Best Boosted B-series?
What's in you guys opinion the best all around best B series to boost in Stock form. I talking on all levels. Durability, best stock internals, drag, street, drivability. I have had a B16a2 turbo and now I just got a B18c1 and I kind of thinking about boost again. Just wondering if It's a good idea. What kind of boost can a stock gsr motor handle
"I be on the that Boostanite"
Originally Posted by 1/4Mile
stock gsr wit a good tune i say around 10-12psi no more then that
But is it a better boosted engine than a B16
"I be on the that Boostanite"
you can run more then 10-12psi...lol. unless youre running a gt40r or something bigger. i ran 18psi on my stock gsr with a t3/t67 h.o. (not daily) but just to see how much boost it would hold...well, it held. i ran around 12-14psi daily on pump gas making 395whp @ 12psi. that was back in the day tho.
stock gsr or b16...both great motors. i say 300whp on either of the 2 would be a GREAT daily driver that would tear the shit out of a lot of cars that are on the road. plus it would last a LONG time with a good conservative tune!
If I had to do it all over again, I would've went with a K series motor.
If I had to pick a B series, I'd do a GSR for their amazing flowing heads/top end.
so u have a dyno for that 395whp @12psi cuz i love to see ityou can run more then 10-12psi...lol. unless youre running a gt40r or something bigger. i ran 18psi on my stock gsr with a t3/t67 h.o. (not daily) but just to see how much boost it would hold...well, it held. i ran around 12-14psi daily on pump gas making 395whp @ 12psi. that was back in the day tho.
stock gsr or b16...both great motors. i say 300whp on either of the 2 would be a GREAT daily driver that would tear the shit out of a lot of cars that are on the road. plus it would last a LONG time with a good conservative tune!
and for a daily driver if u want the motor to last a long time u cant run more then 12 or so psi
and i would go with the gsr motor there heads flow better
while i dont doubt your numbers, but RELIABLE, no way.you can run more then 10-12psi...lol. unless youre running a gt40r or something bigger. i ran 18psi on my stock gsr with a t3/t67 h.o. (not daily) but just to see how much boost it would hold...well, it held. i ran around 12-14psi daily on pump gas making 395whp @ 12psi. that was back in the day tho.
stock gsr or b16...both great motors. i say 300whp on either of the 2 would be a GREAT daily driver that would tear the shit out of a lot of cars that are on the road. plus it would last a LONG time with a good conservative tune!
The best BOOST or all around motor is the GSR, HANDS DOWN. heres why:
Thicker ringlands that can handle 300whp
Great turbo motor since its a 1.8l
Decent compression (10:1)
Great NA candidate with bolts you can make 180whp.
B16s WILL NOT LAST past 250whp. their Ringlands are WEAK an THINNER, they break an crumble under boost. Anything past 230whp on a b16 on your on borrowed time.
We have gotten 270whp out of a bone stock GSR(stickys) and it popped a headgasket. I have seen GSRs make 300+whp on HT but anyone that thinks its reliable an feasible for every day, i hve a dyno here that will totally disagree with you.
For safety an reliability, a GSR can stay between 230-280whp. anything over that an your on borrowed time.
as far as the heads go, in a turbo application, it doesnt matter considering stock vtec heads (stock cams, springs, ret, valves, ports) make 450-630whp. I have dynoes to prove it.
An a CONSERVATIVE tune would not be anywhere near 300whp. thats a VERY aggressive tune. Id also like to see the 395whp@12psi on a STOCK GSR motor, that on race gas i assume? stock intake manifold? full race kit?
detonation will destroy cast pistons, thats why i dont think its wise to keep it at that boost level
Bottom line: depending on what turbo your running (i wouldnt use anything over a T3 super 60 on a STOCK INTERNALS MOTOR) 10-12psi is the max iuf you dont want it to grenade
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thank u mike
well the stock gsr lasted longer then my built ls/vtec build did. all that was doen when i did this dyno was this:
Bone STOCK gsr bottom end(freshened up...new rings/bearings and honed slightly)
B16 head w/ GSR cams
GSR tranny
AGAIN everything internal was bonestock!
