A shop screwed up.....

[siegelracing]

I've tuned that car since it was a pile of parts in boxes in the back seats. The previous owner was advised to change EM. He didn't want to because he was just getting it running to sell.

When you bought the car you were advised to change EM. I thought you had agreed. That particular car, with the hybrid motor and some continuous issues (since the car was assembled), needs more EM than UTEC (the fighting between ecu and piggyback makes diagnosis virtually impossible).

There is a reason that it can't safely be leaned out... again, I thought we were in agreement to start by changing EM.

When you left, you asked if it was safe to beat on (as you posted above). My response of "should be" came with the qualifier of "through 4th gear"

I'm sorry to appear harsh, but it really all comes down to this:

we have agreed that you got at least as much work done as you paid for, therefore you are not entitled to a refund or additional work for free

Originally Posted by UpSideDownDesi
how's it goin Scott,
Remember i talked to you about getting the car tweaked and tuned with a new intake pipe and filter, plus see what's going on with my UTEC. When can i come it...i am free next week afternoon time after 2:30. Sucks all these upgrade and running almost stock. How much was the tweak with the new intake?
P.S no the car didn't get sold lol.

replied by Siegel
I thought that you were going to get some "real" engine management... I actually thought you were selling it. Anyway, what turbo is on it? What do you want to do for EM? Next week is already over-booked. We are booking into the following week. We are at Nopi right now (I'm replying curteousy of one of our members - O2 Secure Wireless). Mike will be back at BG next Tuesday. Give him a call and he can book you an appointment.

Siegel

[Tracy]

Desi, if you know anything about tuning you would know A/F's that low means something is wrong with the car, not necessarily the tune. Sounds like a serious boost leak. Pressurize the system and spray soapy water on everything from piping, couplers, throttle body, and manifold gaskets. Make sure to check for cracks in the manifolds also.

If the tuner says they tried everything possible(tuning wise) to get the A/F's correct and nothing would happen, it's not the tuning.

Also, I've never seen an air filter and intake piping change the A/F's from 11:1 to 9:1.

Do a boost leak check and I'm sure you'll find the problem. Let us know how it goes.



When you've been in a certain field for a number of years you become pretty comfortable while working. Being on a cell phone tuning a car or any other job for that matter is not considered professional, but keep in mind, a missed call from your wife could mean a couple nights on the couch. Sometimes it's better to seem unprofessional then to deal with wife issues. If your not married yet, you won't know what I mean.

I think the tuner is right in this situation. Next time the car is getting tuned and issues come up, stop the tuning immediately, and bring the car back another day.

I recently had a similar situation at Topspeed. The injector duty cycle was too high and the A/F's were off substantially and we didn't know why. After tuning for about 30 minutes with no luck, we began troubleshooting the issue. It turns out one of the vacuum lines was off and hiding under the manifold out of sight. We reconnected the line and the A/F's were back in check and the duty cycle was dropped.

The littlest things can cause the biggest problems.


Edit: BTW, tuning should have taken 30 minutes TOPS on my car, but because of that little issue I paid for 1 1/2 hours. Sucks, but as the saying goes "you gotta pay to play".

It's NEVER ok to be on the phone while at work unless it is work related...and then it must go through the front office. Your wife can leave a message. Once upon a time, like 5 years ago, there were no cell phones and that's the way everything worked. Your wife left a message at the front desk. This is a perfect example of why being on the phone is unprofessional and I will stand by that. The customer thinks he was cheated, #1, and #2 the "issue" never made it to the proper person to be dealt with. That being said, to me it's not about the mechanical issue, although I know it IS an issue. That was an easy thing to hash out. It happens everyday. Working on cars is like surgery. There are a ton of bits and pieces that have to work together and if one has a problem, the whole thing has a problem. We know how to deal with those situations and make people understand. To me the issue with our shop name could have been sorted out if the customer had called the front office. That's not to bash on him, it's just to reiterate the point. Management should be in charge of situations like this. I would have liked to have known there was an issue 3 months ago and maybe it wouldn't have gotten to this point now. The fact is that it did and our shop name has been dragged through the mud with this customers friends before we even had a chance to know what was going on.

Like I said on WRXAtlanta: Glad this is being hashed out. Good luck with everything guys. Like I already said, be careful what you say and who you say it to. People's livelihood may depend on your hasty statements. Make sure you have exhausted all proper outlets before you cancel CC payments

Also, people who read on the Internet or hear about an encounter your friend may have ha...take it with a grain of salt there are usually 3 sides to every story.

