Isn't that how it is now? If you pay for it you get it? Superficially it seems like the only difference is the choice of whether or not you want to do it. You might just HAVE to.Originally Posted by tony
Isn't that how it is now? If you pay for it you get it? Superficially it seems like the only difference is the choice of whether or not you want to do it. You might just HAVE to.
Obama Line 1
"If you like your coverage you can keep it"
That is an OUTRIGHT LIE. If you think for 1 second, that you can keep your existing health coverage under his plan please read up on what is going through congress RIGHT NOW. Here is how simple economics work, SUPPLY, DEMAND. Lets keep it simple shall we:
Lets assume his plan is going to cost you $50 per month. Your CURRENT Employers insurance costs $100 per month. On top of that like he said last night, he wants to TAX YOUR EMPLOYER AKA anyone making over $280,000 a year a surcharge to pay for the extra 1/3 cost of Healthcare he doesnt have in his budget.
Think about that. WHo do you think EMPLOYS YOU? The people making $280,000+. they are the bulk of Small Business. They are getting hit the hardest right now.
So do you really think your EMPLOYER who has these 2 Options A) Pay $50 for health care or half of what you are offering now or B) keep offering twice as expensive healthcare AND add a tax to that price.
HELL NO HE IS GOING TO GO WITH THE CHEAPER OPTION. Which means your coverage WILL CHANGE. It will change to the Government option.
He has no choice BUT to ration care. The only way you cut costs in Medical care is
A) DENY TESTS/CARE
B) CUT WAGES IE DRIVE DOCTORS AND NURSES OUT
Enterprise Data Resources- Ecommerce Project Manager
-www.usedbarcode.net
And so is everyone NOT covered by the system. If you chose not to have coverage, you are fined $2500 a year. If an employer choses to stay with private insurance, he is fined for that also. Sounds to me like just another hidden tax, just like cap and trade is.
If you decide you want to change to liability only on your car, do you think your insurance company should be able to fine you $2500 a year for not having more coverage?
And like I said before, as it is not the deferred cost of uninsured is already $1,000 per family to the taxpayer.. so one way or another we are paying for everyones coverage as it is.
http://www.rasmussenreports.com/publ...th_care_reform
A nice breakdown from rassmussen. The longer this drags out, the better chance we have of avoiding this.
My favorite quote.
Its strange, I look for this $2500 fine in Obama's plan and all I find are right wing blogs that quote it. Show me in Obama's plan where it says the government will fine the uninsured $2500. Not some source, HIS PLAN. thanks. I ask because that was a proposal from Hillary Clinton and that was one of his criticisms of her plan.
you didnt look very hard. Its not really OBamas plan, but it is the democrats in several committees. But Obama has said he would sign it, so......
The numbers being thrown around are $2500 per year, or 2.5% of income. Depends on who you talk to
that was last week, lots has changed since then. I know the $2500 number came up at the end of the week/beginning of this week in another committee.House Democrats on Tuesday unveiled their proposal for a sweeping health care bill that would require all Americans to buy affordable insurance. The cost of the proposed legislation would be paid for by taxes on wealthy Americans.
The House Ways and Means Committee announced it would vote on the proposal beginning on Thursday. The panel is one of three that must act before the bill can go to the full House, probably later in the month.
The bill would impose a 5.4 percent federal surtax on couples earning more than $1 million annually and a 1.5 percent tax on couples earning between $500,000 and $1 million. Households earning more than $350,000 would get hit with a 1 percent tax.
House Democrats want to require individuals and employers to get health insurance -- or pay a penalty.
For individuals, the penalty would be 2.5 percent of income -- but it could go no higher than the average cost of health insurance.
The penalty for employers would be much higher -- 8 percent of a worker's wages -- with an exemption for small businesses. Business groups are strongly opposing an employer requirement.