i had a cheap ass knock off venom intake manifold off egay...lol
LoveFab SST turbo manifold
t3/t67 H.O. .82 a/r (full-race)
Full 3" turbo back exhaust
AEM EMS (i tuned it)
STOCK ignition
thats really about it...
heres the dyno...PUMP GAS(93 oct in Boise ID) 12psi! its a little choppy because the line that comes off the plug wire was not reading right but here it is:
and heres the pics of the setup:
anyways, the stock engine was in my car for approx 5-6 months. NO problems at all. i had a dual stage boost controller so i did hit the button sometimes on the freeway to feel the turbo really kick in. i had it set on the lowest setting for 1st stage which was 12psi. 2nd stage was like 18-19 psi. have no idea what kind of power range that was but it was well over 450whp i would say.
but i tuned the shit out of this thing. in fact i was never really satisfied and was tuning everyday...lol. you get picky when you tune your own car. people who tune their own cars can tell you what i mean...its funny really.
you can run 300whp daily and it be reliable. like i said, i ran 395whp daily and beat the shit out of it at the track every weekend and it never gave up on me. daily driver...i drove it 120 miles a day to work and back when i was in the air force up there in idaho.thank u mike
i dont know how you wouldnt consider this reliable? it def was for me anyways.
best run on shitty small ass slicks was 11.80 @ 122 mph. thats bouncing off the redline in 4th passing thru the end...lol
oh well, everyone has their own opinion. in MY OWN opinion...that was the cheapest and funest build i have ever done...lol. and the best thing about it was that i had 2 spare backup blocks and heads just sitting in the garage...
JDM GSR FTW imo anyways...i'm gonna be pushin hella boost when i get mine and get MSp to build it for me within the next year....
You know better; next time will be a ban.
Diddo, You made awesome power and it worked for you. That's the kind of feedback I was looking for. Thanksyou can run 300whp daily and it be reliable. like i said, i ran 395whp daily and beat the shit out of it at the track every weekend and it never gave up on me. daily driver...i drove it 120 miles a day to work and back when i was in the air force up there in idaho.
i dont know how you wouldnt consider this reliable? it def was for me anyways.
best run on shitty small ass slicks was 11.80 @ 122 mph. thats bouncing off the redline in 4th passing thru the end...lol
oh well, everyone has their own opinion. in MY OWN opinion...that was the cheapest and funest build i have ever done...lol. and the best thing about it was that i had 2 spare backup blocks and heads just sitting in the garage...
Last edited by 1/4Mile; 08-13-2006 at 05:22 PM.
"I be on the that Boostanite"
no problem...i was just trying to say that 300whp is reliable. as long as you get the right tuner...
thats what im thinking homie..get that C1 tuned
300 is reliable....600 is reliable (if u have the $$ for 10+ gallons of race gas weekly
just depends on the tune and driving...
but B18C would be a better choice. bigger displacement so it'll spool the turbo faster and more torque for better daily driveability. if all things are equal more hp per boost also.
94 Supra= 500rwhp
300whp on a STOCK bottom end its not RELIABLE, sorry guys.
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I believe Mike, as a general rule of thumb. I seems you guys may have had circumstances beyond what is normal. I feel if I boost agian it will be between the 240-280hp daily driven
"I be on the that Boostanite"
i just proved that it was reliable. i was in Boise Idaho when i did that dyno. if i wouldve been here i wouldve been over 400whp. boise is a lot higher elevation then here. i know with forced induction cars theres not a DRASTIC change in power but i know i wouldve picked up at least 5whp being here. i really wish i wouldve kept the stock motor in longer and waited for it to blow because like i said earlier, it lasted WAY longer then my built block did. the reason the built block blew was because the shop that assembled it are fucking idiots!
anyways...i also said this dyno was daily driven on pump gas. when i went to the tracks i threw in 110 octane and thats all it had. and it was even a mixture. 93 and 110...half and half basically. and when i went to the track i hit the high boost button half way down the track which was 18-20psi. somewhere in there. it was over 450whp thats for sure.
