Obama ...........delusional? or just outright deceitful

[Tracy]

This is where things get grey on Obama. What Obama says and what Obama does requires close scrutiny moving forward in a major plan such as this one. Personally I believe that small business a vital lifeline to this country and should be treated as such. The sacrifice small business owners make is already significant enough and a Universal plan should ease the burden of what you deal with.. keyword is SHOULD. That is where the scrutiny comes. A Universal plan should actually encourage entrepreneurship due to the fact that if someone decides to take that leap and venture on their own they will not have to worry about the cost of covering their family and/or their employees. This is just where you would have to take a close look at the plan. I suggest factcheck.org

Now, corporations with special interest groups, lobbyists, different story.

And this is exactly where I was going. It will require very close discretion and scrutiny. I wanted the point to be made that Dan and I aren't rich, but we fall under that category with our small business. I am for change, but not without close consideration to all aspects and I want to know where the line is to be drawn? Money the end all be all? or do we consider anything like what I presented in my brothers circumstances?

I don't care to look at the website for discussion purposes. I am discussing HERE for debate purposes. I am asking YOU what YOU think. YOU are voter, aren't you? We ALL make the decision and your personal opinion should count if the system works right. So ultimately, it matter how you feel all of this should be worked out. I am not asking for facts. I am asking for your opinion on the solution. Maybe it has been proposed, maybe not. So I don't feel the need to go to the site.

[tony]

YOu cannot possibly compare public education to public healthcare haha. I mean come on

If you cannot channel the idea of Public Education and Universal healthcare and the similarities its because you choose not to.

[Vteckidd]

If you cannot channel the idea of Public Education and Universal healthcare and the similarities its because you choose not to.

Public education takes people that can be trained for 1/1000th cost of what the healthcare professional make.

Its not even in the same arena!

How can you compare an Elementary School with Grady Hospital?????

How can you compare a $42,000 year teacher like my mom, to a $750,000 a year Heart Surgeon?

I didnt know there was malpractice suits in Public Education these days......

[tony]

And this is exactly where I was going. It will require very close discretion and scrutiny. I wanted the point to be made that Dan and I aren't rich, but we fall under that category with our small business.I am for change, but not without close consideration to all aspects.

I don't care to look at the website for discussion purposes. I am discussing HERE for debate purposes. I am asking YOU what YOU think. YOU are voter, aren't you? We ALL make the decision and your personal opinion should count if the system works right. So ultimately, it matter how you feel all of this should be worked out. I am not asking for facts. I am asking for your opinion on the solution. Maybe it has been proposed, maybe not. So I don't feel the need to go to the site.

Heres the thing, Government without scrutiny is dangerous in itself. I tell this to my friends who are liberal, government programs are all well and good but if the people are not educated then there is no balance. This is why I get annoyed when political debates get less ratings than American Idol. Or threads like these get very little attention other than one liners from people who just don't like (or do like) this plan.

Along with a universal plan needs to come initiatives on healthy lifestyles.. and I don't mean from the government. There has to be personal accountability as well from individuals, how that happens I do not know but it can be done.

[punkr6]

Does anybody out there have any memory of the reason given for the establishment of the DEPARTMENT OF ENERGY during the Carter Administration?

Anybody?
Anything?
No?
Didn't think so!
Bottom line... we've spent several hundred billion dollars in support of an agency...

The reason for which not one person who reads this can remember.

Ready???????

It was very simple...

And at the time everybody thought it very appropriate...



The 'Department of Energy' was instituted on

8- 04-1977

TO LESSEN OUR DEPENDENCE ON FOREIGN OIL.


Hey, pretty efficient, huh?????


AND NOW ITS 2009, 32 YEARS LATER

AND THE BUDGET FOR THIS NECESSARY DEPARTMENT IS AT $24.2 BILLION A YEAR

IT HAS

16,000 FEDERAL EMPLOYEES

AND APPROXIMATELY

100,000 CONTRACT EMPLOYEES

AND LOOK AT THE JOB IT HAS DONE!

THIS IS WHERE YOU SLAP YOUR FOREHEAD AND SAY

'WHAT WAS I THINKING?'