Also, the Small Business exemption, thats up to debate as the committee never defined what "small business" was. As of Wednesday, that was anyone making $280,000 up=RIch, small business, who knows
Enterprise Data Resources- Ecommerce Project Manager
-www.usedbarcode.net
have you guys seen the proposed list of about 1000 new ways to tax us and some places are ebing paid to experiment with these new ideas in their community, of course they are getting paid for the trial. we are all going to get taxed to death so who cares about healthcare we won't need it if we are taxed to death.
one post bt vteckidd said they will enslave us this way and it is very true. esp with the national debt rising faster than an old man's wood in a college girls locker room.
Check out my for sale threads!! 15" competition speakerbox, 1TB External hard drive, and plenty of car parts!!!
I Need some WRX, 350Z, 240SX, Really any car owner to let me do R&D for Ground Kits, Please Let me See the layouts!!!
Ok to clear up a few things, my wife who is a teacher with a four year degree makes in the mid 40k a year. I as a paramedic (Without a fire degree) make in the mid 40s as well. The actually degree you receive as a paramedic is an assoc. in "emergency medical science" though the piece of paper they give you is not worth wiping your ass with. Most Firefighters ( with just an EMT cert) make in the mid 30k range. Fire-medics make in the mid 50k a year. In all reality we as public servants are grossly under paid, because when you put when you put in perspective RNs (Who take orders from a Dr. and work in a clean stable environment) make in the mid 60k-70k a year while Paramedics ( who work in dynamic environments and have to free think and make medical decisions based on gut instinct) only make 40-50k a year. There is a lot more information that goes into this argument but I will spare you all the details unless requested. on a separate note, part of the reason medical care is so costly is the Malpractice insurance and people skipping out on their bills, I agree that it sucks people don't have medical insurance but there are alternative ways to cut the cost of Insurance starting on putting limitations on Malpractice suits or forcing those who skip on Medical bills to pay them by placing leins on residences or filing suit against them bill skip. Dekalb Fire/rescue does this now by attaching you bill to you water bill and as we all know you cant live without water. 99% of the time a hospital/Ambulance service will work out a payment plan with the individual, so that you do not have to pay it all up front.
Try not. Do or Do not.
i agree certain professions dont make enough money. i dont agree with medical leins. my grandfather did not go get a loan for a new cancer job, and my grandmother saved all her life for a heart attack. i did hospital billings and collections and most people tried to pay something towards it but half the hospitals we worked for had payment plan guidlines and if you did not meet it you had to jump through hoops for financial assistance. my brother was lied to by st mary's in athens about a procedure and they are trying to bill him for 13k and he had to pay what insurance wasn't going to cover upfront. i even went with him to verify this info because at my job i saw it happen all the time. people don't plan to have a medical emergency and in this economy many folks have prob stopped their payment plans because eating is more important right. it turns out these hospitals get big tax breaks and even gov't reimburstment for some cases. also if insurance can pay $800 on a bill that would be 10k cash pay whats the difference anyways. trust me on this i saw where ins companies paid pennies on the dollar to what a non-insured person would pay. if you have any further questions let me know. also the ambulance is billed seperately, then the DR bills, the nthe facility bills, radiologist, cardiologist, anesthesia, etc. you wind up with 12 bills for 1 visit and that sucks too.
[/QUOTE] I don't see what the big deal is that a certain percentage of our country doesn't have health care. Survival of the fittest man. Also, this entire Democratic plan of reforming our health care system is a ploy. I mean, do any of you Obama/Democratic supporters think these politicians are sitting at home right now, tossing and turning, because they know there are some people out there without health care? Shit, if that's the case, why don't we take it a step further and just try and save the world from disease and hunger. Oh wait, they can't, because it is a impossibility. Politicians never really give a shit about the people, they care about themselves, their groups, and their own personal agendas. I thought everyone knew that politicians are some of the most corrupt, deceiving, conniving people on the planet? [/QUOTE]
trust me they are not losing sleep here. they all have top notch medical care and even things us normal folks with insurance would be denied for. and guess what we foot the bill til the day they die so they sleep happily knowing their family is covered.