MY POINT is that i dont know who it wasnt reliable. i loved that setup. easy to tune. drove it 120 miles each day(5 days a week) and beat the HELL out of it on the weekends. that thing was amazing. 300whp IN MY OPINON(along with the dyno above) should be reliable with the right tuner. i tuned my car by myself and thats the 1st time i had ever tuned a car in my life. it took approx a month to get it running the way i wanted it and then another month to get it on the dyno. 1st run it was like 382whp...next run 390whp...then last and final run was 395whp. all same boost levels. just added a little timing and leaned it out a little up top because it was running a little too rich. we srayed nitrous on the intercooler for the last run trying to get 400whp but the turbo charge pipe blew off and i said fuck it. 395whp on 12psi isnt bad for that badass turbo. i shouldve just kept that turbo...lol!
oh well...not trying to be an ass or anything...but i would run 300whp anyday with a b16 or a b18c as long as it is TUNED right. i would NOT hesitate 1 minute.
i'd run what maximum hp i would get with 93 octane..but thats me alsooh well...not trying to be an ass or anything...but i would run 300whp anyday with a b16 or a b18c as long as it is TUNED right. i would NOT hesitate 1 minute.
joe...man i wanted that GT42R
94 Supra= 500rwhp
well the 6 b16s ive had RINGLANDS blow up ive had to rebuild beg to differ than 300whp is reliable.
you were lucky, thats all, to my customers, 300whp every day is NOT RELIABLE, the stock motors arent designed to handle that , sorry
i BUILD cars for customers that dont expect to rebuild their motors every month. While it might be ok for YOU to do this, an push the limits so aggresively, its not what we do. We push the limits, but within reason.
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i am running 5 psi on a fmu and when i get my money up i'm going to mainstream for tuning, so what is a safe psi on a jdm b16, and how much hp do you think i have now and how much say on 8 psi.
B16s, cant make over 250whp SAFELY. they can make whatever people can claim. but we have had alot of b16s that are boosted that we have REBUILT because after 5-6months of 12psi they pop the ringlands.
its a well known fact, the ringlands on the B16s an ITRs are MUCH THINNER AN WEAKER than the GSR motors. they dont last
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my question was how many psi can i run and be a daily driver, and what do think about 8 psi.
psi has nothing to do with what we are talking about. i was running one of the biggest t3 turbos on the market and was running 12psi daily and 18-20 at the tracks on the weekends. if you have a small turbo then you can run a lot more boost then i did.
everybody always asks how much psi can i run?? what turbo you have and how many psi you run is what you go off of.
anyways, like i said in the begining ... its personal preference and Bee was right when he said i wasnt always running 395whp daily. only when i romp on the gas pedal is when i hit boost. lol! and to tell you all the truth i was doing that all the way to work and back EVERYDAY. i really wish i kept that t3/t67 h.o. to this day. i couldve hit 700whp with it and also ran low 10's possibly high nines...but i had to dig deeper in my pockets and now i dont even have a running car yet...haha! oh well, the engine is FINALLY being shipped to me. should have it in my hands in about a week to two weeks. BEEN WASY TOO LONG WITHOUT MY CIVIC!!! but it will all be worth it in the end!