[Vteckidd]

Im a surgeon, cutting for the very first time

[ueyedgr8tness]

Im a surgeon, cutting for the very first time

[UpSideDownDesi]

I've tuned that car since it was a pile of parts in boxes in the back seats. The previous owner was advised to change EM. He didn't want to because he was just getting it running to sell.

When you bought the car you were advised to change EM. I thought you had agreed. That particular car, with the hybrid motor and some continuous issues (since the car was assembled), needs more EM than UTEC (the fighting between ecu and piggyback makes diagnosis virtually impossible).

There is a reason that it can't safely be leaned out... again, I thought we were in agreement to start by changing EM.

When you left, you asked if it was safe to beat on (as you posted above). My response of "should be" came with the qualifier of "through 4th gear"

I'm sorry to appear harsh, but it really all comes down to this:

we have agreed that you got at least as much work done as you paid for, therefore you are not entitled to a refund or additional work for free

Originally Posted by UpSideDownDesi
how's it goin Scott,
Remember i talked to you about getting the car tweaked and tuned with a new intake pipe and filter, plus see what's going on with my UTEC. When can i come it...i am free next week afternoon time after 2:30. Sucks all these upgrade and running almost stock. How much was the tweak with the new intake?
P.S no the car didn't get sold lol.

replied by Siegel
I thought that you were going to get some "real" engine management... I actually thought you were selling it. Anyway, what turbo is on it? What do you want to do for EM? Next week is already over-booked. We are booking into the following week. We are at Nopi right now (I'm replying curteousy of one of our members - O2 Secure Wireless). Mike will be back at BG next Tuesday. Give him a call and he can book you an appointment.

Siegel

Scott never did you mention to me that you won't be safely able to tune my car. Never did you say UTEC was holding you back. "When are you going to get real engine management", says nothing. Also you failed to tell me that the car wasn't 4th+ gear safe. There was no "qualifier." Haha why would i take a car home that is only good till 4th gear when i have 2 more gears left??? Car came in running good in all gears and left running good only up to 4th gear? If there was a problem with the car i would have told you when I initially contacted you. I paid for a full tune not tune upto 4th gear, if you were not able to tune my car should have let me known right that moment so we could have stopped. I don't make BS up and only stand behind when i know i got done wrong.....anyone is welcomed to prove me wrong on that. Scott knowing the person you are, last thing i would expect from you is making things up and lying/being unprofessional to cover yourself......which i saw here. I respected you even after the tune, but i don't any more. I am sorry to say, but you straight up ripped me off and did a bad tune...then didn't take any responsibility. Why do u think i came to you when i needed the car to get tweaked, when other told me go diff places? I should have listened.

[2.3 Evo 8]

It's NEVER ok to be on the phone while at work unless it is work related...and then it must go through the front office. Your wife can leave a message. Once upon a time, like 5 years ago, there were no cell phones and that's the way everything worked. Your wife left a message at the front desk. This is a perfect example of why being on the phone is unprofessional and I will stand by that. The customer thinks he was cheated, #1, and #2 the "issue" never made it to the proper person to be dealt with. That being said, to me it's not about the mechanical issue, although I know it IS an issue. That was an easy thing to hash out. It happens everyday. Working on cars is like surgery. There are a ton of bits and pieces that have to work together and if one has a problem, the whole thing has a problem. We know how to deal with those situations and make people understand. To me the issue with our shop name could have been sorted out if the customer had called the front office. That's not to bash on him, it's just to reiterate the point. Management should be in charge of situations like this. I would have liked to have known there was an issue 3 months ago and maybe it wouldn't have gotten to this point now. The fact is that it did and our shop name has been dragged through the mud with this customers friends before we even had a chance to know what was going on.

Like I said on WRXAtlanta: Glad this is being hashed out. Good luck with everything guys. Like I already said, be careful what you say and who you say it to. People's livelihood may depend on your hasty statements. Make sure you have exhausted all proper outlets before you cancel CC payments

Also, people who read on the Internet or hear about an encounter your friend may have ha...take it with a grain of salt there are usually 3 sides to every story.

I'm my own boss and I wear an ear piece occasionally while working plus I rarely deal with the customer one on one. I guess it depends on the line of work.


You are right though, there is always 3 sides to every story.

[2.3 Evo 8]

Boost leak results?