Check out my for sale threads!! 15" competition speakerbox, 1TB External hard drive, and plenty of car parts!!!
I Need some WRX, 350Z, 240SX, Really any car owner to let me do R&D for Ground Kits, Please Let me See the layouts!!!
I love these threads.....Obama has done nothing for this country yet, but he keps forcing shit through because it has to be done. his socialist views ppl dont even see. they just think its cool cuz Obama is a good speaker and the first black president. nevermind he seems to be on eof the dumbest fuckers in Washington
I thinks it awesome how everyone blames our country's woes on a man who has been in office like 6 mos. That's not to say I agree with the things he has or is going to do, that is just to say OPEN YOUR FUCKING EYES. He didn't do this to us. Anyone who had been put in his position would be the butt of scrutiny from our citizens. This country is in a world of shit and I don't think ANY president would have everyone's approval given our circumstances. Everyone wants to complain about his decisions, but then when we have discussions like this, no one can answer the damn question....what would you do?
I mean I asked about 500 times in this thread how would we decide who is worthy of the benefits of free medical care and tax breaks....but no one could or did answer me. All anyone could do is refer me to what is being proposed...but I asked basically, WHAT WOULD YOU DO? HOW WOULD YOU HANDLE ALL THE MISTAKES BUSH MADE TO GET US IN THIS POSITION? Bush walked out of office and never looked back. He doesn't have to held accountable for his HUGE mistakes, but the new administration does.
Bush Jr. vowed to NEVER raise taxes because he saw what it did to his father when he raised taxes, despite his promise not to. He didn't get his second term. Lesson learned by Jr. Even the beloved Reagan raised taxes when he saw we were getting into too much debt. What did Jr. do? Started 2 wars, then LOWERED taxes. Are you fucking kidding me? We had a budget surplus when Bush Jr. came into office, but Bush decided to not not keep the policies that got us that surplus when they expired.
We already have free health care. It goes to our largest voting population, the elderly. No one wants to take it away because of politics. If they do, the old people won't vote for you. Then you don't win. NO POLITICIAN is in it to take care of our country. It is ALL politics. Black, white, purple, man, woman, catholic, muslim, jewish, agnostic. Everyone has their own agenda. SO GET FUCKING USED TO IT.
Last edited by Tracy; 07-25-2009 at 11:24 AM.
absolutely no one. There is no such thing as a free lunch. The person getting the healthcare may not pay for it, but someone else is and if anyone but the govt did it, it would be called theft of services.
Look at the group that single handedly pays for more than 75% of the govt.
First I would look at the root causes, which mostly started during the Clinton era. Ignoring repeated terrorist attacks, and the CRA being the biggest. War on Terror and the housing market collapse were got their start there. Bush's only mistake economically was ignoring all of the warnings he received prior to 2005.
WOT was something that needed to be done a decade before it happeend. The US was a constant target for attacks that were steadily escalating in their frequency, size and complexity. It wouldnt have been much longer before we saw some type of chemical or biological attack on this country. Even nuke, such as a dirty bomb, was a real possibility.
You start off saying w shouldnt blame Obama, but why not? All of his economic policies are designed to keep us in a recession, or at the very least, do not make it possible for a recovery. His plans for Iraq are simply to cut and run away. He has never given a single detail about how his plans are supposed to be run or how much they will really cost. He is simply about fear mongering to get as much faulty legislation passed as quickly as possible.
Then you say blame Bush, yet the 2 things you mention were in place before Bush was even in office. The CRA amendments that forced banks to give out bad loans were put in place by Clinton in '93. Right before the '94 takeover of both houses. And as I have stated before, Clinton's ignoring of terrorism led to the eventual attacks of 2001. If Clinton would have acted forcefully after 1 of them many attacks while he was in poffice, 2001 would not have happened.