Bee, sorry about the turbo man. that thing was gone in a flash. you wouldve had to rubuild it anyways. this time im going with a gt42...but not the dual BB. we will see how well it spools. tests have been done with full-race's new topmount design and it should spool significantly BETTER! its the divided housing topmount and you have to run 2 44mm tial wastegates with this mani. this build keeps getting more expensive everyday...
should have it running soon but back on topic...the b18c will be your better block but i have always loved the b16a heads. to me they flow better with the right cams and a good port and polish! and of course valvetrain. for a good safe reliable 300whp daily beater build a damn ls/vtec and throw some rods and pistons in that fucker with stock sleeves. go .020 over and youll be fine. but for me if im anything under 400whp...ill stick with a stock block and head. its CHEAPER if they do break. and i never even seen the day mine blew. i loved it. stock b18c block and stock b16 head with GSR cams. ran GREAT! i really wish i still had that engine. it would more then likely still be running.
im through ranting, ha! its ALL personal preference tho. if you want 250whp BOOSTED then just run a damn all motor k-series. it would be faster then the boosted b-series and WAY more reliable if thats all your looking for.
come on man. Mat keller went thru 4 motors in half of this years season before he quit clutchmasters. K series is not proven in the FI business yet in my humble opinion. Were talking about a huge money backing too.
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just my opinion... but,
if you are going to turbo your car and try make 2 or 3 times the amount of power from a stock motor, reliability will always be an issue. if you want reliability like OEM, then dont mod the engine especially turbocharging it.
like i said before, if its tuned right then i dont see any problems. we had a b16 turbo and nitrous daily driven 2 years ago and it drove fine...then a 100shot nitrous gsr hatch that ran for 2 seasons without any problems.
whatever the hp is that you make....it seems people keep thinking you will drive around with that much power ALL THE TIME... Yes, 300whp will be on tact when you Full-throttle it to redline but not everyone will be driving like that "DAILY". If you do, doesnt matter if its fully built or stock, it will go.
With the K-series.. IMO, i think its proven that it can make power. i mean over 850+whp, 10,500+rpm shifts, attending NHRA and NDRA events as well as running mid 9's or better at 160+mph consistanly......it will break a motor LOL... that was a pretty long run-on sentence.
Again its just my opinion....
94 Supra= 500rwhp
its everyone personal opinion, thats what i was trying to say. IMO my boosted stock GSR ran great and i wish i still had the setup. with more power and money invested...things are going to break. thats just part of the game.just my opinion... but,
if you are going to turbo your car and try make 2 or 3 times the amount of power from a stock motor, reliability will always be an issue. if you want reliability like OEM, then dont mod the engine especially turbocharging it.
like i said before, if its tuned right then i dont see any problems. we had a b16 turbo and nitrous daily driven 2 years ago and it drove fine...then a 100shot nitrous gsr hatch that ran for 2 seasons without any problems.
whatever the hp is that you make....it seems people keep thinking you will drive around with that much power ALL THE TIME... Yes, 300whp will be on tact when you Full-throttle it to redline but not everyone will be driving like that "DAILY". If you do, doesnt matter if its fully built or stock, it will go.
With the K-series.. IMO, i think its proven that it can make power. i mean over 850+whp, 10,500+rpm shifts, attending NHRA and NDRA events as well as running mid 9's or better at 160+mph consistanly......it will break a motor LOL... that was a pretty long run-on sentence.
Again its just my opinion....
oh well...boosted is the way to go!! lol. again personal preference. :boobies:
mike i made 262hp on 11 psi on my b16 tuned by scotty.. daily driven, beat the shit out of it.. and on some weekends, track events i run 13 psi.. and it still runs great!
i know, your the exception, the ringlands will fail, trust me, ive had enough of them come through here.
I think we are all saying the same thing, for me , as a shop, i wouldnt reccomend over 250whp on a B16, or over 270whp on a GSR.
as indivuduals, if your making more an want to push the limits of the motor, thats your call. you are the only one that has to live with your consequences if that makes sense.
Put it this way, a stock :
B16=135whp, making 250-300whp is DOUBLE that factory rating
GSR=145whp, making 270-300 is double the factory rating
thats alot of power on CAST pistons that if you detonate one time, it blows up
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well i know the original poster is asking about a stock motor but since it kind of got thread jacked ill post this.. these are COMPLETLY STOCK bottom ends.. may have headgasket or head work, but STOCK pistons and rods..
http://honda-tech.com/zerothread?id=1478127
^^ I checked out the HondaTech link & wow, there are some high WHP stock bottom ends out there, I've never heard or seen anything w/ a stock bottom end make power like that?