Ah, yes, good ole bureaucracy...


And NOW we are going to turn the Banking System, health care, & the auto industry over to them?

God Help Us!!!

[Tracy]

Did you know that if you are 40 or younger right now, chances are you will make it to 100? That is a fact (I do PR for a doctor who wrote a book on it). Marinate on that for a minute as it pertains to health care. Do we really want EVERYONE living until they are 100? Most centenarians haven't prepared their money or their bodies to live that long and they are living in squaller or in nursing homes because of it. People live this long because of our advanced health care. I can't be for sure if God or Allah or George made our bodies and mind to make it that far. Are we fucking up that plan?

Whoa. I went there

[Vteckidd]

Along with a universal plan needs to come initiatives on healthy lifestyles.. and I don't mean from the government. There has to be personal accountability as well from individuals, how that happens I do not know but it can be done.

Im totally against that. Im for free choice. If i want to go have a god damn triple whopper with cheese with a side of Bacon and fried chicken, let me do it. If i want to smoke a pack of marlboro reds and die of cancer, let me do it in peace.

You have no right to tell me how to live my life as long as i dont infringe upon your rights.

Do you smoke? You prob dont. Why not? Because its VERY BAD FOR YOU. But people still do it right? Cause they choose to. There isnt a soul in america right now that believes cigs are good for them or that they arent bad. Everyone knows its bad. But people still do it.

Everyone knows that Mceedees is BAD for you, but people still eat there. Why? Choice! If i want to lose 20 lbs i dont go scarf down cheeseburgers at mcdonalds.

You cant legislate a healthy lifestyle. And yeah health care for SMOKERS costs more than NON SMOKERS. My insurance went up $50 per month because i smoke. Go figure.

[Vteckidd]

Did you know that if you are 40 or younger right now, chances are you will make it to 100? That is a fact (I do PR for a doctor who wrote a book on it). Marinate on that for a minute as it pertains to health care. Do we really want EVERYONE living until they are 100? Most centenarians haven't prepared their money or their bodies to live that long and they are living in squaller or in nursing homes because of it. People live this long because of our advanced health care. I can't be for sure if God or Allah or George made our bodies and mind to make it that far. Are we fucking up that plan?

Whoa. I went there

Of course the longer we live, the more and more healthcare costs go up. Its a catch 22

[tony]

Does anybody out there have any memory of the reason given for the establishment of the DEPARTMENT OF ENERGY during the Carter Administration?

Anybody?
Anything?
No?
Didn't think so!
Bottom line... we've spent several hundred billion dollars in support of an agency...

The reason for which not one person who reads this can remember.

Ready???????

It was very simple...

And at the time everybody thought it very appropriate...



The 'Department of Energy' was instituted on

8- 04-1977

TO LESSEN OUR DEPENDENCE ON FOREIGN OIL.


Hey, pretty efficient, huh?????


AND NOW ITS 2009, 32 YEARS LATER

AND THE BUDGET FOR THIS NECESSARY DEPARTMENT IS AT $24.2 BILLION A YEAR

IT HAS

16,000 FEDERAL EMPLOYEES

AND APPROXIMATELY

100,000 CONTRACT EMPLOYEES

AND LOOK AT THE JOB IT HAS DONE!

THIS IS WHERE YOU SLAP YOUR FOREHEAD AND SAY

'WHAT WAS I THINKING?'

Ah, yes, good ole bureaucracy...


And NOW we are going to turn the Banking System, health care, & the auto industry over to them?

God Help Us!!!

If you havent noticed nobody is copying and pasting propaganda posts in here. http://answers.yahoo.com/question/in...4115947AAXR8pW

Like I said go read a book.

[tony]

Im totally against that. Im for free choice. If i want to go have a god damn triple whopper with cheese with a side of Bacon and fried chicken, let me do it. If i want to smoke a pack of marlboro reds and die of cancer, let me do it in peace.

You have no right to tell me how to live my life as long as i dont infringe upon your rights.

Do you smoke? You prob dont. Why not? Because its VERY BAD FOR YOU. But people still do it right? Cause they choose to. There isnt a soul in america right now that believes cigs are good for them or that they arent bad. Everyone knows its bad. But people still do it.

