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Thread: Obama ...........delusional? or just outright deceitful

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    My talking points sound like they come from Obama but I havent even listened to him as of late, all of my talking points come from my own research because I realize even Obama will put a tint on things to make his plan seem perfect, just like a lot of you are quoting opinions and half truths.

    The further north you go in Canada yes the longer the time you wait due to health professionals and facilities being less accessible in those provinces but in the well populated areas you are getting prompt attention to your medical needs.

    Honestly I was against Obama pushing this plan without bipartisan support but it seems the opposition to this barely oppose the plan for its content and rather for political reasons. I'm sure if Mitt Romney or McCain was proposing this it would be golden, and for that I hope Obama pushes through a universal plan without any care for Bipartisan support or even "blue dog democrats." He will.. its the way Republicans would have pushed their agenda anyway.

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    I really could give a shit why the republicans are blocking it im just glad they are. I think there is nothing in this plan that they want to support.

    And what they said is right. Obama has a huge majority, in reality they dont need republican support at all. What the republicans said was IF WE STOP HIM HERE, IT WILL BE A TURNING POINT.

    What is wrong with that? Obama has been spending out of control on issues he cant possibly fathom or have a grasp on. The republicans have been powerless to stop him. But now, this issue, healthcare, is really resonating with people. And its the DEMS that are blocking it not the republicans. The blue dogs are the ones blocking the legislation right now.

    And Mccains plan was nowhere near this socialistic
    McCain's main pillar is the elimination of a tax break that employees receive if their employer provides their health care. That may not sound like a shocker, but it is. The exclusion dates from World War II, when the federal government imposed controls on wages, but allowed companies to compete for workers by offering tax-free health benefits in lieu of pay. The law is largely responsible for the nightmarish patchwork of corporate-provided medical plans we enjoy so much today. Employees and their unions demanded richer and richer packages, and employers complied, since they could buy far more benefits for their employees than workers could buy with after-tax dollars on their own. Americans have paid a steep price, however, by sacrificing their raises as corporate insurance bills exploded, never more so than now.

    McCain suggests that we junk all that. Say you're earning $100,000 a year and your company provides about $9,000 toward your $12,000 family premium, which is about average. Today you're taxed only on the $100,000. Under McCain's plan, you'd also pay on the $9,000. That could mean an extra $3,000 or so in federal taxes alone. To compensate for the extra levy, McCain would provide a $2,500 federal tax rebate for individuals and $5,000 per family, meaning a family would simply subtract $5,000 from its tax bill, the equivalent of a big cash payment.

    Here's where it gets interesting. Employers would no longer be able to buy more health care with $9,000 of their employees' money than the workers could buy on their own. The raison d'être for corporate health benefits would vanish. Employers have another compelling reason to pass the ball to the employee: While wages are rising around 3% ayear, their health-care costs are growing at three times that rate. "I predict that most companies would stop paying for health care in three to four years," says Robert Laszewski, a consultant who works with corporate benefits managers. Hence, an employer that pays $9,000 for your benefits would simply pack an extra $9,000 a year into your paycheck. (Why? Because in a competitive labor market, companies would have to hand over that cash to employees or risk losing them.) So you'd have $6,000 after tax, plus the $5,000 family credit, to buy insurance. That's $11,000 in new cash that employees can set aside for health care.

    So what types of policies would they buy? Employees (and their families) with corporate plans - about 150 million Americans - would probably rush toward high-deductible, low-premium insurance, and use what's left over to pay cash for routine procedures. They would couple those high-deductible policies with Health Savings Accounts, which allow families to put away up to $5,800 ayear, before taxes, for medical expenses. Those plans cost about $10,000. That's not a huge saving from the typical $12,000 corporate plan, but it's a start. More than four million Americans already have HSAs, and the McCain plan would make portable, high-deductible plans the product of choice for a new generation of healthcare consumers.

    Besides eliminating the employer exclusion, McCain's plan boasts another nice feature. It would allow consumers to choose an insurance plan that suits their stage of life. If you're young and healthy, for example, you probably want the cheapest plan you can get. If you're 45 and have four dependents, maybe you want something a bit more expensive and generous. Nine states, including New York, California, and Texas already require that as many as 50 benefits be covered, a list that ranges from in vitro fertilization to mental health services to prescription drugs. These requirements increase the cost of insurance; they're a major reason young people have dropped their coverage. Under the McCain plan, insurers in any state would be free to offer the plans with a vast variety of deductibles, co-pays and benefits. UnitedHealthcare and Blue Cross/Blue Shield plans already provide a menu of packages tailored to groups as varied as Gen Xers and retirees.

    The problem with McCain's approach - and it is a huge problem - is that McCain ventures so far toward total laissez-faire liberty that he risks leaving the poor and sick behind. Here's why. Perhaps his most drastic proposal is allowing the same insurance products to be sold across state lines. That seems to make sense, and maybe it does: Look what interstate banking has done for pricing and choice in financial services. But in health care, the upheaval would be so brutal that it scares even the most ardent free-marketer. Many states have some form of what policy wonks call "community rating." Under pure community rating, insurers must charge all customers the same premium no matter whether they're 20 or 55, or whether they have cancer or are models of good health. McCain is targeting community rating for good reason. It forces the young and healthy to pay far more than their actual cost by making them subsidize the elderly and sick. Like the mandated benefits, it's pushed millions of Americans in their 20s to drop their health insurance.

    But under the McCain plan, states with no restrictions - Pennsylvania, for example - could sell policies for 25-year-olds that cost around $1,200 a year, one-third the price in New York. Young New Yorkers would drop their plans in favor of Pennsylvania providers, forcing New York insurers to jack up premiums for people in their 50s or early 60s, who need those rich, community-rated plans that cover as many procedures as possible - but who no longer benefit from the excessive premiums paid by the youngsters. It gets worse. Anyone with cancer, diabetes, or other pre-existing conditions will see their premiums multiply too.

