Scripture a day (Islam Edition)

[Sinfix_15]

"My issue with them is why they support a religion that is responsible for a large number of crimes against humanity" - So, again, you believe that a book written 1500 years ago is responsible for these crimes, and not the individuals who chose to commit the crimes? Personal responsibility is thrown out the window as soon as you can blame religion? This is not consistent with your views on guns.

It is consistent with my beliefs on personal responsibility. If every gun i purchased came with a handbook instructing me to wage war on those who did not believe in what i did, then that would be a different story. What if i was a member of the KKK for no other reason than i liked being part of a club and enjoyed bon fires. I did not participate in any hateful action that the KKK endorsed. I am still a walking advertisement for a evil organization and i should take personal responsibility for that affiliation.

"My grievance with peaceful muslims is that even though they may not be participating in those acts, they add numbers to the presence and spread of Islam" - So, you have a problem with people that do not commit any crimes, live their lives in peace and for the betterment of society, just because they choose a religion that you do not like. Religious tolerance - something that this nation was founded upon, but you do not agree with.

Yes, this country was founded upon religious tolerance and our good nature is being used against us. We are tolerant of a religion who is not tolerant of our freedom of religion or freedom in general. Islam teaches that treachery is permitted to be victorious over infidels. Nothing about Islam embraces western culture. Their collective goal in having a presence here is to spread their way of life, not embrace ours. This is the disadvantage that every good in the world faces, that the rules we live by are not followed by those who oppose us. It's a simple idea..... you've seen Batman right?

"The world i want to live in is on where people decide not to rape, murder, steal or harm others for no other reason than that they realize its wrong."
Ahhh, a "utopian dreamer". It's great in sci-fi, but will never work in reality. As long as you have humans, you will have all of the crimes above.
Consider the quote from Jeffrey Dahmer, the atheist/serial killer/cannibal - "If a person doesn’t think there is a God to be accountable to, then—then what’s the point of trying to modify your behavior to keep it within acceptable ranges? That’s how I thought anyway. I always believed the theory of evolution as truth, that we all just came from the slime. When we, when we died, you know, that was it, there is nothing…" [An interview with Stone Phillips, Dateline NBC, Nov. 29, 1994].

I dont see how my view is utopian. I dont believe people need religion to be good people. I am a walking example of that. If religion is what is holding society together, why doesnt religion govern us?

[David88vert]

It is consistent with my beliefs on personal responsibility. If every gun i purchased came with a handbook instructing me to wage war on those who did not believe in what i did, then that would be a different story. What if i was a member of the KKK for no other reason than i liked being part of a club and enjoyed bon fires. I did not participate in any hateful action that the KKK endorsed. I am still a walking advertisement for a evil organization and i should take personal responsibility for that affiliation.

This is definitely one of your best responses.
So, basically, if you hang out with a Muslim, you are guilty by association then? Oops, you said that you have active Muslim friends. Have you told them that they are evil just for being Muslim yet? Have you told them that they are "walking advertisements for a evil organization"? How did they respond to that?

I grew up around some KKK members. They weren't really concerned about race, they talked a lot about the federal government taking over states' rights though, and argued for smaller federal government. I guess that kind of talk made them evil though, right? That's just a sidebar, don't worry about it.

Yes, this country was founded upon religious tolerance and our good nature is being used against us. We are tolerant of a religion who is not tolerant of our freedom of religion or freedom in general. Islam teaches that treachery is permitted to be victorious over infidels. Nothing about Islam embraces western culture. Their collective goal in having a presence here is to spread their way of life, not embrace ours. This is the disadvantage that every good in the world faces, that the rules we live by are not followed by those who oppose us. It's a simple idea..... you've seen Batman right?

So, you believe that religious tolerance is a bad thing now..... at least, that is what it sounds like you are communicating....

I find it interesting that you believe that this group of people keeps their "grand scheme to deceive" hidden for multiple generations, raising their children in western countries, and to live their entire lives within western cultures. I know quite a few Muslims that were born and raised in the US, and this "truth" that you seem to know has been completely hidden from them. Why would the Muslims hide this "truth" from their own children?
The ones that I have met surely seem to embrace the American way of life.