Everyone knows that Mceedees is BAD for you, but people still eat there. Why? Choice! If i want to lose 20 lbs i dont go scarf down cheeseburgers at mcdonalds.

You cant legislate a healthy lifestyle. And yeah health care for SMOKERS costs more than NON SMOKERS. My insurance went up $50 per month because i smoke. Go figure.

I guess you missed the part where I said "not from the government" and "personal accountability."

[Tracy]

Of course the longer we live, the more and more healthcare costs go up. Its a catch 22

Did you know that medicare and medicaid take up 20% of our budget already? Did you know that the baby boomers will all start to retire in 2012. Our largest population of people will have access to all of the gov't benefits that already take up 20% of our nat'l budget really soon. We already borrow ALL of our social security from China and they will be entitled to that at the same time.

[Vteckidd]

Did you know that medicare and medicaid take up 20% of our budget already? Did you know that the baby boomers will all start to retire in 2012. Our largest population of people will have access to all of the gov't benefits that already take up 20% of our nat'l budget really soon. We already borrow ALL of our social security from China and they will be entitled to that at the same time.

thats the problem we are facing right now, and oh btw lets add 47 million more people to the system at the same time

[Tracy]

thats the problem we are facing right now, and oh btw lets add 47 million more people to the system at the same time

Also consider that this year the American prison system will free more prisoners in one year than it ever has (for not other reason than their sentences are just up and they have done their time) and over (I think it was ) 80% are mentally disabled?

[Tracy]

thats the problem we are facing right now, and oh btw lets add 47 million more people to the system at the same time

Oh and that is when they BEGIN to retire. It will take 10 years for the entire generation to reach retiring age.

[trini_gsr]

i spent a good part of the afternoon reading this thread. really good arguments on both sides.

i'm with Mike and Tracy though. at the end of the day, it isn't the government's responsibility to take care of ppl. i have nothing against gov't HELPING ppl help themselves. i mean, whatever happened to personal accountability? where are we going to draw the line?

[tony]

There is this misnomer that healthcare will be free for everyone under this plan when that is not true. People like myself will still pay premiums but not like $300 a month type premiums, and it is tiered so lower incomes have more affordable coverage but everyone covered is paying into the system somehow.

[tony]

And like I said before, as it is not the deferred cost of uninsured is already $1,000 per family to the taxpayer.. so one way or another we are paying for everyones coverage as it is.

[Tracy]

There is this misnomer that healthcare will be free for everyone under this plan when that is not true. People like myself will still pay premiums but not like $300 a month type premiums, and it is tiered so lower incomes have more affordable coverage but everyone covered is paying into the system somehow.

Isn't that how it is now? If you pay for it you get it? Superficially it seems like the only difference is the choice of whether or not you want to do it. You might just HAVE to.

[Vteckidd]

There is this misnomer that healthcare will be free for everyone under this plan when that is not true. People like myself will still pay premiums but not like $300 a month type premiums, and it is tiered so lower incomes have more affordable coverage but everyone covered is paying into the system somehow.

Obama Line 1
"If you like your coverage you can keep it"

That is an OUTRIGHT LIE. If you think for 1 second, that you can keep your existing health coverage under his plan please read up on what is going through congress RIGHT NOW. Here is how simple economics work, SUPPLY, DEMAND. Lets keep it simple shall we:

Lets assume his plan is going to cost you $50 per month. Your CURRENT Employers insurance costs $100 per month. On top of that like he said last night, he wants to TAX YOUR EMPLOYER AKA anyone making over $280,000 a year a surcharge to pay for the extra 1/3 cost of Healthcare he doesnt have in his budget.

Think about that. WHo do you think EMPLOYS YOU? The people making $280,000+. they are the bulk of Small Business. They are getting hit the hardest right now.

So do you really think your EMPLOYER who has these 2 Options A) Pay $50 for health care or half of what you are offering now or B) keep offering twice as expensive healthcare AND add a tax to that price.