    To his credit, McCain does have a plan for relatively young, low-income Americans who can't afford insurance. "We would increase the tax credit according to income so that poor families could buy insurance," says Douglas Holtz-Eakin, McCain's policy director. But McCain sorely lacks a plan for people in their 50s without corporate benefits, and Americans with pre-existing conditions, who would be brutally stripped of coverage if insurance crosses state lines. "For his plan to work, McCain has to tell us how he would deal with the old and sick," says Jon Gruber, an MIT economist. "If McCain doesn't tax the healthy to pay for pre-existing conditions, as happens under community rating, he has to tax the taxpayer. That means his plan will require huge subsidies he's not talking about."

    There it is in black and white the good and bad. He still wanted the people to be able to choose their own healthcare. Im not saying his is right, but it makes more sense than Obamas
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    Quote Originally Posted by tony
    My talking points sound like they come from Obama but I havent even listened to him as of late, all of my talking points come from my own research because I realize even Obama will put a tint on things to make his plan seem perfect, just like a lot of you are quoting opinions and half truths.
    Everything Obama has said is a lie or half truth. There is nothing you have said that is not a talking point for Obama. All of which have been proven false.


    Quote Originally Posted by tony
    Honestly I was against Obama pushing this plan without bipartisan support but it seems the opposition to this barely oppose the plan for its content and rather for political reasons. I'm sure if Mitt Romney or McCain was proposing this it would be golden, and for that I hope Obama pushes through a universal plan without any care for Bipartisan support or even "blue dog democrats." He will.. its the way Republicans would have pushed their agenda anyway.
    All liberals want bipartisan support so they can deflect some of the blame from themselves when it goes to hell. Just like they did still the 787B pork bill that was so important.

    Trust me, conservatives wouldnt even consider proposing this bill. McCain might though.
    What have republicans pushed through and ignored dems? Cant say patriot Act, dems supported that. Cant use Iraq, dems supported that. Its like like you are trying to justify a bad bill by ignoring the facts and throwing around baseless accusations. Why not just read the bill and think about how it will benefit Americans as a whole. This bill hurts more people than it will help by 5:1 odds.

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    What we have here is a simple difference of ideology. You and Jimmy continually bring up the business owner, the business and the doctor. I continually bring up the people and what is right for the backbone of the U.S, the middle class. Those businesses you quote only exist because the common man allows them to, those salaries don't fall out of the sky, so if there is anyone whose needs should be addressed first it is those people.

    Tax me, I don't care.. I invest my money anyway. I'll never whine about my tax burden when there are people who struggle financially daily and need health coverage. The problem with this whole idea of Capitalism to the core is that those who have accumulated their wealth care more about retaining it rather than helping others. A Capitalistic system of which Adam Smith explained himself only thrives when those who have achieved help those who aspire to achieve. I've seen a lot of criticism but what have any of you done to give back?


    edited* Adam Smith not John

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    Obama posts on IA? lol

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    Quote Originally Posted by tony

    Tax me, I don't care.. I invest my money anyway. I'll never whine about my tax burden when there are people who struggle financially daily and need health coverage. The problem with this whole idea of Capitalism to the core is that those who have accumulated their wealth care more about retaining it rather than helping others. A Capitalistic system of which Adam Smith explained himself only thrives when those who have achieved help those who aspire to achieve. I've seen a lot of criticism but what have any of you done to give back?


    edited* Adam Smith not John

    Oh I dunno, EMPLOYING OTHERS? LOL

    I think thats the single best thing someone can do, is employ another person and pay them a decent wage.

    You guys want to villify the rich like they are some bloodsucking leech that doesnt provide anything to society.

    There are 2 types of people in life, those that pay interest, and those that collect it.

    Which one are you?

    There is nothing wrong with retaining wealth if you have earned it.
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    I have a question. How do we REALLY decide who to give the money to? I'm about to get personal to prove a point. So get ready. My brother is a crack head. Been a junkie since he was 9, yes 9 he started huffing gas. he is now 30. Been in and out of jail his whole life, robbed Dan and I at gun point, had a kid, never given him a dime, got married to another crack head, they had her kid taken away from them by the state.

    THEY GET FOOD STAMPS RIGHT NOW WITH 0 CHILDREN TO CARE FOR. EVEN WORSE, TAKEN FROM THEM FOR BEING INCAPABLE.

    WTF? Ok, so he had a very rough life. Our parents were junkies and abusive. We were in and out of foster homes most of our childhood. Somehow, I have never been a crack head, have never been in jail, never had a kid. Instead I made my own life. never dwelled on the past and have never blamed anyone. In fact, I have forgiven my parents and we now talk like nothing ever happened.

    So, the idea here is that we both came from the same set of circumstances, yet we are polar opposites. Why didn't his able bodied ass get his life together and become a productive human being? He was very handsome (runs in the family ) had all his fingers and toes and a shot at the American Dream....just like me.

    So, how do we decide who deserves the money from MY BUSINESS? Who decideds that Brandon will have to cut back after all of his years of loyalty to us so that he can feed my brother who has never contributed to anyone or anything or been loyal to one fucking person in his life?

    I hope maybe my story personifies this topic for everyone.
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    Quote Originally Posted by BanginJimmy
    The house plan does force people onto the govt option because of costs. First, there is a $2500 fine if you decide you dont want health insurance. Second, a private company is required to pay for health coverage or pay a fine equaling 8% of their payroll. Third, healthcare benefits will be taxed at the corporate income tax rate. Considering those last 2 things, a small to medium sized business is forced to drop their coverage and simply pay the 8% fine as it will be far cheaper.