Have you heard of the "Ramadan Rush"? Tons of rich Arabs descend on London during the summer, racing their supercars around the streets, and living like westerners. They party in clubs, and basically break a lot of the rules. What does Islam have to gain by this behavior?

I dont see how my view is utopian. I dont believe people need religion to be good people. I am a walking example of that. If religion is what is holding society together, why doesnt religion govern us?

So, you believe that people don't need religion to be good, but Islam forces them to be bad? You are a good person without religion, but they are automatically bad because they have a religion?

[Sinfix_15]

This is definitely one of your best responses.
So, basically, if you hang out with a Muslim, you are guilty by association then? Oops, you said that you have active Muslim friends. Have you told them that they are evil just for being Muslim yet? Have you told them that they are "walking advertisements for a evil organization"? How did they respond to that?

I dont badger them, but theyre aware that i question their beliefs. I think questioning in general is healthy. Most reasonable people do not reject questioning. My friend at work reminds me of Geoff from this sight. He always makes his best attempt to answer the questions and engages in an open debate. My friends are the same way, sometimes they come back with a valid counter and sometimes they admit they dont understand. Overall it's a healthy debate and both sides are aware that they are opposing beliefs. They are more than aware that i do not endorse their religions. My sense of humor doesnt read well, i'm a little more charming in person.

I grew up around some KKK members. They weren't really concerned about race, they talked a lot about the federal government taking over states' rights though, and argued for smaller federal government. I guess that kind of talk made them evil though, right? That's just a sidebar, don't worry about it.

No, those beliefs do not make them evil. You help my claim in saying that "not all KKK members were bad" even though the KKK itself is indefensible. It was the whole part about not thinking black people were human beings with rights that made the KKK bad, not their political beliefs.

So, you believe that religious tolerance is a bad thing now..... at least, that is what it sounds like you are communicating....

Religious tolerance is not a bad thing, its a dangerous thing. The right path is not always the easy path. Being tolerant of outside religions opens a lot of doors for evil to infiltrate our society. It creates a certain level of danger. We accept this danger in the name of doing the right thing. I was joking when i used batman as an example, but that's a good example. Batman's job is more dangerous because he does it the right way. It would have been a lot easier to just shoot everyone up.

I find it interesting that you believe that this group of people keeps their "grand scheme to deceive" hidden for multiple generations, raising their children in western countries, and to live their entire lives within western cultures. I know quite a few Muslims that were born and raised in the US, and this "truth" that you seem to know has been completely hidden from them. Why would the Muslims hide this "truth" from their own children?
The ones that I have met surely seem to embrace the American way of life.

Not every piece on the board is a knight, some are just pawns. I dont believe the ones who embrace the american way of life are following the scripture as it was intended. That is a compliment to them. My question is why do they continue to claim affiliation to islam.... is it because they like the bon fires?

Have you heard of the "Ramadan Rush"? Tons of rich Arabs descend on London during the summer, racing their supercars around the streets, and living like westerners. They party in clubs, and basically break a lot of the rules. What does Islam have to gain by this behavior?

I could argue that it's a display of masculinity. This is a common practice throughout Islam. It's a male dominant religion and a lot of it involves gamesmanship and grandstanding. It's easier to paint these actions as mockery than it is to say theyre embracing western culture. Sharia law also permits "breaking the rules" to deceive infidels.

So, you believe that people don't need religion to be good, but Islam forces them to be bad? You are a good person without religion, but they are automatically bad because they have a religion?

I didnt say theyre automatically bad.... the "good muslims" are the "KKK members who just like bon fires"

[David88vert]

I dont badger them, but theyre aware that i question their beliefs. I think questioning in general is healthy. Most reasonable people do not reject questioning. My friend at work reminds me of Geoff from this sight. He always makes his best attempt to answer the questions and engages in an open debate. My friends are the same way, sometimes they come back with a valid counter and sometimes they admit they dont understand. Overall it's a healthy debate and both sides are aware that they are opposing beliefs. They are more than aware that i do not endorse their religions. My sense of humor doesnt read well, i'm a little more charming in person.

To me, that sounds much more reasonable that your earlier statements. Of course, I agree that questioning is not a bad thing.

No, those beliefs do not make them evil. You help my claim in saying that "not all KKK members were bad" even though the KKK itself is indefensible. It was the whole part about not thinking black people were human beings with rights that made the KKK bad, not their political beliefs.