Lastly, this brings me back to 1 final point. Out immigration policies are a joke. ANYONE can simply walk into this country with no fear of being caught. Until our borders are secured we will ALWAYS remain an easy target for an attack. The Teeth of the Tiger by Tom Clancy outlines a very simple and effective way to do this. Very low tech and nearly impossible to defend against.
slow down here, this country has been on a landslide to disaster since 1913. these problems have been going on for a long time and the last real president in my opinion was JFK. Bush Jr was an idiot and sadly he and both obamamama have thrown money at heir golfing buddies since october. remember bush last october using fear mongering to get the first round of TARP passed fast. another note obama has not been very transparent as he promised, he has also tried to push bills through in 24 hours without the public and Reps even reading it and he promised that would never happen again. wasteful spending, see 2nd bailout package.
so on to healthcare. lets borrow 10 trillion dollars to fix a corrupt and broken system and make it even more broken and corrupt. they cannot even balance the budget and read bills and pass a bunch of useless crap into law and you think they would treat our medical records differently. i dont think so. Trust me when i say only a few people will really benefit from this and it will be financially sadly enough. do the math on 6% interest on 10 trillion dollars.
Check out my for sale threads!! 15" competition speakerbox, 1TB External hard drive, and plenty of car parts!!!
I Need some WRX, 350Z, 240SX, Really any car owner to let me do R&D for Ground Kits, Please Let me See the layouts!!!
The reason is, is that there is no simple answer. You're talking about a solution that is going to solve a major problem for MILLIONS of people. Someone isn't going to be happy, whether its the lower class, middle class or upper class. So as you said, who ends up with that burden? It just depends on where you stand. Personally I feel the upper class is better equipped to lose some benefit of wealth, and as a sidebar I'd like to say that I like this idea of "Wealth Redistritbution" where those who have wealth care accounting for income they have not even gained yet as theirs. Raising taxes is not a retroactive action, they don't come into your house and confiscate your assets.
So you are a communist? You wouldnt mind if he govt set your standard of living for you? You wouldnt mind that you spend 5 years in college busting your ass to get a degree and a good job, only to have half of what you make given to a HS dropout who spends his whole day smoking weed and drinking beer?
I am all for helping people out if they actually want help, but as for people that are simply living off the system, let the little parasites starve for all I care. They are a drain on everyone's resources and offer nothing in return.
That's my brother
Dont mean to be personal Tracy, and I know it's a harsh mindset, but as long as deviant behavior is rewarded, it will continue.That's my brother
I don't see what the big deal is that a certain percentage of our country doesn't have health care. Survival of the fittest man. Also, this entire Democratic plan of reforming our health care system is a ploy. I mean, do any of you Obama/Democratic supporters think these politicians are sitting at home right now, tossing and turning, because they know there are some people out there without health care? Shit, if that's the case, why don't we take it a step further and just try and save the world from disease and hunger. Oh wait, they can't, because it is a impossibility. Politicians never really give a shit about the people, they care about themselves, their groups, and their own personal agendas. I thought everyone knew that politicians are some of the most corrupt, deceiving, conniving people on the planet?
Yay some answers. All of which lead up to that Obama didn't cause the problems. They started in 1913 according to one. How COULD it be Obama's fault after 6 months? Like I said, that doesn't mean I agree or disagree with his plans. I spent the majority of the thread giving my story and stating how it will effect us, which is basically putting us out of business.
I understand he is the figure head and that's what he gets, but the real problem, IMO, is the system, not the man himself. I think our entire gov't and system needs reform more than our health care.
Obama didn't start the problem but it's overzealous to think you can fix it in 30 days or 6 months.
That's like solving world terrorism in 30 days or world hunger or the economy.
Obama is scaring Americans into thinking that if we don't fix healthcare now the economy will collapse. Sound familiar?
If he wants to fix healthcare it needs to be through incentives or tax cuts to small business. Anything that adds cost to them right now is bad news
Enterprise Data Resources- Ecommerce Project Manager
-www.usedbarcode.net
sounds very familiar actually. are we gonna get a government rebate on our kidney transplant now. how is that going to work we can't recycle ourselves. lol.