    This isnt about competition, it is about using unfair business practices. Hawaii is actually a perfect example. It was designed to cover the kids without insurance, exactly like the house plan is. Instead, everyone moved to the free coverage. According to the Gov of hawaii, 85% of the kids on the plan had insurance before joining the govt one.



    Go back to my first response. And if you do decide to keep your own healthcare, you will be forced to pay for both plans instead of just your own.





    And yours are just as empty as Obama's talking points. Completely ignore details in favor of talking points and rhetoric. Read the bill. There is nothing in there that will maintain current care standards. There are provisions for an appointed board to determine what coverage levels certain people should get. There is also plenty of talk about heavily reducing a doctor's compensation to reduce costs.




    Cutting the f-22 program completely will not pay 1% of the costs of this. All I have heard so far as ways to pay for this is cutting medicare and tax the rich.



    Why is it my responsibility to buy someone else's insurance? EVERY group, including the CBO, that has looked at the house plan says it will lower quality and raise costs.
    by their standards it seems to me someone is still making money, and it won't be the doctors either. i heard about them forcing you to get insurance of you get fined. that is BS and as i stated someone has to be making a good return on their investment on this healthcare plan period.
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    Quote Originally Posted by tony
    What we have here is a simple difference of ideology. You and Jimmy continually bring up the business owner, the business and the doctor. I continually bring up the people and what is right for the backbone of the U.S, the middle class. Those businesses you quote only exist because the common man allows them to, those salaries don't fall out of the sky, so if there is anyone whose needs should be addressed first it is those people.
    So you do believe that if we cant bring the bottom to the top, we should bring the top to the bottom. Based on the current forms of govt run medical care, do you really think quality is going to even stay as good as as it is now?

    Who do you think gives people the jobs that pay them to use other businesses? About 80% of jobs in America are available through small businesses. Many of those businesses will be forced out if they have to try to pay for health coverage or get fined 8% of their payroll. At the very best, that will result in business owners cutting jobs or eliminating raises to pay for this.

    Next we can get into personal choice and a reason I would oppose this bill no matter what else was in it. This bill fines people $2500 a year if they dont want to pay for healthcare. That is simply beyond lunacy.

    Quote Originally Posted by tony
    Tax me, I don't care.. I invest my money anyway. I'll never whine about my tax burden when there are people who struggle financially daily and need health coverage. The problem with this whole idea of Capitalism to the core is that those who have accumulated their wealth care more about retaining it rather than helping others. A Capitalistic system of which Adam Smith explained himself only thrives when those who have achieved help those who aspire to achieve. I've seen a lot of criticism but what have any of you done to give back?
    You say that now, but what bout when you take home 1/3 of your yearly wages? 100k a year jobs will soon be bringing home barely above the poverty line. Then the Bush tax cuts expire and when Obama's tax hikes begin which will further deplete your earnings. Add to that, the massive inflation we will be seeing in the next couple of years. And if cap and Trade is passed into law, we will see massive rises in utility costs.


    I like you Tony, you usually debate well, but trying to advocate this plan makes it look like you will go full bore for anything that Obama proposes. This is a bad plan and anyone that looks into it knows it.

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    Quote Originally Posted by Vteckidd
    Oh I dunno, EMPLOYING OTHERS? LOL

    I think thats the single best thing someone can do, is employ another person and pay them a decent wage.

    You guys want to villify the rich like they are some bloodsucking leech that doesnt provide anything to society.

    There are 2 types of people in life, those that pay interest, and those that collect it.

    Which one are you?

    There is nothing wrong with retaining wealth if you have earned it.

    i just odn't like the 10% who have 90% of the moeny supply. thoses rich people really piss me off. but millionares are ok but i cross the line when they are worth 500 trillion.
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    Quote Originally Posted by Tracy
    I have a question. How do we REALLY decide who to give the money to? I'm about to get personal to prove a point. So get ready. My brother is a crack head. Been a junkie since he was 9, yes 9 he started huffing gas. he is now 30. Been in and out of jail his whole life, robbed Dan and I at gun point, had a kid, never given him a dime, got married to another crack head, they had her kid taken away from them by the state.

    THEY GET FOOD STAMPS RIGHT NOW WITH 0 CHILDREN TO CARE FOR. EVEN WORSE, TAKEN FROM THEM FOR BEING INCAPABLE.

    WTF? Ok, so he had a very rough life. Our parents were junkies and abusive. We were in and out of foster homes most of our childhood. Somehow, I have never been a crack head, have never been in jail, never had a kid. Instead I made my own life. never dwelled on the past and have never blamed anyone. In fact, I have forgiven my parents and we now talk like nothing ever happened.

    So, the idea here is that we both came from the same set of circumstances, yet we are polar opposites. Why didn't his able bodied ass get his life together and become a productive human being? He was very handsome (runs in the family ) had all his fingers and toes and a shot at the American Dream....just like me.

    So, how do we decide who deserves the money from MY BUSINESS? Who decideds that Brandon will have to cut back after all of his years of loyalty to us so that he can feed my brother who has never contributed to anyone or anything or been loyal to one fucking person in his life?

    I hope maybe my story personifies this topic for everyone.

    Im glad this issue is really resonating with you guys. Maybe we can hope this will get more people involved.

    While i truly do feel a sense of sadness for your brother, you are right, he made his own choices.

    BUt under Obama you are the evil "rich" that society can no longer afford to indulge. You call your own shots, and do what you want and that simply is that status quo "we cant afford any longer".