I think that your use of the KKK argument was definitely a solid and rational point.

There's only one problem - one of the people that they hung out with during these discussions was an old black man. They didn't seem to have any problems with respecting his opinion, and certainly didn't see him as a "lesser man" (granted that he was the only black man in their group, and not a member as far as I know). So, where were they evil/bad/terrible?

Religious tolerance is not a bad thing, its a dangerous thing. The right path is not always the easy path. Being tolerant of outside religions opens a lot of doors for evil to infiltrate our society. It creates a certain level of danger. We accept this danger in the name of doing the right thing. I was joking when i used batman as an example, but that's a good example. Batman's job is more dangerous because he does it the right way. It would have been a lot easier to just shoot everyone up.

So, what is your solution? Would you force everyone that is Muslim into concentration camps, exile them out of the country, stop allowing any Muslim immigrants into the US, etc? Do we stop having religious tolerance in the US and become "un-American"?

Not every piece on the board is a knight, some are just pawns. I dont believe the ones who embrace the american way of life are following the scripture as it was intended. That is a compliment to them. My question is why do they continue to claim affiliation to islam.... is it because they like the bon fires?

So, you believe that these children born in America are being deceived from birth? What advantage is that to this "grand Islamic plot"?
Perhaps the Islamic scriptures that they were preached to by the iman taught them to live in peace and harmony? Or is that too difficult for you to believe?
See, I know Muslims here in America that have raised their children to adults, and I know other Muslims completely unrelated to the others that are currently raising their children to be peaceful. I'm talking about different Muslims, with different backgrounds, some born in the US, some in other countries, some raised since birth to be Muslim, and others who have converted is Islam. They all have in common their peaceful integration into the American way of life. This knowledge that I have of them at a close, personal level run completely contrary to what you have been stating over and over again. Do you think that these unrelated groups (they don't know each other) somehow are being controlled and brainwashed to be enemies of yours without any common denominators? That does not seem logical to me.

I could argue that it's a display of masculinity. This is a common practice throughout Islam. It's a male dominant religion and a lot of it involves gamesmanship and grandstanding. It's easier to paint these actions as mockery than it is to say theyre embracing western culture. Sharia law also permits "breaking the rules" to deceive infidels.

Actually, it's a bunch of Islamic kids that just go to London each summer and have fun, then go back home in time for the prayers and fasting. There is no "mocking" of western culture - they do this every year and love it. It's no different than American college kids heading down to Daytona. You are making baseless assumptions about something you know nothing about. They aren't deceiving anyone, they are just having a good time - unless you believe that somehow every single one of them is an active terrorist just there to scout out targets.

I didnt say theyre automatically bad.... the "good muslims" are the "KKK members who just like bon fires"

So then, by your statement - you believe that people don't need religion to be good, but "good Muslims" are walking advertisements for evil.

You know, I saw a lot of condemnation for the Boston bombers from the Muslim community. How does that work with "hanging around the bonfire"?

[Sinfix_15]

There's only one problem - one of the people that they hung out with during these discussions was an old black man. They didn't seem to have any problems with respecting his opinion, and certainly didn't see him as a "lesser man" (granted that he was the only black man in their group, and not a member as far as I know). So, where were they evil/bad/terrible?

They endorse evil. There's no way to wear the KKK brand without accepting this reality. If you are a member of the KKK, i dont care if you spend every waking hour doing charity and good deeds, you are endorsing a brand that promotes evil. Your good deeds are masking the designed purpose of that organization and contributing to it's recruitment.

So, what is your solution? Would you force everyone that is Muslim into concentration camps, exile them out of the country, stop allowing any Muslim immigrants into the US, etc? Do we stop having religious tolerance in the US and become "un-American"?

Step 1 is to make sure that our own citizens and customs are reinforced and that our open people are empowered to be free individuals. A major contributor to that idea is your 2nd amendment rights. As long as the US is strong and free, we have no worries of being ruled. Current policy weakens civil liberty, freedom and our ability as individuals to repel these problems. Tolerance of religion can be mated with awareness. Rather than us being apologetic to the radical aspects of Islam, we should openly condemn them and punish their crimes to the fullest extent of the law. Sharia law should never be honored on american soil and every individual who becomes an american citizen should be protected by our laws.

