Christians come on in

[Echonova]

Indeed, much the same way just because you believe a book is fictional, doesn't mean that it is. But this is the crux of religious debates, people wanting proof of what cannot be proven... Well, not by "circumstantial" evidence (in the eyes of a non-believer). But the good thing about my faith is it does not require you to believe, nor does it require me to force my beliefs upon you. I'm not here to change your mind, but merely to point out you will never change mine either. We are all free to worship "God"... or not. That's part of the beauty of free will.

I doubt any serious followers of Allah would give you the same choice given the right opportunity. But it's politically incorrect to make fun of them.

Christians are often the target of ridicule (much like the purpose if this thread, no meaningful knowledge was ever sought IMO) because of our views... Get one to stray from whatever your view of "righteousness" is, and we're all hypocrites right? While there are hypocrites in this world, I'll be the first to admit I'm no Saint that people should follow either. I'm a simple man just like you. I happened to find some (not all) of the answers I was looking for in Church or to a larger extent God. Maybe your answers are elsewhere... IDK.

With all that being said, I cannot fathom the thought that somehow we just won the Galactic lottery with the Big Bang and by some random coincidence just "happened" to form from a primordial ooze from some random anomaly that occurred Trillions of years ago. If I believed that why would I spend one nanosecond of any of the insignificant time that my tiny speck of existence allows on arguing anything on the internet. I would spend my time wisely by raping and pillaging anything and everything I could, because... What's the point of going to some mundane job everyday and obeying some "laws" another human being tried to place on me as a form of "control"? All there is to this world is what I can see and touch.

Right?













































There is no such thing as coincidence.

[bu villain]

I would spend my time wisely by raping and pillaging anything and everything I could, because... What's the point of going to some mundane job everyday and obeying some "laws" another human being tried to place on me as a form of "control"? All there is to this world is what I can see and touch.

Right?

Please don't equate non religousness with lack of morality and anarchism. That's just as offensive as the ridicule your are decrying.

I must quickly respond to two of your points:
1. Your implication that many hold the belief that only what we can see and touch is true is innacurate. Noone can directly see or feel that a star is a gaseous ball millions of miles away but I doubt anyone in this thread would deny that's what stars are.

2. Your characterizations of the big bang and the evolution of the universe as being "random" are also not accurate. Just because we don't know why certain things are the way they are doesn't mean it must be random. Just as rolling a die is not random despite how it appears. If you knew all the starting factors (starting angle and velocity, friction of the table, weighting of the die, etc) you could calculate how the die would end up before it was rolled.

I don't mean to insult you in any way but I just wanted to inform you that you may be unintentionally joining in a practice which it seems you do not condone. I think if many religous people simply stated, many of their beliefs were scientifically unproveable or even sometimes illogical, but never the less felt undeniable to them and helped them to lead more fulfilled and enjoyable lives, there would be a lot less animosity between the religious and non-religious groups.

[ahabion]

2. Your characterizations of the big bang and the evolution of the universe as being "random" are also not accurate. Just because we don't know why certain things are the way they are doesn't mean it must be random. Just as rolling a die is not random despite how it appears. If you knew all the starting factors (starting angle and velocity, friction of the table, weighting of the die, etc) you could calculate how the die would end up before it was rolled.

Intelligent Design!

I don't mean to insult you in any way but I just wanted to inform you that you may be unintentionally joining in a practice which it seems you do not condone. I think if many religous people simply stated, many of their beliefs were scientifically unproveable or even sometimes illogical, but never the less felt undeniable to them and helped them to lead more fulfilled and enjoyable lives, there would be a lot less animosity between the religious and non-religious groups.

You sir, speak of faith!

Bu, by your very definition summarized the entirety of this section of the forum, in all seriousness. From a Christian viewpoint, God is scientifically unprovable, very much tangibly and humanly illogical or a complete wonder/mystery, but yet completely undeniable for those who call God, Abba, and who thus will live a more fulfilled life through faith.

[bu villain]

Intelligent Design!

Ah yes! What was I thinking.

You sir, speak of faith!

Bu, by your very definition summarized the entirety of this section of the forum, in all seriousness. From a Christian viewpoint, God is scientifically unprovable, very much tangibly and humanly illogical or a complete wonder/mystery, but yet completely undeniable for those who call God, Abba, and who thus will live a more fulfilled life through faith.

Yes exactly! But many people of faith try to convince others that their religious beliefs are based on scientific evidence, rather than just faith. And that's where conflict often begins.