HELL NO HE IS GOING TO GO WITH THE CHEAPER OPTION. Which means your coverage WILL CHANGE. It will change to the Government option.

He has no choice BUT to ration care. The only way you cut costs in Medical care is
A) DENY TESTS/CARE
B) CUT WAGES IE DRIVE DOCTORS AND NURSES OUT

[BanginJimmy]

You act like BG's only 2-3 customers are their employees, how about those people that come there to have their car worked on? I bet BG feels the recession too because people have to tend to other expenses rather than modify their car when times are tough. The needs I'm talking about are the very people who come through that door, not just those who work behind it.

You are only looking at half the equation. Look at the other half of it. Before those people can come into BG they need money from their employer. The healthcare fines and taxes alone will cause ALL employers to cut their employees. Some small employers like BG may have to cut 1 employee to make ends meet. Some employers, like Lockheed, will have to cut several thousand to achieve the same level of cuts.

[BanginJimmy]

There is this misnomer that healthcare will be free for everyone under this plan when that is not true. People like myself will still pay premiums but not like $300 a month type premiums, and it is tiered so lower incomes have more affordable coverage but everyone covered is paying into the system somehow.

And so is everyone NOT covered by the system. If you chose not to have coverage, you are fined $2500 a year. If an employer choses to stay with private insurance, he is fined for that also. Sounds to me like just another hidden tax, just like cap and trade is.

If you decide you want to change to liability only on your car, do you think your insurance company should be able to fine you $2500 a year for not having more coverage?

[BanginJimmy]

http://www.rasmussenreports.com/publ...th_care_reform


A nice breakdown from rassmussen. The longer this drags out, the better chance we have of avoiding this.

My favorite quote.

Americans, by a two-to-one margin, believe that no matter how bad things are, Congress can always make it worse.

[tony]

Its strange, I look for this $2500 fine in Obama's plan and all I find are right wing blogs that quote it. Show me in Obama's plan where it says the government will fine the uninsured $2500. Not some source, HIS PLAN. thanks. I ask because that was a proposal from Hillary Clinton and that was one of his criticisms of her plan.

[Vteckidd]

Its strange, I look for this $2500 fine in Obama's plan and all I find are right wing blogs that quote it. Show me in Obama's plan where it says the government will fine the uninsured $2500. Not some source, HIS PLAN. thanks. I ask because that was a proposal from Hillary Clinton and that was one of his criticisms of her plan.

you didnt look very hard. Its not really OBamas plan, but it is the democrats in several committees. But Obama has said he would sign it, so......

The numbers being thrown around are $2500 per year, or 2.5% of income. Depends on who you talk to

House Democrats on Tuesday unveiled their proposal for a sweeping health care bill that would require all Americans to buy affordable insurance. The cost of the proposed legislation would be paid for by taxes on wealthy Americans.

The House Ways and Means Committee announced it would vote on the proposal beginning on Thursday. The panel is one of three that must act before the bill can go to the full House, probably later in the month.

The bill would impose a 5.4 percent federal surtax on couples earning more than $1 million annually and a 1.5 percent tax on couples earning between $500,000 and $1 million. Households earning more than $350,000 would get hit with a 1 percent tax.

House Democrats want to require individuals and employers to get health insurance -- or pay a penalty.

For individuals, the penalty would be 2.5 percent of income -- but it could go no higher than the average cost of health insurance.

The penalty for employers would be much higher -- 8 percent of a worker's wages -- with an exemption for small businesses. Business groups are strongly opposing an employer requirement.

that was last week, lots has changed since then. I know the $2500 number came up at the end of the week/beginning of this week in another committee.

Also, the Small Business exemption, thats up to debate as the committee never defined what "small business" was. As of Wednesday, that was anyone making $280,000 up=RIch, small business, who knows

[preferredduck]

Did you know that if you are 40 or younger right now, chances are you will make it to 100? That is a fact (I do PR for a doctor who wrote a book on it). Marinate on that for a minute as it pertains to health care. Do we really want EVERYONE living until they are 100? Most centenarians haven't prepared their money or their bodies to live that long and they are living in squaller or in nursing homes because of it. People live this long because of our advanced health care. I can't be for sure if God or Allah or George made our bodies and mind to make it that far. Are we fucking up that plan?

