Christians come on in

[Nerdsrock22]

If I believed that why would I spend one nanosecond of any of the insignificant time that my tiny speck of existence allows on arguing anything on the internet. I would spend my time wisely by raping and pillaging anything and everything I could, because... What's the point of going to some mundane job everyday and obeying some "laws" another human being tried to place on me as a form of "control"? All there is to this world is what I can see and touch.

This. I seriously don't understand why atheists bother fitting into society. If there is no Greater morality, then why even bother?

[msanch24]

This. I seriously don't understand why atheists bother fitting into society. If there is no Greater morality, then why even bother?

Makes for some troublesome thoughts for sure.

But let me try to offer my POV anyway.

I look for the little things, you know? Those tiny little things in life that generate such a large emotional response. I've talked about music before. My guitars are my best friends. I had any instance one time where music literally saved my life. Since then, I try my damnedest to pay my respects by making the best music i possibly can. You could almost call it my religion.

But that's quite a big thing isn't it? In those big things, are all the little things that make life worth living to the best of your ability. It is only by fitting into society that I can perpetuate my participation in these things. If I went around raping and pillaging, well, sooner or later I'd be caught and thrown in jail or sentenced to death. That would be the end of my music, the end of everything that makes me love life (cars, nature, friends).

I'm finding it hard to put the right words down, but I hope i offer some decent points.

[Nerdsrock22]

Makes for some troublesome thoughts for sure.

But let me try to offer my POV anyway.

I look for the little things, you know? Those tiny little things in life that generate such a large emotional response. I've talked about music before. My guitars are my best friends. I had any instance one time where music literally saved my life. Since then, I try my damnedest to pay my respects by making the best music i possibly can. You could almost call it my religion.

But that's quite a big thing isn't it? In those big things, are all the little things that make life worth living to the best of your ability. It is only by fitting into society that I can perpetuate my participation in these things. If I went around raping and pillaging, well, sooner or later I'd be caught and thrown in jail or sentenced to death. That would be the end of my music, the end of everything that makes me love life (cars, nature, friends). It had to be ingrained into our being with purpose.

I'm finding it hard to put the right words down, but I hope i offer some decent points.

No, that makes perfect sense. And I'm definitely on the same page as you with music (and cars, nature, and friends) for that matter. But it's in those things and through those things that I worship God. I think I made this point earlier, but I can't imagine that any of those things (or at least appreciation of them) would exist without intentionally being created.

Art (be it music, photography, or car modification) is to me, one of the greatest indications of a higher power. It has no use in the natural "animal" world, and thus, has had no reason to evolve and become an integral part of humanity's existence.

[msanch24]

Art (be it music, photography, or car modification) is to me, one of the greatest indications of a higher power. It has no use in the natural "animal" world, and thus, has had no reason to evolve and become an integrate part of humanity's existence.

Now this I understand...Very well made point. I'll have to mill this one over...

[bu villain]

I can't imagine that any of those things (or at least appreciation of them) would exist without intentionally being created.

Reality doesn't require you to be able to imagine it.

Art (be it music, photography, or car modification) is to me, one of the greatest indications of a higher power. It has no use in the natural "animal" world, and thus, has had no reason to evolve and become an integral part of humanity's existence.

Skills and asthetics are clearly useful in the "natural animal world" (strange term). Also you shouldn't assume nature is some perfect process where nothing unnecessary happens, evolution is perfectly efficient, etc. Something you may or may not find interesting:

http://news.nationalgeographic.com/n...5biomusic.html

As someone who considers themself an ethical atheist. I would be glad to answer any of your questions regarding why I don't go around murdering and stealing from everyone I meet.

[Nerdsrock22]

Reality doesn't require you to be able to imagine it.

I don't admit that it isn't speculative, else I would have worded it in a different way. I'll be the first to admit that I don't have everything figured out. I still ask myself these questions all the time and struggle with the tough issues. Any Christian who doesn't hasn't thought about. That being said, speculation is prevalent in both science and faith. Unless you somehow obtained omniscience, you are going to have to fill in the holes at some point.

Skills and asthetics are clearly useful in the "natural animal world" (strange term). Also you shouldn't assume nature is some perfect process where nothing unnecessary happens, evolution is perfectly efficient, etc. Something you may or may not find interesting:

http://news.nationalgeographic.com/n...5biomusic.html

Interesting article. I have no doubt that animals can make pretty sounding noises. Call it music if you want, but it's not art anymore than a flower's petals are a work of it's own design. Until I see a whale create a song that communicates complex abstract ideas through that medium, I stand unconvinced.

As someone who considers themself an ethical atheist. I would be glad to answer any of your questions regarding why I don't go around murdering and stealing from everyone I meet.

I'll retract that statement.

[bu villain]

Unless you somehow obtained omniscience, you are going to have to fill in the holes at some point.

While I agree it is worthwile to seek those answers, I don't feel there is anything wrong with not knowing the answer to many of those big mysteries.

Interesting article. I have no doubt that animals can make pretty sounding noises. Call it music if you want, but it's not art anymore than a flower's petals are a work of it's own design. Until I see a whale create a song that communicates complex abstract ideas through that medium, I stand unconvinced.

It sounds like we just disagree with the definition of music. Someone can play Mary had a little lamb on their phone (which is music), but I don't see what complex abstract idea that is trying to get across. The main idea of the article is that some animals make sounds which match the patterns of human music that don't seem to serve any utilitarian purpose.

[Echonova]

As someone who considers themself an ethical atheist. I would be glad to answer any of your questions regarding why I don't go around murdering and stealing from everyone I meet.