[msanch24]

(much like the purpose if this thread, no meaningful knowledge was ever sought IMO)

What the hell? I'm not allowed to question? To ask for discussion? I may not be easily influenced, but I'm offended by this statement. I'm on the search for evidence. Reason to believe. Because you are unable to give me this, you infer that the thread is a mockery?

[Echonova]

What the hell? I'm not allowed to question? To ask for discussion? I may not be easily influenced, but I'm offended by this statement. I'm on the search for evidence. Reason to believe. Because you are unable to give me this, you infer that the thread is a mockery?

Uh... Yeah. If you truly wanted a reason to believe you would be doing the research for yourself, not relying on random people from the internet to feed you potentially "false" information.

You're asking on a automotive-based internet forum... For someone to prove God exists to you.


GLWS

"OMG post #143 changed my life"... Could happen, just saying it's not likely.


But you go on being offended.

[msanch24]

Uh... Yeah. If you truly wanted a reason to believe you would be doing the research for yourself, not relying on random people from the internet to feed you potentially "false" information.

You're asking on a automotive-based internet forum... For someone to prove God exists to you.


GLWS

"OMG post #143 changed my life"... Could happen, just saying it's not likely.


But you go on being offended.

I look everywhere for information. I read and talk with as many people as possible. If that means asking a forum that I frequent, then "uh... yeah", I do that. Don't think you're so special that this is my first exploration in the matter. I have gotten some GREAT responses by the people in this thread, as well as a new list of books to read.

You can keep the shit to yourself in here, man. You have absolutely no reason to think that I had mocking intentions.

[Echonova]

I look everywhere for information. I read and talk with as many people as possible. If that means asking a forum that I frequent, then "uh... yeah", I do that. Don't think you're so special that this is my first exploration in the matter. I have gotten some GREAT responses by the people in this thread, as well as a new list of books to read.

You can keep the shit to yourself in here, man. You have absolutely no reason to think that I had mocking intentions.

Did you not read your first post? It absolutely drips with sarcasm.

Convince me to believe in a god.

What's your indisputable, scientific, hard evidence? I don't mean "because the bible says so". Or "I knew a guy who died and God made him breathe again". Give me a tangible, logical reason to accept a faith.

I await enlightenment.

Why only God?

Perhaps your answers are with Allah in the Qur'an

Or Hinduism, read the 4 Vedas, 18 Puranas and thousands of other texts, prominent amongst them being, Bhagawat Gita,Ramayana and Mahabharata

Why only Christianity? Why are you only looking to have such a narrow dogmatic view of the world?

Prove to me your serious about learning and we can talk.


But I want indisputable, scientific, hard evidence your serious. I don't mean "because the I said so". Or "I knew a guy who read the Bible once and believed in God after". Give me a tangible, logical reason to accept your serious.


I await enlightenment.

[msanch24]

Did you not read your first post? It absolutely drips with sarcasm.

Why only God?

Perhaps your answers are with Allah in the Qur'an

Or Hinduism, read the 4 Vedas, 18 Puranas and thousands of other texts, prominent amongst them being, Bhagawat Gita,Ramayana and Mahabharata

Why only Christianity? Why are you only looking to have such a narrow dogmatic view of the world?

Prove to me your serious about learning and we can talk.


But I want indisputable, scientific, hard evidence your serious. I don't mean "because the I said so". Or "I knew a guy who read the Bible once and believed in God after". Give me a tangible, logical reason to accept your serious.


I await enlightenment.

See, the great thing about it is, I don't have to prove shit to you. You interpreted it as sarcasm. Well, that's not my fault, man. That would be your own cynical outlook that caused that. Take this to PM's so you don't clutter up my thread anymore. Otherwise, turn the other cheek and get out of here. (see, that was mockery). And if you feel the need to flex your big "mod muscles" (like so many of you have been lately) and ban me or close this thread, well, then that will just mean that I won this argument, I guess.

[Echonova]

See, the great thing about it is, I don't have to prove shit to you. You interpreted it as sarcasm. Well, that's not my fault, man. That would be your own cynical outlook that caused that. Take this to PM's so you don't clutter up my thread anymore. Otherwise, turn the other cheek and get out of here. (see, that was mockery). And if you feel the need to flex your big "mod muscles" (like so many of you have been lately) and ban me or close this thread, well, then that will just mean that I won this argument, I guess.

As I don't have "shit to prove to you" either. How have I used my "God" (or Mod) powers in any way during this debate? My intention is not to shut-down your argument, but merely defend it with the same criteria that you demand of proof. I have no personal beef with you, or your beliefs and I apologize if you took any of it that way.

Just merely trying to illustrate the absurd by being absurd.