Whoa. I went there

well when the gov't takes over health care alot wont make it to 100 because it will somehow help with population control. you should look at some of the books written by some of obama's appointed officials clearly stating they would like to reduce the population. i'll have to find the person and the link.

[preferredduck]

Personally I'm talking about volunteering more than money. One of the biggest issues in the black community is the lack of father figures and I stress (even I have been guilty of this since i focus more on my own son) that more black men need to step up and pick up the slack. Rather than worry about 24's worry about these kids and their grades. That is just an example of resources that should be given back, obviously the issue is bigger than just one race.

Obviously what your brother does not need is just money thrown at him. More people need to step up and lend a hand to those in need rather than sit on the sideline and point fingers. You are always going to have those situations where the person doesn't want help or cannot be helped, but for every one of those i guarantee there are 5 that will gladly take that help and make the most of it.

AMEN!! don't let her brother get those 24's cuz you know they will be sold in a hearbeat. well said man. alot of people will help out one another, sometimes they just need to ask.

[preferredduck]

have you guys seen the proposed list of about 1000 new ways to tax us and some places are ebing paid to experiment with these new ideas in their community, of course they are getting paid for the trial. we are all going to get taxed to death so who cares about healthcare we won't need it if we are taxed to death.
one post bt vteckidd said they will enslave us this way and it is very true. esp with the national debt rising faster than an old man's wood in a college girls locker room.

[eraser4g63]

Ok to clear up a few things, my wife who is a teacher with a four year degree makes in the mid 40k a year. I as a paramedic (Without a fire degree) make in the mid 40s as well. The actually degree you receive as a paramedic is an assoc. in "emergency medical science" though the piece of paper they give you is not worth wiping your ass with. Most Firefighters ( with just an EMT cert) make in the mid 30k range. Fire-medics make in the mid 50k a year. In all reality we as public servants are grossly under paid, because when you put when you put in perspective RNs (Who take orders from a Dr. and work in a clean stable environment) make in the mid 60k-70k a year while Paramedics ( who work in dynamic environments and have to free think and make medical decisions based on gut instinct) only make 40-50k a year. There is a lot more information that goes into this argument but I will spare you all the details unless requested. on a separate note, part of the reason medical care is so costly is the Malpractice insurance and people skipping out on their bills, I agree that it sucks people don't have medical insurance but there are alternative ways to cut the cost of Insurance starting on putting limitations on Malpractice suits or forcing those who skip on Medical bills to pay them by placing leins on residences or filing suit against them bill skip. Dekalb Fire/rescue does this now by attaching you bill to you water bill and as we all know you cant live without water. 99% of the time a hospital/Ambulance service will work out a payment plan with the individual, so that you do not have to pay it all up front.

[btstone]

I love these threads.....Obama has done nothing for this country yet, but he keps forcing shit through because it has to be done. his socialist views ppl dont even see. they just think its cool cuz Obama is a good speaker and the first black president. nevermind he seems to be on eof the dumbest fuckers in Washington

[Tracy]

I thinks it awesome how everyone blames our country's woes on a man who has been in office like 6 mos. That's not to say I agree with the things he has or is going to do, that is just to say OPEN YOUR FUCKING EYES. He didn't do this to us. Anyone who had been put in his position would be the butt of scrutiny from our citizens. This country is in a world of shit and I don't think ANY president would have everyone's approval given our circumstances. Everyone wants to complain about his decisions, but then when we have discussions like this, no one can answer the damn question....what would you do?

I mean I asked about 500 times in this thread how would we decide who is worthy of the benefits of free medical care and tax breaks....but no one could or did answer me. All anyone could do is refer me to what is being proposed...but I asked basically, WHAT WOULD YOU DO? HOW WOULD YOU HANDLE ALL THE MISTAKES BUSH MADE TO GET US IN THIS POSITION? Bush walked out of office and never looked back. He doesn't have to held accountable for his HUGE mistakes, but the new administration does.