So, you believe that these children born in America are being deceived from birth? What advantage is that to this "grand Islamic plot"?
Perhaps the Islamic scriptures that they were preached to by the iman taught them to live in peace and harmony? Or is that too difficult for you to believe?
See, I know Muslims here in America that have raised their children to adults, and I know other Muslims completely unrelated to the others that are currently raising their children to be peaceful. I'm talking about different Muslims, with different backgrounds, some born in the US, some in other countries, some raised since birth to be Muslim, and others who have converted is Islam. They all have in common their peaceful integration into the American way of life. This knowledge that I have of them at a close, personal level run completely contrary to what you have been stating over and over again. Do you think that these unrelated groups (they don't know each other) somehow are being controlled and brainwashed to be enemies of yours without any common denominators? That does not seem logical to me.

I dont see how this changes anything. The scripture is what it is. They are not following the scripture, they are taking some of the scripture as a guide. I support some religious practices, but i claim no religion. I would never endorse any religion in it's entirety. I dont know why these people you know feel the need to endorse Islam. I guess its human nature to want to belong to a group, and when no group completely suits you, you simply chose one, or inherit it from your parents.

Actually, it's a bunch of Islamic kids that just go to London each summer and have fun, then go back home in time for the prayers and fasting. There is no "mocking" of western culture - they do this every year and love it. It's no different than American college kids heading down to Daytona. You are making baseless assumptions about something you know nothing about. They aren't deceiving anyone, they are just having a good time - unless you believe that somehow every single one of them is an active terrorist just there to scout out targets.

Again, the theme is that these people are not following the scripture. They are casual observers of Islam. My "beef" is with the religion itself. My other argument was a stretch.

So then, by your statement - you believe that people don't need religion to be good, but "good Muslims" are walking advertisements for evil.

You know, I saw a lot of condemnation for the Boston bombers from the Muslim community. How does that work with "hanging around the bonfire"?

Analogy still applies..... those "good muslims" attended the bon fire, then went home when the rest of the Klan went out and burned crosses and hung people. As long as they claim Islam, theyre walking advertisements for what happens on behalf of islam. The extremism exists in the texts, not everyone embraces it, but it is always there. as long as the text is promoted, some portion of people will adopt the radical views contained within. Unintentionally, your muslim friends are contributing to this problem. The boston bombers are a great example. They appeared perfectly normal to everyone around them, they probably were good people at some point in time..... eventually their life's course led them to discover the extremism contained within Islam and they fell victim to it. That's Islam..... a bed of flowers planted around the gate of a slaughter house. Some people can stop, pick a flower and walk away.... others see the flowers and walk inside.

[David88vert]

They endorse evil. There's no way to wear the KKK brand without accepting this reality. If you are a member of the KKK, i dont care if you spend every waking hour doing charity and good deeds, you are endorsing a brand that promotes evil. Your good deeds are masking the designed purpose of that organization and contributing to it's recruitment.

Got it. All people who do good, live good lives, are always peaceful, and help others, are evil scum if they have any association with any group that ever does evil.
By that understanding - all atheists are now deemed to be serial killers and mass murderers due to guilt by association, right?

Step 1 is to make sure that our own citizens and customs are reinforced and that our open people are empowered to be free individuals. A major contributor to that idea is your 2nd amendment rights. As long as the US is strong and free, we have no worries of being ruled. Current policy weakens civil liberty, freedom and our ability as individuals to repel these problems. Tolerance of religion can be mated with awareness. Rather than us being apologetic to the radical aspects of Islam, we should openly condemn them and punish their crimes to the fullest extent of the law. Sharia law should never be honored on american soil and every individual who becomes an american citizen should be protected by our laws.

Step 1 - What "customs" are you referring to? The rest of it seems to be business as usual. I don't see you changing anything that we already do.
We already try and convict individuals for the crimes that they commit, regardless of any religious rational. We don't try and convict people based upon their religious affiliations though. Would you suggest that we start doing that?
I am not aware of anyone being arrested, tried, or convicted in the US judicial system based upon any Sharia laws, only US federal and state laws. I have never even heard anyone suggest that our courts use Sharia law. Where do you even come up with that statement?

