Yeah but I mean I sure as hell wouldnt pay for it again. If you decide to pay for their mistakes youre just giving in.
Yeah but I mean I sure as hell wouldnt pay for it again. If you decide to pay for their mistakes youre just giving in.
i am not paying again....i talked to few other shops and they said if everything was on and good t go it should have taken 1hr to tune it....about $140-160 for the tune. Compared to $400 i paid. I will be looking at some kind of compensation.Originally Posted by mushroom_toy
Thats good then. A good way to go about it.
at least ur sh*t didnt blow up like mine due to a bad tune.good luck mang. I'll hit u up when Im back to full boost
The Carbon Fibered R6
lol it would have if i wouldn't have caught it.at least ur sh*t didnt blow up like mine due to a bad tune.
that's terrible. i hate shop screw up my car. your first time to that shop? hope u solve the problem soon.
that is some ****ed up bs..
You know better; next time will be a ban.
can u sue them for stuff like that?
no. With aftermarket performance ****, usually it is a no warranty except on the parts if they fail. Which is hardly ever.
The Carbon Fibered R6
i'll keep y'all up dated...lets see what happens.
Best of luck to you with working this out.
02 WRX Sport Wagon
yea man, best of luck.
maybe he messed something up while he was tuning your car and talking on his cell phone.
9:1 AFR and flashing MIL is probably a mutliple cylinder misfire from a rich misfire.
It might actually be richer because even a wideband will only read so rich.
Sounds like it's on them.
I think there is more to the story than being told. I have talked with the tuner and I don't think there is anything tuning related that may have caused this issue.
From what I was told your car had numerous mechanical issues. Some of which were fixed, but others weren't. One of them being your turbo with had terminal boost creep in 5th and 6th. I believe you were told of this and yet you still decided to run your car WOT in 5th and 6th.
That is not a tuners fault.
Val for President!
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Go Faster at TopSpeed!
Oh snap it sounds like its the opposite of low not speed's fault......
white power!!!!!!.....1
So 3 months ago Upsidedowndesi brought the car to me for tuning at Batlground. The car had multiple mechanical issues. There appeared to be serious electronic (mechanical) issues.
Shortly into the tuning the car shut off and refused to restart. (this prevented any further tuning until fixing the problem)
Diagnosing the "unable to start issue" required creating an opensource map to run the car without the UTEC (this was tuning)
Once the mechanical issue (that had left the customer stranded on the side of the road on multiple occasions) was FIXED we commenced tuning.
The car still had issues and Upsidedowndesi and I agreed that he needed to change engine management. The car was tuned as safely as seemed possible with continued underlying issues.
After WELL over 4 hours of working on the car, and quite late in the evening (our appointment time having been stretched by the unscheduled mechanical issues = car not ready for tuning) we agreed he would change engine management and retune. Despite well over 4 hours ON THE DYNO, he was charged 2 hours of tuning and 1 hour of labor.
I believe that I was quite generous and he received more work than he paid for.
The next day, he PM'd me that he thought I should get his car perfect with the UTEC for FREE, or give him his money back. I still felt that he had received more work than he paid for and did not feel I owed him free work or a refund. His car would no longer leave him stranded and was safe through 4th gear (as I told him). I thought we had been in agreement to change engine management.
I will attach the PM's below.
Siegel
Scott
<><
404-388-8751
I'll post what i posted on WRXatlanta:
Scott please don't say things that are not true. Car didn't have "multiple serious issues" hence you should have told me about them if they were so serious. Only serious one that came up was the "car shutting off" and it came up after 2 pulls and took 1 hr to fix after that car was back to normal. U didn't not tell me of any other mechanical issues that kept you from tunning my car (which you should have if they were serious like you said). BTW i made you inform about the "car shutting off randomly issue" as soon you put the car on dyno and you said, "we'll check it out if it comes up." You knew about it to when Will was trying to figure it out. So it didn't come outta the blue.