Bush Jr. vowed to NEVER raise taxes because he saw what it did to his father when he raised taxes, despite his promise not to. He didn't get his second term. Lesson learned by Jr. Even the beloved Reagan raised taxes when he saw we were getting into too much debt. What did Jr. do? Started 2 wars, then LOWERED taxes. Are you fucking kidding me? We had a budget surplus when Bush Jr. came into office, but Bush decided to not not keep the policies that got us that surplus when they expired.

We already have free health care. It goes to our largest voting population, the elderly. No one wants to take it away because of politics. If they do, the old people won't vote for you. Then you don't win. NO POLITICIAN is in it to take care of our country. It is ALL politics. Black, white, purple, man, woman, catholic, muslim, jewish, agnostic. Everyone has their own agenda. SO GET FUCKING USED TO IT.

[BanginJimmy]

who is worthy of the benefits of free medical care

absolutely no one. There is no such thing as a free lunch. The person getting the healthcare may not pay for it, but someone else is and if anyone but the govt did it, it would be called theft of services.

and tax breaks

Look at the group that single handedly pays for more than 75% of the govt.

WHAT WOULD YOU DO? HOW WOULD YOU HANDLE ALL THE MISTAKES BUSH MADE TO GET US IN THIS POSITION? Bush walked out of office and never looked back. He doesn't have to held accountable for his HUGE mistakes, but the new administration does.

First I would look at the root causes, which mostly started during the Clinton era. Ignoring repeated terrorist attacks, and the CRA being the biggest. War on Terror and the housing market collapse were got their start there. Bush's only mistake economically was ignoring all of the warnings he received prior to 2005.

WOT was something that needed to be done a decade before it happeend. The US was a constant target for attacks that were steadily escalating in their frequency, size and complexity. It wouldnt have been much longer before we saw some type of chemical or biological attack on this country. Even nuke, such as a dirty bomb, was a real possibility.

You start off saying w shouldnt blame Obama, but why not? All of his economic policies are designed to keep us in a recession, or at the very least, do not make it possible for a recovery. His plans for Iraq are simply to cut and run away. He has never given a single detail about how his plans are supposed to be run or how much they will really cost. He is simply about fear mongering to get as much faulty legislation passed as quickly as possible.
Then you say blame Bush, yet the 2 things you mention were in place before Bush was even in office. The CRA amendments that forced banks to give out bad loans were put in place by Clinton in '93. Right before the '94 takeover of both houses. And as I have stated before, Clinton's ignoring of terrorism led to the eventual attacks of 2001. If Clinton would have acted forcefully after 1 of them many attacks while he was in poffice, 2001 would not have happened.


Lastly, this brings me back to 1 final point. Out immigration policies are a joke. ANYONE can simply walk into this country with no fear of being caught. Until our borders are secured we will ALWAYS remain an easy target for an attack. The Teeth of the Tiger by Tom Clancy outlines a very simple and effective way to do this. Very low tech and nearly impossible to defend against.

[The Creeper]

I don't see what the big deal is that a certain percentage of our country doesn't have health care. Survival of the fittest man. Also, this entire Democratic plan of reforming our health care system is a ploy. I mean, do any of you Obama/Democratic supporters think these politicians are sitting at home right now, tossing and turning, because they know there are some people out there without health care? Shit, if that's the case, why don't we take it a step further and just try and save the world from disease and hunger. Oh wait, they can't, because it is a impossibility. Politicians never really give a shit about the people, they care about themselves, their groups, and their own personal agendas. I thought everyone knew that politicians are some of the most corrupt, deceiving, conniving people on the planet?

[preferredduck]

I thinks it awesome how everyone blames our country's woes on a man who has been in office like 6 mos. That's not to say I agree with the things he has or is going to do, that is just to say OPEN YOUR FUCKING EYES. He didn't do this to us. Anyone who had been put in his position would be the butt of scrutiny from our citizens. This country is in a world of shit and I don't think ANY president would have everyone's approval given our circumstances. Everyone wants to complain about his decisions, but then when we have discussions like this, no one can answer the damn question....what would you do?