    If Obama gets his way 2 things are going to happen

    1) Hopefully this DOESNT happen, but your tax burden will be so much more that you will have to lay someone off, or close up shop completely. Many business are operating at the limit right now. making just enough to get by. Now i know i have ZERO knowledge of BGs finances, but what i mean is an extra 1000$ a month can mean the difference between paying a bill and not paying a bill. Between investing in new equipment, or not. Between taking tat business venture or not.

    If we stop small business from investing or expanding, get used to the recession.

    2) You will have to cut wages to afford your healthcare you are now mandated to carry. One thing history has taught us is that business owners and people who employ others PASS THE COST ON. If "Dans" cost goes up he will either charge more, or cut costs somewhere else which usually means wages, expenditures, investments, etc.

    That is also a surefire way NOT to grow a business.


    We want "dan" to employ more people (that he can trust HAR HAR ) not be forced to lay people off, or downsize his business.

    But Obama wouldnt know anything about that , he has never run a business
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    Quote Originally Posted by Tracy
    So, how do we decide who deserves the money from MY BUSINESS? Who decideds that Brandon will have to cut back after all of his years of loyalty to us so that he can feed my brother who has never contributed to anyone or anything or been loyal to one fucking person in his life?
    Here lies the problem for dems. There is zero accountability in any federal program right now. This is especially true in medicare and medicaid. Dems want you to simply ignore that and believe that this one will be the pinnacle of efficiency.

    http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=9k02uAU0-0I

    Funny little town hall video. This is a liberal crowd also judging by the fact that they like taxing the wealthy so much more.

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    Good points and I am with ya. I want to hear from Tony how we decide who is deserving if we, Batlground, as "RICH" people who have accumulated our "WEALTH", should help out?

    As it pertains to this quote:

    Quote Originally Posted by Tony
    The problem with this whole idea of Capitalism to the core is that those who have accumulated their wealth care more about retaining it rather than helping others.
    I ask because I am all about helping people out. I have a very soft heart for the needy. I give money every day on my ride home from school to the homeless under he bridge at the Monroe exit off 85. Every time I throw Dan's shit out, I take it to the Goodwill

    Even more than that, I would love to give Brandon way more than he gets. He totally deserves it. He has worked hard for it and he is def not rich. In order for me to give to the "less fortunate", in this respect, I will have to take from Brandon in order to stay afloat. So who is considered less fortunate and just plain stupid and lazy?

    IMO, Brandon has a good chance of becoming less fortunate if we don't think about all of the avenues.
    Last edited by Tracy; 07-24-2009 at 12:17 PM.
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    What they want to do is level the playing field. They want to make the RICH poorer instead of the POOR richer.

    That is what this is all about. Cap and Trade, Healthcare, taxes, its all Obamas plan to enslave the less fortunate through govt entitlements and to hurt the small business and evil corporations.

    "Brandon" has no healthcare now, so when Obama says to him "hey man, you want healthcare im going to give it to you!"

    "Brandon" says "FUCK YEAH! I LOVE YOU MAN!"

    Then "dan" comes to him and says "hey brandon, that $xxxx you were making per month, its going to turn into $xxx cause i now have to pay for your healthcare".

    Then what is Obama going to say to "brandon"? Hes going to say "its your evil boss, he just wants to keep all the money for himself, thats why he cut your wages, it wasnt me"

    He is systematically turning the wage EARNERs against the wage PAYERs.

    What he doesnt realize is there is no middle class without the upperclass.
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    Quote Originally Posted by Vteckidd

    Then "dan" comes to him and says "hey brandon, that $xxxx you were making per month, its going to turn into $xxx cause i now have to pay for your healthcare".
    What we would actually have to say is, "Bye, bye. I hope you enjoyed your time here and thanks for everything. We will call you when we can afford to hire you again."
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    Quote Originally Posted by Tracy
    Good points and I am with ya. I want to hear from Tony how we decide who is deserving if we, Batlground, as "RICH" people who have accumulated our "WEALTH", should help out?
    Dont hold your breath. The fundamental flaw with liberalism is that it simply doesnt not stand up to even cursory investigation. That is why liberals spend so much time attacking others when they are questioned.

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    Well just let me clear that up. I am genuinely interested in hearing all sides. I am just using my logic from my own point of view. In order to have a real discussion you have to be open to where other people are coming from.

    To me it's like critiquing my art. I always like to have a few more eyes look over it before I turn it in. Sometimes a fresh eye does wonders.
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    Quote Originally Posted by Tracy
    What we would actually have to say is, "Bye, bye. I hope you enjoyed your time here and thanks for everything. We will call you when we can afford to hire you again."
    either way its going to hurt your employees and its going to hurt employers.

    Obama likes to say this line all the time

    "wages increase at 3% per year, but healthcare costs have tripled"

    DOes he really thing increasing your BUSINESS' cost is going to drive you to raise wages? I mean its absolute crap.

    If you are paying "$1000" a month in bills and then all of the sudden your bills jump to $2000 per month, are you going to pass out raises? FUCK NO.

    History again has taught us, when a businesses cost goes up:

    1) Cost of goods rise
    2) Wages stay stagnant or decrease
    3) Layoffs occur


    he is trying to trick everone into thinking that he is going to LOWER costs of healthcare but its going to raise the cost for ANY small business employer, and its going to raise the cost for any medium to big business. YOU CANNOT LOWER HEALTHCARE COSTS BY INCREASING COVERAGE WHEN IT IS UNDERSTAFFED.

    Lets use Batlground as an example since Tracy is in here. If they charge $500 for a clutch, and have 1 tech. They pay that tech $20/hr. It takes him 5 hours. Lets say they wake up one day, and there is 1000 people outside their shop wanting the same job done. Do you think they

    A) Lower their cost
    B) Provide better care/work
    C) Ration their work (IE is it first come first serve, or is it who needs their car the fastest)

    Now lets say they come to their tech and say "hey tech, we got 1000 people lined up now, we need you to work faster, better, and we are going to drop your pay from $20/hr to 15/hr"

    No the answer is if BG had that many people waiting and they werent going anywhere else, they SHOULD, hire more techs, and within reason pay their techs more afterall the business has grown overnight.