You never did a 5th gear+ pull on the car. Maybe you are thinking you took my car on the street, but u didn't. You said it yourself, "i take the cars i tune on the street after the tune, but i can't take yours out because it's dark outside." It puzzled me for a sec, but i let that one by. May be u didn't take it out because you were getting late? You said upgrade to Access Port because it's a better EM and i said, yes i will in future. No where you said that UTEC was keeping you from tunning the car or else i would have stopped right then and there instead you kept on trying and that costed me money.
The "opensource map" was you simply running the car on stock ECU to see if it was UTEC that was causing shutting off problem, but it wasn't.
**Scott you NEVER told me that the car wasn't 4th+ gear safe (however way you found out that it wasn't)? I would have never taken that car home that night knowing the unsafe condition it was in (i am sure ppl who know me, know how i am when it comes to my cars and caring about them...especially when good bit invested in it and i worked very had for every penny in the car). So knowingly you let me go with the car that u knew wasn't safe for the street without informing me about it? You just agreed on that you gave me a unsafe car and charged me for it.
Can you please state the other "serious electronic mechanical issues".....other than shutting off and everyone's fav UTEC lol
You didn't not put 4hrs tunning that car.....you put in 2 hours and i agree with that. I came in 3:15....i sat down for few mins....you took the keys...3:50 car was on the dyno...you took ur lunch break.....4:20 you came out....new intake and filter was installed. First pull was at 4:30 and car came off the dyno at 8:30...tunning stopped at 8:00. That's 3 hrs 30 mins on dyno....1 hour to fix the mechanical issue.....2 hours 30 mins on dyno then you spent good 30-45mins helping the other guy on a Blue STi....taking the motor out then discussing how this is the owners 4th motor, why some built blocks are worthelss, few things about the parts laying around, etc etc (I don't see how helping someone else on a different car is tunning my car). Then 15-20min talking outside talking to the guys when they where stripping down BG drift car.....if i break it down that is less that 2 hours of dyno tune time.
You are basically saying you spent all the time to fix my shutting off problem? That would be 3hrX$80. Can you also state what progress or what were you able to achieve tunning my car. How did u make it safer? Here's the dyno chart. 1st untuned pull looks exact same as last pull (last pull...i have no clue what as going on on that one), only with car loosing power and AFR still off the chart and what i saw was 9:1.
Very funny with jokes..i like cheese, but i don't like Hamburger.......i don't eat hamburgers so tank you come again lol.
Tracy didn't mean to bash on BG.....Mike shed some light on me. Y'all have been very helpful.
Last edited by UpSideDownDesi; 01-07-2008 at 03:11 AM.
CAR HAS NO FAACKING SERIOUS MECHANICAL ISSUES or it did when the car went in for tunning. Like i said.....1 issue came up and it was fixed. I am not a jackass to sit here and make myself look stupid. Even scott himself said that, "it can't be leaking boost." when he tuned the car. I would know a serious issue when driving the car....only one so far was/is the knock problem and car running rich.
Originally Posted by UpSideDownDesi
thanks for taking care of EGT glitch and tunning the car, but i am not really happy with the tune man. The car is feeling weaker than before. I played with it on my way home and i don't feel the same pull as before. I know you put in time and tried getting the Air-Fuel Ratio good, but for me to fork out $406, still not gain anything and have almost or less whp/tq numbers/AFR/other numbers as first untuned pull doesn't help. I saw whp/wtq loss, something i was expecting to go up with a new straight intake pipe. I wasn't expecting the tab to be this high considering it was just new intake and you tweaking your old map on it. I am working really hard for my money right now, and every dollar goes long way. I would like to bring the car back and get the figures right so i can feel the money i spent didn't go to waste and walk away happy.
replied by siegel
I'm sorry you are feeling that way. Technically 4 hours on the dyno should have cost $640. The $406 was cutting quite a break. I feel that I did put in well over two solid hours of tuning and a full hour of mechanical labor.
The car MIGHT have been leaner with that old pipe. We didn't dyno it on the old pipe. The final pull was still higher than the first pull.
After putting in a proper pipe, all the tuning that I did made it leaner (telling it that the injectors are bigger, and putting much lower numbers in the fuel map...) which should be making it faster. I still think that you might have a boost leak, and there are obviously still boost control issues...