I mean I asked about 500 times in this thread how would we decide who is worthy of the benefits of free medical care and tax breaks....but no one could or did answer me. All anyone could do is refer me to what is being proposed...but I asked basically, WHAT WOULD YOU DO? HOW WOULD YOU HANDLE ALL THE MISTAKES BUSH MADE TO GET US IN THIS POSITION? Bush walked out of office and never looked back. He doesn't have to held accountable for his HUGE mistakes, but the new administration does.

Bush Jr. vowed to NEVER raise taxes because he saw what it did to his father when he raised taxes, despite his promise not to. He didn't get his second term. Lesson learned by Jr. Even the beloved Reagan raised taxes when he saw we were getting into too much debt. What did Jr. do? Started 2 wars, then LOWERED taxes. Are you fucking kidding me? We had a budget surplus when Bush Jr. came into office, but Bush decided to not not keep the policies that got us that surplus when they expired.

We already have free health care. It goes to our largest voting population, the elderly. No one wants to take it away because of politics. If they do, the old people won't vote for you. Then you don't win. NO POLITICIAN is in it to take care of our country. It is ALL politics. Black, white, purple, man, woman, catholic, muslim, jewish, agnostic. Everyone has their own agenda. SO GET FUCKING USED TO IT.

slow down here, this country has been on a landslide to disaster since 1913. these problems have been going on for a long time and the last real president in my opinion was JFK. Bush Jr was an idiot and sadly he and both obamamama have thrown money at heir golfing buddies since october. remember bush last october using fear mongering to get the first round of TARP passed fast. another note obama has not been very transparent as he promised, he has also tried to push bills through in 24 hours without the public and Reps even reading it and he promised that would never happen again. wasteful spending, see 2nd bailout package.

so on to healthcare. lets borrow 10 trillion dollars to fix a corrupt and broken system and make it even more broken and corrupt. they cannot even balance the budget and read bills and pass a bunch of useless crap into law and you think they would treat our medical records differently. i dont think so. Trust me when i say only a few people will really benefit from this and it will be financially sadly enough. do the math on 6% interest on 10 trillion dollars.

[preferredduck]

Ok to clear up a few things, my wife who is a teacher with a four year degree makes in the mid 40k a year. I as a paramedic (Without a fire degree) make in the mid 40s as well. The actually degree you receive as a paramedic is an assoc. in "emergency medical science" though the piece of paper they give you is not worth wiping your ass with. Most Firefighters ( with just an EMT cert) make in the mid 30k range. Fire-medics make in the mid 50k a year. In all reality we as public servants are grossly under paid, because when you put when you put in perspective RNs (Who take orders from a Dr. and work in a clean stable environment) make in the mid 60k-70k a year while Paramedics ( who work in dynamic environments and have to free think and make medical decisions based on gut instinct) only make 40-50k a year. There is a lot more information that goes into this argument but I will spare you all the details unless requested. on a separate note, part of the reason medical care is so costly is the Malpractice insurance and people skipping out on their bills, I agree that it sucks people don't have medical insurance but there are alternative ways to cut the cost of Insurance starting on putting limitations on Malpractice suits or forcing those who skip on Medical bills to pay them by placing leins on residences or filing suit against them bill skip. Dekalb Fire/rescue does this now by attaching you bill to you water bill and as we all know you cant live without water. 99% of the time a hospital/Ambulance service will work out a payment plan with the individual, so that you do not have to pay it all up front.

i agree certain professions dont make enough money. i dont agree with medical leins. my grandfather did not go get a loan for a new cancer job, and my grandmother saved all her life for a heart attack. i did hospital billings and collections and most people tried to pay something towards it but half the hospitals we worked for had payment plan guidlines and if you did not meet it you had to jump through hoops for financial assistance. my brother was lied to by st mary's in athens about a procedure and they are trying to bill him for 13k and he had to pay what insurance wasn't going to cover upfront. i even went with him to verify this info because at my job i saw it happen all the time. people don't plan to have a medical emergency and in this economy many folks have prob stopped their payment plans because eating is more important right. it turns out these hospitals get big tax breaks and even gov't reimburstment for some cases. also if insurance can pay $800 on a bill that would be 10k cash pay whats the difference anyways. trust me on this i saw where ins companies paid pennies on the dollar to what a non-insured person would pay. if you have any further questions let me know. also the ambulance is billed seperately, then the DR bills, the nthe facility bills, radiologist, cardiologist, anesthesia, etc. you wind up with 12 bills for 1 visit and that sucks too.