I'll bite.


Why not?

[bu villain]

I'll bite.


Why not?

Just a few

1. I don't want to go to jail
2. I don't want someone's family or friends coming after me
3. If I act this way, others may be more likely to also act this way which could in turn cause me pain later
4. If I attack someone, they may be able to defend themselves and hurt me
5. My job has a better hourly rate than robbing random people
6. Blood is messy

[Echonova]

5. My job has a better hourly rate than robbing random people

Amen.

[RL...]

No, that makes perfect sense. And I'm definitely on the same page as you with music (and cars, nature, and friends) for that matter. But it's in those things and through those things that I worship God. I think I made this point earlier, but I can't imagine that any of those things (or at least appreciation of them) would exist without intentionally being created.

Art (be it music, photography, or car modification) is to me, one of the greatest indications of a higher power. It has no use in the natural "animal" world, and thus, has had no reason to evolve and become an integral part of humanity's existence.

People listen to music for things like entertainment and relaxing which, I mean come on what animals don't like to relax? People take pictures because for entertainment and for jobs to earn money to buy food and to keep ourselves sheltered which is natural instinct. People mod cars because we are reckless animals that like doing stupid shit and getting adrenaline rushes and also because a nice car is a status symbol which can help us get girls to reproduce with, all very basic instincts. See, all natural stuff here. =D

[quickdodge®]

but I can't imagine that any of those things (or at least appreciation of them) would exist without intentionally being created.

But you can imagine an unseen spirit just saying "let it be" and it is?

I'm not attacking you as I see both sides of the debate. Hard to imagine an explosion creating this, but it's also hard to think that something/someone that can never be proven to exist just said "let it be."

To me, it's completely fascinating. Later, QD.

[Nerdsrock22]

But you can imagine an unseen spirit just saying "let it be" and it is?

I'm not attacking you as I see both sides of the debate. Hard to imagine an explosion creating this, but it's also hard to think that something/someone that can never be proven to exist just said "let it be."

To me, it's completely fascinating. Later, QD.

Great point. I won't pretend to say that I came to my beliefs through a scientific and reasoned march through logistic deduction. But frankly, I don't think I have to. When I examine what I see in the world, and how it interacts with itself, and what makes people truly happy, Christianity makes the most sense to me. Self-sacrifice, humility, peace, respect, kindness, justice and forgiveness are what I need, and in my belief, what the world needs. If at the end of it, it's all a sham, I can stand tall (or lay dead) knowing that I lived a good life that wasn't in vain.

But don't peg me as some kind of anti-science fundamentalist. I see God and science as perfect partners, and scientific discovery can find itself threaded with theology, and vice versa. Quantum mechanics, evolutionary theory, relative theory are all perfect compliments to Christianity in my opinion. If science discovers something radical and seemingly contradictory with my idea of God, that doesn't mean God is somehow discounted or "proved" wrong, only that our idea of God, what we "created" him as was incorrect.

[bu villain]

Great point. I won't pretend to say that I came to my beliefs through a scientific and reasoned march through logistic deduction. But frankly, I don't think I have to. When I examine what I see in the world, and how it interacts with itself, and what makes people truly happy, Christianity makes the most sense to me. Self-sacrifice, humility, peace, respect, kindness, justice and forgiveness are what I need, and in my belief, what the world needs. If at the end of it, it's all a sham, I can stand tall (or lay dead) knowing that I lived a good life that wasn't in vain.

But don't peg me as some kind of anti-science fundamentalist. I see God and science as perfect partners, and scientific discovery can find itself threaded with theology, and vice versa. Quantum mechanics, evolutionary theory, relative theory are all perfect compliments to Christianity in my opinion. If science discovers something radical and seemingly contradictory with my idea of God, that doesn't mean God is somehow discounted or "proved" wrong, only that our idea of God, what we "created" him as was incorrect.

If all Christians shared these sentiments (and many do), the world would be a better place and Christianity would not be bashed the way it often is now. Of course, this is all in my opinion.

[quickdodge®]

But don't peg me as some kind of anti-science fundamentalist.

Just as I'm not anti-God by any means. I drive about 450-500 miles 5 days a week. As much as I can, I love to drive them on back roads; country roads. I love the scenery and picturing it as I think it would be if there were no civilization there. Either way we got here has to be an amazing, fascinating story/event. I always think that if there truly is a God that did all this, that He did make one mistake....and it's a doozy of one, too.

He put humans here. Later, QD.

[ahabion]

Great point. I won't pretend to say that I came to my beliefs through a scientific and reasoned march through logistic deduction. But frankly, I don't think I have to. When I examine what I see in the world, and how it interacts with itself, and what makes people truly happy, Christianity makes the most sense to me. Self-sacrifice, humility, peace, respect, kindness, justice and forgiveness are what I need, and in my belief, what the world needs. If at the end of it, it's all a sham, I can stand tall (or lay dead) knowing that I lived a good life that wasn't in vain.

But don't peg me as some kind of anti-science fundamentalist. I see God and science as perfect partners, and scientific discovery can find itself threaded with theology, and vice versa. Quantum mechanics, evolutionary theory, relative theory are all perfect compliments to Christianity in my opinion. If science discovers something radical and seemingly contradictory with my idea of God, that doesn't mean God is somehow discounted or "proved" wrong, only that our idea of God, what we "created" him as was incorrect.

I'm sure it was just lack of better terms but I wouldn't put 'partnered'... I would more venture to say that the evidence found in scientific findings could speculate that it could lead back to God. To say the otherwise would mean, to me, that God is no higher than what we as men can justify; that certainly is not my God.