    Now lets say the govt comes along and says "hey BG we see you are a lot busier now, we are going to have to increase your taxes from 35% to 50%. Preciate it, keep up the good work"

    Although my example is crude at best, its still a long the same lines as what is going on in washintgon

    The other thing that pisses me off is this other Obama line:

    "The last 10 years the bottom 20 Percent of earned LESS while the top 20 percent have earned more"

    Hes essentially saying that the rich get richer and the poor get poorer. What he is not telling you is that the "bottom 20 %" ARENT THE SAME PEOPLE ANYMORE! That 20 Percent from 10 years ago,they moved up, they earn MORE MONEY now then they did before. They are being replaced by people making less, but thats due in part by decline in education, job skills, and ILLEGAL IMMIGRANTS!

    In fact one study done by the Congressional Joint Economic Committee showed that those in the "bottom 20 Percent" in 1979 "more of them had reached the top income tier than had remained at the bottom" A member at the bottom of the bracket in 1979 had a much better chance at increasing his wealth and pay than remaining in that bracket.

    Did you know that the top 20% of wage earners account for 47% of all consumer spending? The top 20% spends almost HALF what the bottom 80% spend!
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    Quote Originally Posted by Tracy
    Well just let me clear that up. I am genuinely interested in hearing all sides. I am just using my logic from my own point of view. In order to have a real discussion you have to be open to where other people are coming from.

    To me it's like critiquing my art. I always like to have a few more eyes look over it before I turn it in. Sometimes a fresh eye does wonders.
    When hearing both sides hear the gist of the argument and what it is for and against. I'm not saying I'm right, not saying they are right but everyones needs are different. As business owners your situation is different than mine as an employee and a father.

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    Dont we all wish we could have our cake and eat it too?





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    Quote Originally Posted by BanginJimmy

    I like you Tony, you usually debate well, but trying to advocate this plan makes it look like you will go full bore for anything that Obama proposes. This is a bad plan and anyone that looks into it knows it.
    Understand this about me because I will admit my bias and why I think the way I do. My degree is in Sociology, my studies led me to Political Science and other subjects but the core of what I am passionate about is the Sociological aspect of every action that comes on the local, state and federal level. I'm sorry, I just don't see this plan through partisan goggles or as an advocate of capitalism, I see it as what does it bring to the people. A lot of you don't understand that zero movement on healthcare is a gap between the haves and the have nots. If you're rich that is fine but I guarantee not one person got there without the help of others, now it is time to help those others cause god knows in this economy they need it

    Tracy, as for your brother. He may be this and he may be that but as long as he is alive he is not a lost cause. So to deny him a benefit due to judgement on his past to me seems unfair. Those who are productive in society like Brandon should be commended as such but some people do require a bit more attention than others. When I struggled financially I had people help me get to where I am, I worked my way up to a point where I could return the favor to someone else and that is how it should work.

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    Quote Originally Posted by tony
    When hearing both sides hear the gist of the argument and what it is for and against. I'm not saying I'm right, not saying they are right but everyones needs are different. As business owners your situation is different than mine as an employee and a father.
    I am getting the gist. I am very open minded. I am not worried about who is right and who isn't. That is the farthest thing from my mind, so I hope you understand where I am going now.

    I am now moving on to the how. Let's say your gist is awesome. Now how do we decide who is deserving and less fortunate and who is just dumb and lazy. How we do decide what hard working Brandon who JUST lives a decent, simple life has to give and to whom? It's a whole new question that hasn't been posed.

    And, I have no health care as a "rich" business owner with no family. You want to know why? Because we can't afford it....but we will be forced to give it even though we can't afford it. Ya know what I mean?
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    Quote Originally Posted by tony
    Understand this about me because I will admit my bias and why I think the way I do. My degree is in Sociology, my studies led me to Political Science and other subjects but the core of what I am passionate about is the Sociological aspect of every action that comes on the local, state and federal level. I'm sorry, I just don't see this plan through partisan goggles or as an advocate of capitalism, I see it as what does it bring to the people. A lot of you don't understand that zero movement on healthcare is a gap between the haves and the have nots. If you're rich that is fine but I guarantee not one person got there without the help of others, now it is time to help those others cause god knows in this economy they need it

    Tracy, as for your brother. He may be this and he may be that but as long as he is alive he is not a lost cause. So to deny him a benefit due to judgement on his past to me seems unfair. Those who are productive in society like Brandon should be commended as such but some people do require a bit more attention than others. When I struggled financially I had people help me get to where I am, I worked my way up to a point where I could return the favor to someone else and that is how it should work.
    I am coming from the people's point of view. Not a studies point of view. The same type of person you are trying to protect. Where do we draw the line? I am looking for the compromise because as I already mentioned, I think we need to change. I just don't know how.

    I am not judging anyone. That would imply that I don't know anything about the situation. I gave straight facts based on a personal story for a reason and asked how we will decide? Not judge.

    Money? Is that the end all be all? If you bring in $200k or above you are rich. If you bring in below $17k you are poor? It seems like there just has to be more to it than that. That's where I am going.
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    understand that I didnt read every post in this thread but I will give my opinion. I will keep it short and simple.