Personally, I think it's great you are on a quest for higher learning. I hope you follow in the same vein as C.S. Lewis and others that set out to looking for proof, or for lack of a better term to "disprove" God. If you don't know C.S.Lewis was raised in Christianity and he later described his young self as being paradoxically "very angry with God for not existing"... J.R.R. Tolkien and others were instrumental in his return to faith. I doubt that journey was easy or without disagreement.

Not sure where me locking this thread and you winning comes into play... Perhaps you think I'm upset at your view?

Quite the contrary.

As Thomas Jefferson once wrote... "Question with boldness even the existence of a god; because if there be one he must approve of the homage of reason more than that of blindfolded fear."

I would you rather disbelieve in God rather than follow from some blind faith. God has proven his existence to me, however none of which could be proved by the guidelines you set forth during the initial post. I don't think anyone can "prove" God given the limitations of your opening statement.

But I do wish you only the best in your journey.

[Nerdsrock22]

If I believed that why would I spend one nanosecond of any of the insignificant time that my tiny speck of existence allows on arguing anything on the internet. I would spend my time wisely by raping and pillaging anything and everything I could, because... What's the point of going to some mundane job everyday and obeying some "laws" another human being tried to place on me as a form of "control"? All there is to this world is what I can see and touch.

This. I seriously don't understand why atheists bother fitting into society. If there is no Greater morality, then why even bother?

[msanch24]

This. I seriously don't understand why atheists bother fitting into society. If there is no Greater morality, then why even bother?

Makes for some troublesome thoughts for sure.

But let me try to offer my POV anyway.

I look for the little things, you know? Those tiny little things in life that generate such a large emotional response. I've talked about music before. My guitars are my best friends. I had any instance one time where music literally saved my life. Since then, I try my damnedest to pay my respects by making the best music i possibly can. You could almost call it my religion.

But that's quite a big thing isn't it? In those big things, are all the little things that make life worth living to the best of your ability. It is only by fitting into society that I can perpetuate my participation in these things. If I went around raping and pillaging, well, sooner or later I'd be caught and thrown in jail or sentenced to death. That would be the end of my music, the end of everything that makes me love life (cars, nature, friends).

I'm finding it hard to put the right words down, but I hope i offer some decent points.

[Nerdsrock22]

Makes for some troublesome thoughts for sure.

But let me try to offer my POV anyway.

I look for the little things, you know? Those tiny little things in life that generate such a large emotional response. I've talked about music before. My guitars are my best friends. I had any instance one time where music literally saved my life. Since then, I try my damnedest to pay my respects by making the best music i possibly can. You could almost call it my religion.

But that's quite a big thing isn't it? In those big things, are all the little things that make life worth living to the best of your ability. It is only by fitting into society that I can perpetuate my participation in these things. If I went around raping and pillaging, well, sooner or later I'd be caught and thrown in jail or sentenced to death. That would be the end of my music, the end of everything that makes me love life (cars, nature, friends). It had to be ingrained into our being with purpose.

I'm finding it hard to put the right words down, but I hope i offer some decent points.

No, that makes perfect sense. And I'm definitely on the same page as you with music (and cars, nature, and friends) for that matter. But it's in those things and through those things that I worship God. I think I made this point earlier, but I can't imagine that any of those things (or at least appreciation of them) would exist without intentionally being created.

Art (be it music, photography, or car modification) is to me, one of the greatest indications of a higher power. It has no use in the natural "animal" world, and thus, has had no reason to evolve and become an integral part of humanity's existence.

[msanch24]

Art (be it music, photography, or car modification) is to me, one of the greatest indications of a higher power. It has no use in the natural "animal" world, and thus, has had no reason to evolve and become an integrate part of humanity's existence.

Now this I understand...Very well made point. I'll have to mill this one over...

[bu villain]

I can't imagine that any of those things (or at least appreciation of them) would exist without intentionally being created.

Reality doesn't require you to be able to imagine it.

Art (be it music, photography, or car modification) is to me, one of the greatest indications of a higher power. It has no use in the natural "animal" world, and thus, has had no reason to evolve and become an integral part of humanity's existence.

Skills and asthetics are clearly useful in the "natural animal world" (strange term). Also you shouldn't assume nature is some perfect process where nothing unnecessary happens, evolution is perfectly efficient, etc. Something you may or may not find interesting:

http://news.nationalgeographic.com/n...5biomusic.html

As someone who considers themself an ethical atheist. I would be glad to answer any of your questions regarding why I don't go around murdering and stealing from everyone I meet.

[Nerdsrock22]

Reality doesn't require you to be able to imagine it.