Step 2 is what? What action items do you think that we should implement into law? Genuine interest here.

I dont see how this changes anything. The scripture is what it is. They are not following the scripture, they are taking some of the scripture as a guide. I support some religious practices, but i claim not religion. I would never endorse any religion in it's entirety. I dont know why these people you know feel the need to endorse Islam. I guess its human nature to want to belong to a group, and when no group completely suits you, you simply chose one, or inherit it from your parents.

I'm simply asking you how these Muslims fit into your "gran scheme of Islam". That's all. I don't see how Islam can "take over and dominate the world", when their own people aren't even in on it, nor would support any such action.
How would they even coordinate that large of a group of people logistically?

So, based upon your earlier statements, you seem to think that people should need a religious guide (instructions) for being "good people" with morals. I see that most people can't even do the most basic things without some sort of instructions. Just basic cooking of food seems to need detailed instructions on how to make it editable, but somehow you think that these same people that need instructions on how high to turn up the head on their oven are going to be able to make moral judgment calls with no instructions. The same non-church-going people that rob, cheat, kill, steal, etc today with no second thought. I just don't buy it.

Again, the theme is that these people are not following the scripture. They are casual observers of Islam. My "beef" is with the religion itself. My other argument was a stretch.

They observe every peaceful instruction that they are taught, and pray 5 times a day as instructed, but they are just "casual observers", according to you. As long as they don't rape, steal, and kill, they aren't Muslims according to your "rules" - that's about right, isn't it?

Analogy still applies..... those "good muslims" attended the bon fire, then went home when the rest of the Klan went out and burned crosses and hung people. As long as they claim Islam, theyre walking advertisements for what happens on behalf of islam. The extremism exists in the texts, not everyone embraces it, but it is always there. as long as the text is promoted, some portion of people will adopt the radical views contained within. Unintentionally, your muslim friends are contributing to this problem. The boston bombers are a great example. They appeared perfectly normal to everyone around them, they probably were good people at some point in time..... eventually their life's course led them to discover the extremism contained within Islam and they fell victim to it. That's Islam..... a bed of flowers planted around the gate of a slaughter house. Some people can stop, pick a flower and walk away.... others see the flowers and walk inside.

Guilt by association. Luckily, you aren't in our legal system.

[Sinfix_15]

Got it. All people who do good, live good lives, are always peaceful, and help others, are evil scum if they have any association with any group that ever does evil.
By that understanding - all atheists are now deemed to be serial killers and mass murderers due to guilt by association, right?

I dont view atheist as a group for one. Not believing is not a belief in itself. I am an individual. It's the religious who chose to brand me with a label.

You're taking my comment to the extreme. Not guilty by association, or guilty in any regard. They empower a religious group that is designed to do evil. They are enablers. Islam is what it is, if you chose to cherry pick the good parts and still call yourself a muslim, whether you like it or not, you are empowering those who take islam literally and too the extreme.

Step 1 - What "customs" are you referring to? The rest of it seems to be business as usual. I don't see you changing anything that we already do.
We already try and convict individuals for the crimes that they commit, regardless of any religious rational. We don't try and convict people based upon their religious affiliations though. Would you suggest that we start doing that?
I am not aware of anyone being arrested, tried, or convicted in the US judicial system based upon any Sharia laws, only US federal and state laws. I have never even heard anyone suggest that our courts use Sharia law. Where do you even come up with that statement?

Step 2 is what? What action items do you think that we should implement into law? Genuine interest here.

Our government is for sale to the highest bidder. I have no confidence in it's ability to stand up for traditional american beliefs. Our current president said "the future must not belong to those who slander the profit of islam". By american laws, the profit muhammad is a rapist, pedophile and murderer and the disdain for him is free speech. Step 2 would be to stop the global campaigning and focus on preserving the rights of american citizens. Anyone who enters this country should know that we are a country that doesnt oppress women, force children into marriage, allow husbands to beat their wives or allow people to be disfigured. The campaign should be to condemn these aspects of Islam, not to be tolerant of them. If your muslim friends are as peaceful as they claim to be, they will endorse that message as well rather than take steps to protect islam from free speech. Our president apologized for a video made by an individual even under the false premise that the video caused americans to be killed in protest. This is the wrong direction for america. Our own government promotes a message that we should be ashamed of our freedom while at the same time apologizing to all of the radicals of the world. I want a president of the united states, not a president of the united nations.