If I had made a mistake or missed something then I would of course fix it at no cost/not charge originally. However, the ordeal of flashing the ecu, removing the UTEC, and working our way to the EGT diagnosis was addressing what I believed to be a much more important issue, but not one that added power. I didn't cause it, and there was no way to diagnose it faster. Therefore, I can't "eat" the time/cost.
I will do everything I can to make you a happy customer, but I can't do it for free.
I felt that we had made HUGE gains for the $406. To have a car that should run more consistently and more importantly not SHUT OFF AND LEAVE YOU STRANDED, I though was more important than another 10 horsepower.
I feel that you have received appropriate work for what you paid for. We can certainly move forward and make more power, but at the normal rate.
You know that I am generous with my time, but right now, I believe that the $$$/work that has been spent so far is fair.
Additional work will also be done at a fair price.
Let me know if you want to proceed with some of the plans we discussed.
Thanks,
Siegel
Originally Posted by UpSideDownDesi
hi scott,
can you reply back plz, if you can't re-tune the car and take care of the issues or questions i have...i would like to get credit back for the tune time because i'll just be taking the car back to another shop the get issues fixed. I can't afford anything to go wrong in the car. I saw the check engine light blinking under full woot in 5th and 6th gear. I am pretty sure it's the same code you deleted after taking the car off dyno. I will bring the car back, but to also get other problems fixed that didn't get taken care of that night....all covered under previous tune time i paid for. Let me know....thanks.
replied by siegel
Sorry for the delay. We have been very busy at the shop.
There is no credit to get back. You paid for services rendered. I worked on the car, fixing a number of issues that HAD TO BE FIXED IN ORDER TO TUNE, then you paid for the work that was done.
This was not a situation where I was working on something "extra." The car would not run to work on horsepower. The "stalling/egt" issue HAD to be fixed because the car WOULD NOT RUN. There was no way to "work on horsepower" with the car not able to run at full throttle.
As we discussed, I believe the flashing CEL could be due to your boost control issue.
If you go to the dentist for a cleaning, and he finds another problem, you generally have to schedule another appointment to fix it. You still have to pay for both appointments.
We were unable to tune for hp, and to tune on the street due to a MECHANICAL problem that used up your appointment time. Having used your appointment time to get the car running, you must make a new appointment for additional tuning. You obviously must pay for the work done to fix the problem. Then you will also have to pay for additional work.
I am sorry that there seems to have been a misunderstanding, but the current situation is that you have paid for services rendered. Additional services will require additional payment.
Siegel
[quote=UpSideDownDesi]Thanks for the reply, I understand that when the EGT problem took over you weren't able to tune the car and focused on taking care of that problem first and i paid for that time separate. After taking care of the EGT problem the car was back to normal and you did pulls on it to work on Hp and better up the numbers....tunning it. Your whole time didn't go toward fixing the EGT problem. Car was mechanically fine before EGT problem came up and after it got fixed...you were able to tune the car. I know if i go to the dentist to get something taken care of and if they find something new the set me up for another appt, but at the same time they don't charge for the service they left incomplete and tell me to come again and pay for it again. You say i have to bring the car back in to get it tuned. I did bring it in for a tune last time and paid for tune time. From what i remember you said the check engine light flashes when the car is misfiring and that's the code that came up when you were taking the car off the dyno. The car might be misfiring at high RPM's and full boost.....def is not a safe thing. I know u deleted the code so i could pass emission, but at the same time i also wanted to know what caused it to misfire because it only happened in the end after messing around with the maps. Scott i could have slapped the new pipe on and called it a day if i wanted a car with trouble. Only reason i brought the car in was i didn't want any problems and get the AFR, hp, tq numbers up and straight. I have seen you tune, respect you as a tuner, and def don't want this to be my last time getting my car tuned from you. I know you were in a rush to get home that night since it was getting late. I certainly don't want this lil problem to keep me away from getting my car done from you in future. I don't like to go from shop to shop or tuner to tuner....reason i brought the car back to you since you worked in it initially. Give it a thought and tell me if can fix my states issues or credit back then let me know...i'll take that as ur final answer.
replied by siegel
Most of the EGT diagnosis was tuning. I had to make a map to let us remove the UTEC. Technically ALL time spent ON the dyno should be charged as tuning, at $155 per hour. If a mechanical issue stops the tuning you should be allowed to make a FUTURE appointment for mechanical labor. I was trying to be helpful by trying to fix a car that wouldn't run to get you home.