[/QUOTE] I don't see what the big deal is that a certain percentage of our country doesn't have health care. Survival of the fittest man. Also, this entire Democratic plan of reforming our health care system is a ploy. I mean, do any of you Obama/Democratic supporters think these politicians are sitting at home right now, tossing and turning, because they know there are some people out there without health care? Shit, if that's the case, why don't we take it a step further and just try and save the world from disease and hunger. Oh wait, they can't, because it is a impossibility. Politicians never really give a shit about the people, they care about themselves, their groups, and their own personal agendas. I thought everyone knew that politicians are some of the most corrupt, deceiving, conniving people on the planet? [/QUOTE]

trust me they are not losing sleep here. they all have top notch medical care and even things us normal folks with insurance would be denied for. and guess what we foot the bill til the day they die so they sleep happily knowing their family is covered.

[tony]

I thinks it awesome how everyone blames our country's woes on a man who has been in office like 6 mos. That's not to say I agree with the things he has or is going to do, that is just to say OPEN YOUR FUCKING EYES. He didn't do this to us. Anyone who had been put in his position would be the butt of scrutiny from our citizens. This country is in a world of shit and I don't think ANY president would have everyone's approval given our circumstances. Everyone wants to complain about his decisions, but then when we have discussions like this, no one can answer the damn question....what would you do?

The reason is, is that there is no simple answer. You're talking about a solution that is going to solve a major problem for MILLIONS of people. Someone isn't going to be happy, whether its the lower class, middle class or upper class. So as you said, who ends up with that burden? It just depends on where you stand. Personally I feel the upper class is better equipped to lose some benefit of wealth, and as a sidebar I'd like to say that I like this idea of "Wealth Redistritbution" where those who have wealth care accounting for income they have not even gained yet as theirs. Raising taxes is not a retroactive action, they don't come into your house and confiscate your assets.

[Tracy]

Yay some answers. All of which lead up to that Obama didn't cause the problems. They started in 1913 according to one. How COULD it be Obama's fault after 6 months? Like I said, that doesn't mean I agree or disagree with his plans. I spent the majority of the thread giving my story and stating how it will effect us, which is basically putting us out of business.

I understand he is the figure head and that's what he gets, but the real problem, IMO, is the system, not the man himself. I think our entire gov't and system needs reform more than our health care.

[Vteckidd]

Obama didn't start the problem but it's overzealous to think you can fix it in 30 days or 6 months.

That's like solving world terrorism in 30 days or world hunger or the economy.

Obama is scaring Americans into thinking that if we don't fix healthcare now the economy will collapse. Sound familiar?

If he wants to fix healthcare it needs to be through incentives or tax cuts to small business. Anything that adds cost to them right now is bad news

[BanginJimmy]

and as a sidebar I'd like to say that I like this idea of "Wealth Redistritbution"

So you are a communist? You wouldnt mind if he govt set your standard of living for you? You wouldnt mind that you spend 5 years in college busting your ass to get a degree and a good job, only to have half of what you make given to a HS dropout who spends his whole day smoking weed and drinking beer?

I am all for helping people out if they actually want help, but as for people that are simply living off the system, let the little parasites starve for all I care. They are a drain on everyone's resources and offer nothing in return.

[Tracy]

So you are a communist? You wouldnt mind if he govt set your standard of living for you? You wouldnt mind that you spend 5 years in college busting your ass to get a degree and a good job, only to have half of what you make given to a HS dropout who spends his whole day smoking weed and drinking beer?

I am all for helping people out if they actually want help, but as for people that are simply living off the system, let the little parasites starve for all I care. They are a drain on everyone's resources and offer nothing in return.

That's my brother

[BanginJimmy]

That's my brother

Dont mean to be personal Tracy, and I know it's a harsh mindset, but as long as deviant behavior is rewarded, it will continue.