[Vteckidd]

I think its pretty clear what happened.

case closed

[Tracy]

welp so much for that

[Maniac1]

I think its pretty clear what happened.

case closed

This may be true, but im sure there are alot more people who might want to put their two cents into this. If the thread starter didn't request for his thread to be locked, I don't think someone should just lock it because they think the case is closed.

[Vteckidd]

Well lets recap:

Customer posted he was upset with tuner
Tuner responded
Customer claims tuner is lying
Tuner responds with detailed PMs about the conversation
Customer still feels like he was cheated

all the facts are out, people can form their own opinions. I was going to lock it to avoid drama and 20 more pags of he said she said.

Ill be watching this closely

[GAtegs]

This may be true, but im sure there are alot more people who might want to put their two cents into this. If the thread starter didn't request for his thread to be locked, I don't think someone should just lock it because they think the case is closed.

It's not locked anymore...what are you whining about?

[AnthonyF]

It's not locked anymore...what are you whining about?

How was his post considerded whining? the case is closed and should have stayed lock. but it's Mr. Kidds decision.

[Vteckidd]

I unlocked it to see if people could stay on topic an not shop bash.

Since this is a misunderstanding between Mr. Siegel and a User on IA, until either one of them tells me to lock it, ill leave it open.

AS LONG AS NO DRAMA ENSUES

[Tracy]

This may be true, but im sure there are alot more people who might want to put their two cents into this. If the thread starter didn't request for his thread to be locked, I don't think someone should just lock it because they think the case is closed.

He is a mod. Case was closed according to some. Case was not closed according to others. Now it's open. Say your piece

[UpSideDownDesi]

thank you for unlocking it. Please keep it unlocked until i ask to lock.

Mr. Siegel still hasn't answered many of my questions.

I will stand behind that the tuner is lying/making up some things to cover himself (Sorry Scott i didn't want to go this harsh, but i have no respect for lairs.) I already have proved 1 of his statements wrong and sooner or later prove others wrong.

Everyone is welcomed to go read the PM between me and Scott Siegel. I will be more than happy to answer any questions.

*There is no Bashing on the Shop they have handled this how a professionals and a business should....they cleared lot of things that were unclear before.

You can also follow here..... http://wrxatlanta.com/forums/showthr...=17498&page=10

[Tracy]

The thing that should be the most clear is that if you have a problem, you handle it through the proper outlets before you speak in haste and ESPECIALLY before you cancel CC payments.

This is not to say that Scott was wrong in his work and diagnosis of your car. I have full faith in Scott's work or else we would have never thought of partnering with him. I will say again, I don't know the situation but for the fact that you called his cell phone and not the shop number with your concerns and then you called the CC company (my biggest issue). I just found out about the PM's in this thread. The rest of what happened is all new to me.

[siegelracing]

I'm not sure what you "proved me wrong on..." and I don't appreciate being called a liar. You knew full well that there were problems with the car, you knew what the afr's were the whole time, nothing was kept/hidden/lied about.

USDD and all - as this was 3 months and a bunch of cars ago, I don't remember every detail. Looking through the PM's shows that we spoke of a known boost control issue. You have been told all along that there were issues with the car that required changing EM to get right. The previous owner didn't want to spend the money because he was just selling it. The first time you and I met, you didn't want to put the money in because you were planning on selling it. Every time you have asked someone who knows the car you have gotten the same answer, and refused to listen to it.

There is a REASON that the car is so rich, and there is/was not an efficient way to diagnose it with the UTEC installed.

I'd have been happy to continue working on it with you, but as I have said all along, nothing was owed to you, so it can't have been free...

I thought we were in agreement that it wasn't worth continuing to put time and money into the UTEC.

It really comes down to this:

You have a problem car. We worked on your problems. You paid for the work that was done. Then you decided that you should either get more work for free, or get your money back. Neither is an option.

I'm not sure what your plan for all this is. You haven't contacted me in 3 months, then you decide to do it publicly. You state in a public forum that you have a lousy tune. You ask "the world in general" what it will cost to fix an unknown problem...

Tuning is not magic. The only thing that is remotely "magical" is the experiences a tuner has that give him an idea where to go to fix a problem, and when to stop trying to tune out a mechanical issue. Once there are no problems the rest is just calibration - tweaking the input to get the right output. The map that you came in with had more fuel in it than the map you left with.