You did not pay for a "service left incomplete" you paid 3 hours for over 4 hours spent working on it. Tuning is a $$$/Hour thing, not a "flat-rate" ($$$/job) thing.
I should also have stopped working at 7pm when we officially close, but again, I wanted to get you the best running car that I could in a reasonable amount of time.
As I see it, it comes down to this:
1) Your car was on the dyno for OVER 4 hours
2) You paid for 3 hours, one of which I "generously" set as "mechanical labor" at $80/hour instead of tuning at $155/hour
You have already received more service than you paid for (I am always a little generous). I am happy to work on your car again in the future, and I will be fair with the charge, but it can't be free.
Please let me know if you would like to set up another appointment,
Siegel
Scott
<><
404-388-8751
O holy shi* can i share some love. desi i would say just park that suby untill u can get all the kinks out of the car mechanical issue's before trying to tune it.cause tuning a car and fixing a cars problems= alot of time and $ thats why its best when a tuner like ''scott'' tells u something is wrong and needs to be done before tune its best to just do what he suggest because he has tuned alot of suby's and wouldn't want u to wast his time trying to tune something he already no haves mechanical problems and is not going to make a good tune
this "i make less hp than before" is prob him comparing SOGs old DYNOPAC to our DYNOJET.
The car had mechanical problems , Tuning is TIME ON A DYNO. IT IS NOT "IF YOU MAKE HORSEPOWER"
/THREAD
Enterprise Data Resources- Ecommerce Project Manager
-www.usedbarcode.net
That is a good point so basically what it comes down to is the guy got a street tune on a car that shouldn't have been tuned in the first place because it was not mechanically sound.
To the subie guy- You will never win this fight on IA aka battlegroundleghumpers.com
Pretty uncalled for
You should be proud you know its true. I wouldn't start a e-fight with you guys you roll to deep.Pretty uncalled for
Please tell me you are getting a kouki front end and a full race 30-71 kit for your drift baby.
i agree wit tracy...but who the fuk likes BG anyways? GAWSH.
mr kidd or tracy doesnt matter: when they "mustang dyno" which company is that or is that the name of the dyno? also, which in YOUR opinion is the most accurate dyno?
The Carbon Fibered R6
Mustang Dyno is their own brand and there is really no such thing as an accurate dyno....its really all theory.
The most accurate dyno is the drag strip.
or any other racing event
Enterprise Data Resources- Ecommerce Project Manager
-www.usedbarcode.net
Theres no fight to win....did you even read the thread
Batlground.com
Enterprise Data Resources- Ecommerce Project Manager
-www.usedbarcode.net
cheese.com
"Cool car" less.
Anti-Nutswingers Crew - Member # 001
Desi, if you know anything about tuning you would know A/F's that low means something is wrong with the car, not necessarily the tune. Sounds like a serious boost leak. Pressurize the system and spray soapy water on everything from piping, couplers, throttle body, and manifold gaskets. Make sure to check for cracks in the manifolds also.
If the tuner says they tried everything possible(tuning wise) to get the A/F's correct and nothing would happen, it's not the tuning.
Also, I've never seen an air filter and intake piping change the A/F's from 11:1 to 9:1.
Do a boost leak check and I'm sure you'll find the problem. Let us know how it goes.
When you've been in a certain field for a number of years you become pretty comfortable while working. Being on a cell phone tuning a car or any other job for that matter is not considered professional, but keep in mind, a missed call from your wife could mean a couple nights on the couch. Sometimes it's better to seem unprofessional then to deal with wife issues. If your not married yet, you won't know what I mean.
I think the tuner is right in this situation. Next time the car is getting tuned and issues come up, stop the tuning immediately, and bring the car back another day.
I recently had a similar situation at Topspeed. The injector duty cycle was too high and the A/F's were off substantially and we didn't know why. After tuning for about 30 minutes with no luck, we began troubleshooting the issue. It turns out one of the vacuum lines was off and hiding under the manifold out of sight. We reconnected the line and the A/F's were back in check and the duty cycle was dropped.