Check out my for sale threads!! 15" competition speakerbox, 1TB External hard drive, and plenty of car parts!!!
I Need some WRX, 350Z, 240SX, Really any car owner to let me do R&D for Ground Kits, Please Let me See the layouts!!!
P.S. Maybe Tony can give him some charity since he is so willing. Maybe HIS money will help turn him around even though no one else has been able to.
Let me know, Tony. I will forward his number to you.
I said earlier that throwing money at certain issues would be a waste of time. A Universal Healthcare plan does not solve world peace, it just gives those who need the help that they require exactly that.. help. There is still personal accountability and you will always have those that get over on the system, its inevitable, but the majority of those do not. Ask a Dr. yourself, many of those on medicaid currently do not even take advantage of the benefit.
But I digress, the majority of the sentiment here is against a plan such as this one. We've discussed this issue at naseum in thread after thread with the same people saying the same thing. I'll keep doing what I do, and yes Mike if someone is in dire need I'll gladly give 10%, at the end of the day it is nothing more than currency and I am my brother's keeper.
Matter of fact my last paycheck was $1500, even though I just donated to the Salvation Army I'll take you up on that challenge Mike. I don't know what I could offer Tracy's brother but I know personally how underfunded Sickle Cell and those with it often cannot afford the treatment, I myself have a variation of Sickle Cell and carry the trait.. those in the know know why it is underfunded.. I'll leave it at that. $150 donation.
I'm done with this thread, yall do what you do I'll continue to do what I do.Thank you Robert Abrom
A donation in the amount of $150 has been made in your name.
Thank you for helping to provide vital support to the Association's
growth and development.
Donation Amount: $150
Your reference number is DON-2005000780.
Visa Card: XXXX-4751
Expiration: 11/11
The Sickle Cell Disease Association of America, Inc.
is registered with the Maryland Secretary of State and is a
501(c)(3) organization and contributions to it are
tax-deductible to the extent allowed by law.
Yeah its easy to sit there and say "im all for wealth redistribution" , lets see it actually happen.
Tony i want you to donate 10% of your paycheck every month to Tracys brother. Hows that sound?
Survival of the Fittest, he who works hardest makes the most money, its as simple as that
Enterprise Data Resources- Ecommerce Project Manager
-www.usedbarcode.net
I'd like to see that happen too.
I cannot believe people support this "redistribution of wealth" Umm, no.
Honestly, our health care system does need some work, but our economy and nation as a whole can't handle changing the health care system right now. I think a reform type plan should be initiated with a 10-20 year goal on it. What he is trying to do and push for is like trying to make a person who is 500 lbs over-weight healthy in 30 days. It is just simply impossible and takes a lot of TIME and careful planing and consideration.
Careful planning and time are 2 things Obama needs to avoid to get this through. The longer this sits in committee the better chance we have at avoiding it.
No one is arguing that our healthcare system has issues. There are reforms that need to be made, but nationalizing it is NOT the thing to do. A better idea would be to institute govt subsidized major medical plan that is initiated through private insurance companies. Something that doesnt cover regular visits of prescriptions, but does cover that horrible car accident, or that heart attack. This plan should only be available to people that are on unemployment, or can prove their employer does not offer health coverage.
what about people with permanent injuries that need help to gety a job and get insurance so they can get treatment. i went through this and it sucked and with the meds i take its hard to find a job.
Check out my for sale threads!! 15" competition speakerbox, 1TB External hard drive, and plenty of car parts!!!
I Need some WRX, 350Z, 240SX, Really any car owner to let me do R&D for Ground Kits, Please Let me See the layouts!!!