What's the deal, the tuners in Ga suck or are those people lying ?
is 8 psi safe.
be in this game long enough, an youll know what RELIABLE IS.
anyone can bring thier STOCK GSR or B16 motor up here, i will make 600whp out of it, 1 time, you sign my waiver.
hell ill make 450-500whp on it, 1 time, you sign the waiver.
kevin you can stand behind the car an catch the valves an rods that come flying out of the exhaust.
tuners in GA dont suck, but REALISTICALLY, those motors dont last, PERIOD.
kevin your B16 with a 50shot grenaded, blew a valve up, an it was only making 185whp. doesnt that tell you something?
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i dont think the tuners in ga suck nor are the ppl lying.. i mean there are tuners out there that like to push the limits and make a name for themselves. but they also have a lot more experience with tuning cars..
im ready for scotty to push my motor a lil bit more.. 260 gets old after a while, 350 or bust.. if i blow, just time for bigger and better.. you gotta pay to play..
but see Juan, you understand that 350whp on a stock b16 is pushing it, would you call that reliable?
youve been around long enough to know whats FEASIBLE and whats NOT.
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Mike, you say you have been in the game for awhile, then see what has been proven. Shawn(nextelbuddy) did 326 on a stock GSR, tuned by Ed, never any problems. Peter did 420 on a stock GSR, tuned by Ed, no problems.
Tuners can make a name for themselves by pushing the envelope. st00pid made over 600 on a stock H22(one-fab the scammer, but still). This car lasted alot of 1/4 mile passes.
Im not trying to talk smack, I know Scotty tunes a lot of cars(he does, not you). But tuners make a name for themselves but doing great things and pushing the envelope. If you wanna play it safe you'll never make it anywhere. I hate to say this, but i know scotty plays it very safe, all the cars i have seen him tune run rich as shit and the rears of the cars are black as hell. Im not talking shit, but if you wanna push the motor a little more, take it to Ed.
^ these are just a few cases, lots of people push stock motors, but dont act like it isnt reliable because you guys havent done it
ill totally disagree with you. I do not tune the cars myself, youre correct. However, it doesnt mean i dont know whats going on.
We have to tune them safe, an we have made LOTS of power on several cars that have pushed the envelope (spoolins, s2000, 2JZ, Daniels, etc)
Im NOT saying its not possible, but its not RELIABLE, PERIOD. if you think it is, then we can agree to disagree.
Scotty pushed the envelope all the time, i think 260whp on a b16 is a little aggressive. But thats me, ive seen 6 of them in the last 6 months that have popped an we have had to rebuild them. thats my PERSONAL experience.
As far as comparing ed to scotty, IMO, there is no comparison, ive seen JUNK that ed has tuned as well. $1300 to tune my GFs ITR that runs 12:1 an made 162whp. it was the worst graph i have ever seen. And she was ripped off blatantly. Talk about black smoke on the back of a bumper....
I dont mind Ed, he makes good power on ISPs cars an a few others i have seen. But i stand behind scotty, otherwose i wouldnt have him here tuning for us so maybe im biased. To say that ED is aggresive is ludicrous, hes aggressibve on ISPs cars, maybe, but the average joe, no way in hell, hes as conservative as they come.
we'll push your car as much as you want, but if it pops, dont blame the tuning, cause ill pull the a/f grahps up an theyll be flat and where they are supposed to be, its your motor that failed. not my problem.
cheers
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Well then, lets agree to disagree so we save ourselves the time
A CAST PISTON will not hold up OVER TIME to 18-20psi, sorry. thats my opinion. If you disagree with it, then thats fine, and im not saying people CANT make XXX whp, but to classify it as RELIABLE whp, when your making double to triple to quadruple the oringal power out put an call it reliable, i find that funny
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