    At first I was in favor of this plan because of my pre-existing medical condition and expensive medications make it impossible to get affordable health coverage. I ended up getting insurance through my job which is pretty much useless and I hope it works when it comes time to refill my medications. I figured "Hey this plan will help me! I'm all for it" But after research and reading what you have posted in your healthcare post I am changing my mind. The quality of care that I receive is great, and I dont want it to go down. I am willing to pay more to keep my doctors the way they are, see them when I want to see them and get what ever care I need without approval from Washington.
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    Quote Originally Posted by Tracy
    I am coming from the people's point of view. Not a studies point of view. The same type of person you are trying to protect. Where do we draw the line? I am not judging anyone. That would imply that I don't know anything about the situation. I gave straight facts based on a personal story for a reason and asked how we will decide? Not judge.

    Money? Is that the end all be all? If you bring in $200k or above you are rich. If you bring in below $17k you are poor? It seems like there just has to be more to it than that. That's where I am going.
    Personally I'm talking about volunteering more than money. One of the biggest issues in the black community is the lack of father figures and I stress (even I have been guilty of this since i focus more on my own son) that more black men need to step up and pick up the slack. Rather than worry about 24's worry about these kids and their grades. That is just an example of resources that should be given back, obviously the issue is bigger than just one race.

    Obviously what your brother does not need is just money thrown at him. More people need to step up and lend a hand to those in need rather than sit on the sideline and point fingers. You are always going to have those situations where the person doesn't want help or cannot be helped, but for every one of those i guarantee there are 5 that will gladly take that help and make the most of it.

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    Quote Originally Posted by tony
    Personally I'm talking about volunteering more than money. One of the biggest issues in the black community is the lack of father figures and I stress (even I have been guilty of this since i focus more on my own son) that more black men need to step up and pick up the slack. Rather than worry about 24's worry about these kids and their grades. That is just an example of resources that should be given back, obviously the issue is bigger than just one race.

    Obviously what your brother does not need is just money thrown at him. More people need to step up and lend a hand to those in need rather than sit on the sideline and point fingers. You are always going to have those situations where the person doesn't want help or cannot be helped, but for every one of those i guarantee there are 5 that will gladly take that help and make the most of it.
    I agree about all of that. I have been a big brother big sister. Used to volunteer at Capital homes when it was there. Taught art classes at Northside hospital. Brought my cars to the downtown schools and spoke to minority children and little girls to teach them they can be race car drivers. Given my brother way too many chances, too much money and so much love you wouldn't believe. Only threw in the towel once he threatened mine and Dans lives, literally. Does any of that mean that now I don't have to pay for Brandon's health care and go out of business by doing so?

    It still doesn't address health care and taxes. I thought that's what this thread was about. Not volunteer opportunities. Am I reading you right?
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    Quote Originally Posted by tony
    Understand this about me because I will admit my bias and why I think the way I do. My degree is in Sociology, my studies led me to Political Science and other subjects but the core of what I am passionate about is the Sociological aspect of every action that comes on the local, state and federal level. I'm sorry, I just don't see this plan through partisan goggles or as an advocate of capitalism, I see it as what does it bring to the people.
    There in lies the problem. You are looking at this from a purely academic viewpoint. You are looking only at the proposal and not at any of the known consequences of it. You need to take a real world look at it. If you pay more in taxes, do you have more money to spend elsewhere or less? If you try to get a doc appointment and he is full, do you simply wait, or do you find a different doc that can see you?




    Quote Originally Posted by tony
    A lot of you don't understand that zero movement on healthcare is a gap between the haves and the have nots. If you're rich that is fine but I guarantee not one person got there without the help of others, now it is time to help those others cause god knows in this economy they need it.
    So you believe that anything that closes that gap is a good thing. You dont care if that gap is closed from the bottom up, or the top down, just so long as it closes. That sounds more like envy of those with more than you than anything else.

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    Quote Originally Posted by Tracy

    It still doesn't address health care and taxes. I thought that's what this thread was about. Not volunteer opportunities. Am I reading you right?

    The sentiment is the same. I'm willing to sacrifice my own resources so you can have yours. If you make significantly less than I am willing to have my taxes raised in order for you to have a decent quality of living. My point was that the man who created the concept of Capitalism stated this himself, in order for a Capitalistic society to thrive those who have accumulated wealth must be willing to carry the burden of taxes as well.

    There are currently 37 million uninsured Americans with 24% of those who are insured have inadequate coverage. That needs to change and it cannot be done without some kind of sacrifice.

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    Quote Originally Posted by BanginJimmy
    So you believe that anything that closes that gap is a good thing. You dont care if that gap is closed from the bottom up, or the top down, just so long as it closes. That sounds more like envy of those with more than you than anything else.

    I'm looking at it in the sense of what will get things done. The Conservative side proposes tax cuts as the solution to so many problems, tax cuts do nothing, there needs to be a hands on approach to this not a trickle down effect. Trust me I don't envy those with more, I'm one of the people they would raise taxes on.. don't think that I am stating this from the outside looking in. I have been in both situations, poor and seeing my mother on medicare and social security to where I am at now where things are very comfortable for me.. I am more concerned of whether I do enough than if I have enough.

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    Originally Posted by tony
    A lot of you don't understand that zero movement on healthcare is a gap between the haves and the have nots. If you're rich that is fine but I guarantee not one person got there without the help of others, now it is time to help those others cause god knows in this economy they need it.
    I just dont see where you think you can force this society into some kind of Utopia. YOu really think you can legislate people to CARE and give back? IS that what im reading? I mean you cannot force people to do something if they dont want to.

    Furthermore, there is no RIGHT to healthcare. As i have said before and if you read my FACTS, very LITTLE in this country have no care and if they dont its because they choose NOT TO.

    Hell , Brandon can go get care, i bet he can pay the same $125 a month that i pay, he may have to cut out stuff like cable tv, 500whp 240s, etc. But if healthcare really mattered to him, he could go pay for it. I know he could. But many like him dont want it. He is a mid to late 20s healthy guy with no pre-existing conditions. He is willing to not pay for it.

