his blood, ye have no life in you." John 6:53.
What LIFE was He talking about? In verse 63 He explained, "The words that I speak unto you, they are spirit, and they are life."
Unless the Christian lives by the Word of God, he cannot continue to partake of the spiritual life derived from Christ.
Consider this...
“Cast not away therefore your confidence, which hath great recompense of reward. For ye have need of patience, that, after ye have done the will of God, ye might receive the promise. . . . Now the just shall live by faith; but if any man draw back unto perdition; but of them that believe to the saving of the soul." Heb 10 Verses 35 to 39.
Now how could anybody state any more clearly the fact that one's eternal salvation is conditional on his remaining steadfast to the very end? Unless there were a possibility that one might cast away his confidence, that he might draw back unto perdition, why would the Bible give such a warning????
Now heres a clear Scripture....
"For it is impossible for those who were once enlightened, and have tasted of the heavenly gift, and were made partakers of the Holy Ghost, And have tasted the good word of God, and the powers of the world to come, If they shall fall away, to renew them again unto repentance; seeing they crucify to themselves the Son of God afresh, and put him to an open shame."
There it is in plain Scripture…IT IS IMPOSSIBLE FOR THOSE WHO WERE ONCE “SAVED” and WHO HAVE FALLEN BACK INTO SIN TO BE RENEWED (“SAVED”) BY REPENTANCE AS LONG AS THEY CONTINUE TO COMMIT WILLFUL SIN….
It would be just about impossible to describe more perfectly a person who had been born again but who later rebelled against God and rejected Christ and rejected the Holy Spirit.
That person has placed himself out of God's reach by his own actions.
Therefore, there is no possibility that such a man can be saved as long as he continues to crucify Christ by his disobedience.
Hmm....sounds just like King Saul to me.
Saul was a sinner like all of us.
Saul listened to God.
He accepted Christ, became "saved".
Saul became the "Lords annointed"
Saul became King Saul.
Saul was given the gift of prophecy.
Saul was a prophet of God.
Saul returned to sin and disobedience of Gods law/word.
Saul consulted witches/satan
Saul was unable to hear God by his own action.
Saul commited murder ending His own life.
The Scripture is quite clear...mans invention of "once saved always saved" doesnt fly when examined in the light of the Word.
damn this shit got thick...
I'm not saying a believer can never become lost again. If someone chooses to turn their back to Him, then that's a different story. That is what these scriptures are targeting, those who not just make a mistake and fall into some sin, but those who have given up their cross and decide to continue to follow their flesh.
My arguement of salvation applies to those who are true believers who are not turning their back to Christ, but still struggle (which no one can deny happens). Not to say what you posted was unnecessary, but maybe I wasn't clear on my arguement. I completely agree with what you posted. If you turn your back to him, all that you mentioned should apply.
Saul turned his back to God, which explains everything. I should not be concered with losing my salvation, even through my struggles, if I always turn to Christ.
Nice doubletalk.
The Bible says CLEARLY a believer can become lost again. Saul did just that. Perhaps its not something youve understood or been taught and you dont yet fully accept it... thats fine. Thats your choice.
I never said you should be "concerned with losing your salvation"....I said that God has provided a way out of sin. Everyone struggles...primarily with giving up DOING THEIR OWN WILL.Saul turned his back to God, which explains everything. I should not be concered with losing my salvation, even through my struggles, if I always turn to Christ.
The Bible teaches that people continuing in willful sin will not be saved.
It doesnt teach that God abandons those who "struggle". On the contrary, it teaches that God is there and HE will do all the work IF you let Him, IF you SEEK Him, IF you follow His Word, IF you submit your will to Him.
IF you truly turn to Christ you wont keep on sinning the same sins over and over and over and over....its just a matter of that IF.
Thats the complete gospel...as opposed to the common false version taught in many churches that says in essense...just keep sinning and don't worry...because Jesus died for you. Jesus also LIVED for you and will live IN you.
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