I don't admit that it isn't speculative, else I would have worded it in a different way. I'll be the first to admit that I don't have everything figured out. I still ask myself these questions all the time and struggle with the tough issues. Any Christian who doesn't hasn't thought about. That being said, speculation is prevalent in both science and faith. Unless you somehow obtained omniscience, you are going to have to fill in the holes at some point.

Skills and asthetics are clearly useful in the "natural animal world" (strange term). Also you shouldn't assume nature is some perfect process where nothing unnecessary happens, evolution is perfectly efficient, etc. Something you may or may not find interesting:

http://news.nationalgeographic.com/n...5biomusic.html

Interesting article. I have no doubt that animals can make pretty sounding noises. Call it music if you want, but it's not art anymore than a flower's petals are a work of it's own design. Until I see a whale create a song that communicates complex abstract ideas through that medium, I stand unconvinced.

As someone who considers themself an ethical atheist. I would be glad to answer any of your questions regarding why I don't go around murdering and stealing from everyone I meet.

I'll retract that statement.

[bu villain]

Unless you somehow obtained omniscience, you are going to have to fill in the holes at some point.

While I agree it is worthwile to seek those answers, I don't feel there is anything wrong with not knowing the answer to many of those big mysteries.

Interesting article. I have no doubt that animals can make pretty sounding noises. Call it music if you want, but it's not art anymore than a flower's petals are a work of it's own design. Until I see a whale create a song that communicates complex abstract ideas through that medium, I stand unconvinced.

It sounds like we just disagree with the definition of music. Someone can play Mary had a little lamb on their phone (which is music), but I don't see what complex abstract idea that is trying to get across. The main idea of the article is that some animals make sounds which match the patterns of human music that don't seem to serve any utilitarian purpose.

[Echonova]

As someone who considers themself an ethical atheist. I would be glad to answer any of your questions regarding why I don't go around murdering and stealing from everyone I meet.

I'll bite.


Why not?

[bu villain]

I'll bite.


Why not?

Just a few

1. I don't want to go to jail
2. I don't want someone's family or friends coming after me
3. If I act this way, others may be more likely to also act this way which could in turn cause me pain later
4. If I attack someone, they may be able to defend themselves and hurt me
5. My job has a better hourly rate than robbing random people
6. Blood is messy

[RL...]

No, that makes perfect sense. And I'm definitely on the same page as you with music (and cars, nature, and friends) for that matter. But it's in those things and through those things that I worship God. I think I made this point earlier, but I can't imagine that any of those things (or at least appreciation of them) would exist without intentionally being created.

Art (be it music, photography, or car modification) is to me, one of the greatest indications of a higher power. It has no use in the natural "animal" world, and thus, has had no reason to evolve and become an integral part of humanity's existence.

People listen to music for things like entertainment and relaxing which, I mean come on what animals don't like to relax? People take pictures because for entertainment and for jobs to earn money to buy food and to keep ourselves sheltered which is natural instinct. People mod cars because we are reckless animals that like doing stupid shit and getting adrenaline rushes and also because a nice car is a status symbol which can help us get girls to reproduce with, all very basic instincts. See, all natural stuff here. =D

[quickdodge®]

but I can't imagine that any of those things (or at least appreciation of them) would exist without intentionally being created.

But you can imagine an unseen spirit just saying "let it be" and it is?

I'm not attacking you as I see both sides of the debate. Hard to imagine an explosion creating this, but it's also hard to think that something/someone that can never be proven to exist just said "let it be."

To me, it's completely fascinating. Later, QD.

[Nerdsrock22]

But you can imagine an unseen spirit just saying "let it be" and it is?

I'm not attacking you as I see both sides of the debate. Hard to imagine an explosion creating this, but it's also hard to think that something/someone that can never be proven to exist just said "let it be."

To me, it's completely fascinating. Later, QD.

Great point. I won't pretend to say that I came to my beliefs through a scientific and reasoned march through logistic deduction. But frankly, I don't think I have to. When I examine what I see in the world, and how it interacts with itself, and what makes people truly happy, Christianity makes the most sense to me. Self-sacrifice, humility, peace, respect, kindness, justice and forgiveness are what I need, and in my belief, what the world needs. If at the end of it, it's all a sham, I can stand tall (or lay dead) knowing that I lived a good life that wasn't in vain.

But don't peg me as some kind of anti-science fundamentalist. I see God and science as perfect partners, and scientific discovery can find itself threaded with theology, and vice versa. Quantum mechanics, evolutionary theory, relative theory are all perfect compliments to Christianity in my opinion. If science discovers something radical and seemingly contradictory with my idea of God, that doesn't mean God is somehow discounted or "proved" wrong, only that our idea of God, what we "created" him as was incorrect.