When we started dynoing we noticed that it was incredibly rich, we took a TON of fuel out of it. Then the "magic of experience" kicked in and said, there's a problem - it won't lean out with reasonable values in the map.

You had repeatedly stated a desire to limit your spending on the car. In an effort to save you money, we ended the tuning with a less than perfect result AND THE STATEMENT THAT YOU WOULD BE CHANGING EM AND DOING MORE TUNING.

I have spent an excessive amount of time dealing with this situation. You got work done. You paid for the work done. More work takes more money. The work done was not "bad." The car was rich, then died. It required tuning (making the opensource map) to diagnose and fix the mechanical. The mechanical work was done and further tuning commenced. We were still rich and continued taking fuel out until my experiences said, "there is a problem."

You knew full well that there was a problem with it being rich AND AGREED TO CHANGE EM. Then you asked for money back or more work for free...

I have spent enough time on this. I do my absolute best to give 100% customer satisfaction. Most people know that I go WAY above and beyond, often being excessively generous with my time, and giving advice that saves my customers money (often reducing what I make). The time that I have spent on this has taken time from other customers and my family. I would like this to be my last post on this.

Siegel

[Tracy]

And now we have a CC dispute to deal with

[JITB]

ohsnap!

[Alan®]

damn this sucks. I have heard nothing but good things about batlground and the people they partner up with from Derf who has not one but two cars worked on by them the first being a very extensive build up and the last one just minor stuff. I really hope that this situation is resolved peacefully so that in the end the Rex runs the way it should and that the relationship between Batlground and it's customers can prosper. Good luck to both sides

[siegelracing]

Batlground has done nothing wrong here... (I don't believe I've done anything wrong either, but they certainly haven't)

Siegel

[EmminoDaGreat]

/\/\ you might wanna change ur sig chief.

[siegelracing]

/\/\ you might wanna change ur sig chief.

Gotcha I had just figured it out...

[Alan®]

you mean avatar.

[EmminoDaGreat]

No i meen sig jackass, he does not work for batlground anymore.

[AnthonyF]

Mr. Siegal, i sent you a PM. lemme know if u can help me out. looking forward to your professionalism.

[Alan®]

No i meen sig jackass, he does not work for batlground anymore.

no need for name calling lol now it all makes sense.Lol. My bad.

[EmminoDaGreat]

appology accepted hahaaaaaaaaaaaaaaaaaaaaaaaaaaaaaaaaaaaaaaaa

[Vteckidd]

i just downloaded the Bourne Ultimatum, Superbad and the entire season 2 of HEROES in 1080P

And im posting from my couch suckas

[iloveboost]

i just downloaded the Bourne Ultimatum, Superbad and the entire season 2 of HEROES in 1080P

And im posting from my couch suckas

Umm... LSU is about to put a whoopin on Ohio State. Movies can wait.

[Vteckidd]

2 teams i could care less about

[Alan®]

yup lol and mike you are a lucky bastard what kind of setup are you running?

[Maniac1]

yup lol and mike you are a lucky bastard what kind of setup are you running?

Send him a pm if you wanna know, why thread jack?

[Alan®]

thread was already jacked

[Vteckidd]

yup lol and mike you are a lucky bastard what kind of setup are you running?

2.2 ghz Dual Core
500 Gig HD
2 Gig of ram

Standard HP tower with media options nothing too fancy. I have my PC hooked up to my Samsung 46in LCd TV thats on the wall.

I have a logitech wireless keyboard and mouse.

Phillips 5.1 Surround sound.

I can post, dl, and play PS3, watch movies and TV all from the couch LOL

I hope to convince tracy to let me route the calls at the shop to my cell phone an i can work from home HEHE.

I should take pics an post them

[Vteckidd]

Correction Heroes isnt in 1080P , but the movies are.

Im Downloading Saw IV and 310 to Yuma now.

I got I AM LEGEND if anyone wants it

[Alan®]

so basically you just have the computer hooked into the tv through the monitor hook up that most of the new tv's have? Good **** man

[Alan®]

hell yea send it to me man where do you get all this stuff do you have it in 720 though?

[Vteckidd]

yeah my tower is hooked up to my TV with a standard monitor plug.

My PC doesnt have HDMI, the only thing i need to upgrade on it is the video card, which i dont really play games on it, and the movies qulaity is good enough for me now.

Ill upgrade it eventually so i can run HDMI to the TV instead of VGA

My PS3 is hooked up HDMI though