    By empowering the HAVE NOTS to an entitlement and taxing the very people they work for, do you not understand you are going to force more layoffs?

    What are you going to do when unemployment reaches 20%? Blame the evil rich? You cannot sit there and tell a business owner they are wrong for making too much money, then tell them to hire more people to take us out of a recession. Thats complete idiocy. You cant tax them and increase their costs, then tell them to go hire more people.

    If you cant understand that, i dont know what to tell you.

    Again im going to re-iterate the things a capitalisitic society needs . The world needs haves and have nots. There are going to be ambitious people out there that make it, and theres some that dont. Theres going to be some people that can get ahead, there will be some that done.

    There isnt anyone in this country that cant make it if they try hard , work hard, and take risks. I started my business with $1200 over a year ago. I had rent due in 2 weeks, which was $800. So realistically i had $400 to my name. I have grown that into a business that is very successful. Ive bought a house, a car, ive re-invested into my business heavily with new products and items being developed, ive grown. I dont employ anyone else YET because i dont have that need. But its coming and coming soon.

    BG/Mainstream/Other places started with little to no money. And now they employ 2-3 people per shop. They have invested in new equipment, new staff, etc. That is the "front lines" that Obama is attacking.


    You said tony that you may not understand BGs needs as business owners because you arent one. Why should they be forced to understand your needs? It works both ways
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    I have friends that bitch day in day out that their jobs suck. That they make no money, that they are so unhappy. This was going on BEFORE the recession. I simply asked them "do something about it".

    Find another job, bullshit your way into another, change fields, go back to school, etc.

    Most of them wont do anything, they will sit there and wollow in their own self pity for years to come always living paycheck to paycheck. I have lost a lot of my friends since i started making more money. They resent me. They dont like that i have no set hours, that i do whatever i want within reason, and i report to no one. Ive lost many friends from being on my own because i have money to do stuff they dont. Or they are upset that i found my niche at this point in my life an they havent.

    I wasnt happy with my situation for many years, i did something about it and took a risk. It paid off. It could have just of easily backfired on me. Then where would i be? I Just realized at 26 years old i had to do something to afford me what i wanted in life.

    to me it was working for myself.

    For someone else, its going back to school, its going into the military, its whatever.

    But ill tell you what i dont feel sorry for those people that wont do anything to help their situations. I didnt do it to them. Why should i feel guilty? Why should they be mad at me because i have been successful or acheived some type of success? Why should i have to give back to them?
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    Quote Originally Posted by tony
    The sentiment is the same. I'm willing to sacrifice my own resources so you can have yours. If you make significantly less than I am willing to have my taxes raised in order for you to have a decent quality of living. My point was that the man who created the concept of Capitalism stated this himself, in order for a Capitalistic society to thrive those who have accumulated wealth must be willing to carry the burden of taxes as well.

    There are currently 37 million uninsured Americans with 24% of those who are insured have inadequate coverage. That needs to change and it cannot be done without some kind of sacrifice.
    So where do we draw the line? I am willing to sacrifice, too. I give as much to my staff as I can afford. That's how I give. I have kept food on Brandon's table for almost 8 years now. He has gotten paid when Dan I were eating Ramen. Of course we have to keep our operations capital at a certain point, but that doesn't go into my pocket. It goes into paying my staff when we have hard months and it goes toward floating people's bills who have work done but can't afford it at the time so it sits in my driveway for a month before they come get it...but Brandon still has to get paid even if they don't come pay their bill...that cuts into my operations capital that Obama sees as making me rich.

    I am using us and Brandon as an example because we fall under that rich threshold as it is presented right now.
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    Yeah but Tracy if you make over $280,000 a year you are RICH. You make too much, you have to give back to people that arent as fortunate as you

    Obama has never run a business so he has no idea what operating capital and such is. Just cause you have $40,000 in the bank doesnt make you baller of the year.

    I like to think that MOST business owners still around and in business know how to operate their business. They know how to run it, otherwise they wouldnt be around. If they dont pay their employees enough, then the employees can leave.

    Again, hate to use Brandon, but if for some reason Brandon didnt like working at BG, he could leave and go back to a dealership or go somewhere else. But he likes his work, people, boss, paycheck at BG so he stays.

    Obama will make him want to leave and turn him against his employer, or he will close the employer down.

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    Quote Originally Posted by Vteckidd
    I just dont see where you think you can force this society into some kind of Utopia. YOu really think you can legislate people to CARE and give back? IS that what im reading? I mean you cannot force people to do something if they dont want to.

    Furthermore, there is no RIGHT to healthcare. As i have said before and if you read my FACTS, very LITTLE in this country have no care and if they dont its because they choose NOT TO.

    Hell , Brandon can go get care, i bet he can pay the same $125 a month that i pay, he may have to cut out stuff like cable tv, 500whp 240s, etc. But if healthcare really mattered to him, he could go pay for it. I know he could. But many like him dont want it. He is a mid to late 20s healthy guy with no pre-existing conditions. He is willing to not pay for it.

    By empowering the HAVE NOTS to an entitlement and taxing the very people they work for, do you not understand you are going to force more layoffs?

    What are you going to do when unemployment reaches 20%? Blame the evil rich? You cannot sit there and tell a business owner they are wrong for making too much money, then tell them to hire more people to take us out of a recession. Thats complete idiocy. You cant tax them and increase their costs, then tell them to go hire more people.

    If you cant understand that, i dont know what to tell you.

    Again im going to re-iterate the things a capitalisitic society needs . The world needs haves and have nots. There are going to be ambitious people out there that make it, and theres some that dont. Theres going to be some people that can get ahead, there will be some that done.