Sort of the same thing I said earlier. Some people will be losers in EVERY situation. I know its harsh, and I know its not fair to everyone, and I know how bad it sucks. There is just no other answer I can give you.
yea no matter what i tried to get a temporary type mediciad for my neck i was shut down. i just needed a little help until i could get coverage again. yet i know of people who personally ride the system for free and thier whole family has. im going to be in pain the rest of my life and im sure there will be a time i need help again until i can get hings right again. but sadly i dont fit the description to get help at all. if i were a woman i could atleast have a jid and get medicaid, lol. but i cant even do that.
Check out my for sale threads!! 15" competition speakerbox, 1TB External hard drive, and plenty of car parts!!!
I Need some WRX, 350Z, 240SX, Really any car owner to let me do R&D for Ground Kits, Please Let me See the layouts!!!
How about congress just impeach the most left winged liberal, socialist, what ever.
Oh wait they cant.. Because the majority of congress and the house is his left winged liberal brothers!!! Damn it!!!
This country is further going down a socialist path every day.. Why don't we just call this Obama's House of Pain!
Money Spender- The rate hes going hes already spent way much more than bush and prior presidents combined.... THE MOST HE CAN DO IS SPEND IT "WISELY"
How about another damn Government runned health plan!! OMG!! Thats exactly what we need... lmao
And we voted for this man.... Why?
Oh right.. More Government.. Thats right.. More freedom for the GOVERNMENT!!! WOO HOOOO!!!!!!
Ahh but Tony you just proved my point. I didn't make you donate and you chose who you wanted to donate to. Good for you
Obama wants to decide for you
I donate to charity all the time. I donated a $200 wii for the memorial for Lisa for that raffle, I give money to charitys from md to diabetes to battered women etc. But I choose where how and when to spend my money
/thread
Enterprise Data Resources- Ecommerce Project Manager
-www.usedbarcode.net
You just stole my basic response.
Instead of you choosing who to donate to, I should choose who you donate to. Apparently we are all going to be donating millions, if not billions, to an organization that in under investigation for voter fraud in about a dozen states. How do you feel about that.
I think it's sad that you can't stand your ground and continue the discussion. I am personally not angry at anyone and am not trying to be right or any of that type of thing. I don't choose parties or titles of any kind. I take things issue by issue because no one is going to make me conform to a SET of beliefs based on affiliation alone.
Tracy my leaving this thread wasn't about not wanting to engage you. I can post up 5 threads that had the exact same conversation we have here and nobody approaches the thread objectively, a month or a week later another thread starts and we are back at square one.
There is constructive arguments and then there is wasting time.. this is wasting time when I'm having the same conversation next month with the same talking points with the same people.
I don't agree, but you are entitled to your own feelings. When I am getting beat down, I stand my ground. So, maybe that's why I don't understand. I have been as objective as possible while using subjective examples to prove a point (I know you may or may not be referring to me). You weren't able to or chose to not respond to a lot of where I was coming from. Instead you chose to get mad at Mike and Jimmy.
Maybe my critical thinking class has taught me more than I thought. I can spot a consistent, contradictory or contrary argument a mile away and have been studying up on how to combat all 3.
I just feel like you avoided most of MY questions and I rarely engage in the political arguments.
I just don't have this undying need to be right in the minds of others.. I pick and choose my battles rather than defend my point to every person that opposes it.
From a critical thinking standpoint we're speaking on hypotheticals because nobody really knows the outcome and result of a Universal Plan. You asked who decides who is offered a benefit and who is not, I stated that there will always be those who take advantage of the system but you cannot allow that to limit the benefit because the people who need is greater than those who are looking to get over.
There is no simple answer to problem. This is not just If A then B, if that was the case this would have been solved years ago. What I offer here is the opposing view, I was initially against a Universal Plan but after some research and seeing examples my mind changed. If you want to engage me on this and be objective I'll answer you without distraction.
I am for a universal plan also, as I stated. Just not this one.
A lot of people feel the plan does not go far enough, I opt more for a single payer plan and there is a lot of transparency in what Obama is proposing but it is a start.
Posting Permissions
Reply With Quote