I'm simply asking you how these Muslims fit into your "gran scheme of Islam". That's all. I don't see how Islam can "take over and dominate the world", when their own people aren't even in on it, nor would support any such action.
How would they even coordinate that large of a group of people logistically?

Those people are the pawns. They are the veil that makes people like you defend islam. The islamic extremist do not need to coordinate a large group, thier current model of attack is to push propaganda in hopes of generating lone wolf acts of terrorism. The seed of hate has been planted, it exists in the texts of the Koran. Islam waters those seeds, some grow, some dont. It only takes 1 person..... the boston bombing was acted out by two people, who appeared normal to their friends. They could have easily been one of your friends who you are currently defending. Every time something like that happens everybody says "omg i didnt expect that", why not? it's all laid out by the Koran.

So, based upon your earlier statements, you seem to think that people should need a religious guide (instructions) for being "good people" with morals. I see that most people can't even do the most basic things without some sort of instructions. Just basic cooking of food seems to need detailed instructions on how to make it editable, but somehow you think that these same people that need instructions on how high to turn up the head on their oven are going to be able to make moral judgment calls with no instructions. The same non-church-going people that rob, cheat, kill, steal, etc today with no second thought. I just don't buy it.

governments and religious groups have killed way more people than the nonreligious, yet governments and religions continue to preach that the world would be chaos without either of them.

They observe every peaceful instruction that they are taught, and pray 5 times a day as instructed, but they are just "casual observers", according to you. As long as they don't rape, steal, and kill, they aren't Muslims according to your "rules" - that's about right, isn't it?

Nope, they are not following the instruction of the Koran, they are casual observers who cherry picked from a religion the things they liked and lack the courage to renounce the religion itself. They need to belong to something. It's not easy to admit the simplicity of our existence for some people. These people are ignorant, if not evil. Islam is evil.

[Sinfix_15]

I'm mentally exhausted for today........

I'll pick up another scripture in the next couple days. In the mean time, i'm going to take a break and limit my posts to mocking Blank's unbelievable hypocrisy.

[Sinfix_15]

Should I start in genesis with the talking snake? Or how about the myth of Noah's ark? Or Moses magically parting the Red sea? You're right though. I turned my back on the Judeo-Christian god. Especially after I read the bible, the only written account of his "existence". Based on this account, why worship a deity who is evil and jealous? Between the thousands of gods people around the globe worship, how can we be sure he's the correct one? If he is the correct one, why would he create a world where over 90% of its inhabitants are damned to hell for all eternity?

I agree blank, more than half of the Koran speaks ill will of those who do not believe in Islam. why worship a deity who is evil and jealous. If god created the world, why did he put all of the muslims right slam in the middle of earth's asshole where millions of people are damned to death, slavery and turmoil.

This is why I absolutely reject the Judeo-Christian god. According to the bible, no matter how many women I rape, no matter how many people I kill, as long as I repent, he will forgive my transgressions and I will be accepted into the kingdom of heaven. However, if I fall in love with another man or think for myself, I'll burn in hell for all eternity.


If there are a bunch of rapists and murderers in heaven and a bunch of my friends and other atheists in hell, I think I'd take my chances in hell

I agree with you blank, no matter how many women Muslims torture, rape and disfigure, they are permitted to do so by their religion. If i have to enjoy my 72 virgins in heaven with a bunch of rapists, murders and pedophiles, i think i will take my chances in hell.

So you want me to show you scientific proof of something that isn't bound by physics, without using science?


The Judeo-Christian god isn't the only god. You refer to the old testament like it doesn't apply anymore. Are we to believe that believers are no longer bound by the ten commandments? Or by any law put fourth in the old testament?


So since slavery was back in the day, and it was the norm, it was ok? Paid slavery is no longer slavery proper, they're called servants, indentured or otherwise.


You dont believe in Gods will? It's laid out perfectly clear in the bible who he condemns.

I agree blank, since beheading, disfigurement, slavery and pedophilia was the norm back then it was ok?? You cant turn your back on the will of Allah, the Koran lays it out perfectly clear.