    There isnt anyone in this country that cant make it if they try hard , work hard, and take risks. I started my business with $1200 over a year ago. I had rent due in 2 weeks, which was $800. So realistically i had $400 to my name. I have grown that into a business that is very successful. Ive bought a house, a car, ive re-invested into my business heavily with new products and items being developed, ive grown. I dont employ anyone else YET because i dont have that need. But its coming and coming soon.

    BG/Mainstream/Other places started with little to no money. And now they employ 2-3 people per shop. They have invested in new equipment, new staff, etc. That is the "front lines" that Obama is attacking.


    You said tony that you may not understand BGs needs as business owners because you arent one. Why should they be forced to understand your needs? It works both ways
    You act like BG's only 2-3 customers are their employees, how about those people that come there to have their car worked on? I bet BG feels the recession too because people have to tend to other expenses rather than modify their car when times are tough. The needs I'm talking about are the very people who come through that door, not just those who work behind it.

    And good for you for making it but I don't expect everyone to make it to my level, its impossible.. you actually contradicted yourself in that sense. You say in Capitalism there needs to be haves and have nots then say everyone is able to work hard and move up, if there is always going to be this gap the two cannot exist.. someone will always be at the bottom.

    What I am saying is those at the bottom need not be left out and even though they might not be the wealthiest or most productive, they are citizens of this country. Health benefits are not a right, but at one time free education wasn't either but look what happened after it became one, that is one of the reasons our economy flourished. I'm sure those who wanted to remain educated without "paying" for others' had similar arguments as yours back then.

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    Quote Originally Posted by tony
    You act like BG's only 2-3 customers are their employees, how about those people that come there to have their car worked on? I bet BG feels the recession too because people have to tend to other expenses rather than modify their car when times are tough. The needs I'm talking about are the very people who come through that door, not just those who work behind it.

    And good for you for making it but I don't expect everyone to make it to my level, its impossible.. you actually contradicted yourself in that sense. You say in Capitalism there needs to be haves and have nots then say everyone is able to work hard and move up, if there is always going to be this gap the two cannot exist.. someone will always be at the bottom.

    What I am saying is those at the bottom need not be left out and even though they might not be the wealthiest or most productive, they are citizens of this country. Health benefits are not a right, but at one time free education wasn't either but look what happened after it became one, that is one of the reasons our economy flourished. I'm sure those who wanted to remain educated without "paying" for others' had similar arguments as yours back then.

    No you just dont understand my statements.

    There will be have and have nots. Those are determined by those who work hard and those that dont. Those that take responsibility, those that always blame someone else. Those with good grades, those without. Those with connections, those with none.

    The simple fact is, there will be people that get ahead and make money, there will be people that DONT.

    I firmly believe that if you want to change your situation you can. Look at Tracy, she said she came from a household of abuse and drugs, but she did something different than her brother. WHY? Cause she CHOSE TO. She has been rewarded. Her brother, not so much.

    There will always be ones that work hard, and there will always be ones that dont want to work for it.

    The ones that dont want it bad enough, dont deserve free handouts at the expense of those that worked to get to a position they can enjoy life.

    sorry if thats cold hearted.
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    Quote Originally Posted by Tracy
    So where do we draw the line? I am willing to sacrifice, too. I give as much to my staff as I can afford. That's how I give. I have kept food on Brandon's table for almost 8 years now. He has gotten paid when Dan I were eating Ramen. Of course we have to keep our operations capital at a certain point, but that doesn't go into my pocket. It goes into paying my staff when we have hard months and it goes toward floating people's bills who have work done but can't afford it at the time so it sits in my driveway for a month before they come get it...but Brandon still has to get paid even if they don't come pay their bill...that cuts into my operations capital that Obama sees as making me rich.

    I am using us and Brandon as an example because we fall under that rich threshold as it is presented right now.
    This is where things get grey on Obama. What Obama says and what Obama does requires close scrutiny moving forward in a major plan such as this one. Personally I believe that small business a vital lifeline to this country and should be treated as such. The sacrifice small business owners make is already significant enough and a Universal plan should ease the burden of what you deal with.. keyword is SHOULD. That is where the scrutiny comes. A Universal plan should actually encourage entrepreneurship due to the fact that if someone decides to take that leap and venture on their own they will not have to worry about the cost of covering their family and/or their employees. This is just where you would have to take a close look at the plan. I suggest factcheck.org

    Now, corporations with special interest groups, lobbyists, different story.

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    Quote Originally Posted by Vteckidd

    There will always be ones that work hard, and there will always be ones that dont want to work for it.

    The ones that dont want it bad enough, dont deserve free handouts at the expense of those that worked to get to a position they can enjoy life.

    sorry if thats cold hearted.
    Then thats you, you can use your resources to maintain yourself as one of the "haves." Nothing wrong with that.

  38. #78
    IA Senior Member punkr6's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by tony
    What I am saying is those at the bottom need not be left out and even though they might not be the wealthiest or most productive, they are citizens of this country. Health benefits are not a right, but at one time free education wasn't either but look what happened after it became one, that is one of the reasons our economy flourished. I'm sure those who wanted to remain educated without "paying" for others' had similar arguments as yours back then.
    public education is a joke, and where do you draw the line ? Are we gonna pay for everyones everything and say its ok because they are less fortunate ?
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    YOu cannot possibly compare public education to public healthcare haha. I mean come on
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  40. #80
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    Quote Originally Posted by punkr6
    public education is a joke, and where do you draw the line ? Are we gonna pay for everyones everything and say its ok because their less fortunate ?
    You missed the point. Pick up a history book, mix that with some economics and you will find that free education is the one thing that pushed any of the advanced nations today forward. Are Rhode Scholars coming out of grade school? No, but at the least it creates an relatively educated society.

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