The littlest things can cause the biggest problems.
Edit: BTW, tuning should have taken 30 minutes TOPS on my car, but because of that little issue I paid for 1 1/2 hours. Sucks, but as the saying goes "you gotta pay to play".
It's NEVER ok to be on the phone while at work unless it is work related...and then it must go through the front office. Your wife can leave a message. Once upon a time, like 5 years ago, there were no cell phones and that's the way everything worked. Your wife left a message at the front desk. This is a perfect example of why being on the phone is unprofessional and I will stand by that. The customer thinks he was cheated, #1, and #2 the "issue" never made it to the proper person to be dealt with. That being said, to me it's not about the mechanical issue, although I know it IS an issue. That was an easy thing to hash out. It happens everyday. Working on cars is like surgery. There are a ton of bits and pieces that have to work together and if one has a problem, the whole thing has a problem. We know how to deal with those situations and make people understand. To me the issue with our shop name could have been sorted out if the customer had called the front office. That's not to bash on him, it's just to reiterate the point. Management should be in charge of situations like this. I would have liked to have known there was an issue 3 months ago and maybe it wouldn't have gotten to this point now. The fact is that it did and our shop name has been dragged through the mud with this customers friends before we even had a chance to know what was going on.
Like I said on WRXAtlanta: Glad this is being hashed out. Good luck with everything guys. Like I already said, be careful what you say and who you say it to. People's livelihood may depend on your hasty statements. Make sure you have exhausted all proper outlets before you cancel CC payments
Also, people who read on the Internet or hear about an encounter your friend may have ha...take it with a grain of salt there are usually 3 sides to every story.
I'm my own boss and I wear an ear piece occasionally while working plus I rarely deal with the customer one on one. I guess it depends on the line of work.It's NEVER ok to be on the phone while at work unless it is work related...and then it must go through the front office. Your wife can leave a message. Once upon a time, like 5 years ago, there were no cell phones and that's the way everything worked. Your wife left a message at the front desk. This is a perfect example of why being on the phone is unprofessional and I will stand by that. The customer thinks he was cheated, #1, and #2 the "issue" never made it to the proper person to be dealt with. That being said, to me it's not about the mechanical issue, although I know it IS an issue. That was an easy thing to hash out. It happens everyday. Working on cars is like surgery. There are a ton of bits and pieces that have to work together and if one has a problem, the whole thing has a problem. We know how to deal with those situations and make people understand. To me the issue with our shop name could have been sorted out if the customer had called the front office. That's not to bash on him, it's just to reiterate the point. Management should be in charge of situations like this. I would have liked to have known there was an issue 3 months ago and maybe it wouldn't have gotten to this point now. The fact is that it did and our shop name has been dragged through the mud with this customers friends before we even had a chance to know what was going on.
Like I said on WRXAtlanta: Glad this is being hashed out. Good luck with everything guys. Like I already said, be careful what you say and who you say it to. People's livelihood may depend on your hasty statements. Make sure you have exhausted all proper outlets before you cancel CC payments
Also, people who read on the Internet or hear about an encounter your friend may have ha...take it with a grain of salt there are usually 3 sides to every story.
You are right though, there is always 3 sides to every story.
sunny I have met you before and think you are a stand up guy but obviously the car had mechanical issues whether you realized it or not. i am no tunning genious but know enoguh to say that little things can cause big problems and all the tunning in the world will not fix pre-existing mechanical problems/failuires. i suggest you do what stay up said and park the subie go back to driving the acura and sock away the money to get the car running perfectly before trying to tune. the last thing you need is to have a motor with 2500 miles on it to blow up on you simply because you failed to fix a mechanical problems. Also be glad you haven't sold this car yet as you would be in a big heap of **** with the new owner.
Epic Foxbody Thread Crew Member #10
Val RIP
Can I have "boost leak for $1000" Alex.
*Sean Connery Voice*Anal Bum Cover for $500 please
Epic Foxbody Thread Crew Member #10
Your wager..... Texas ... with a dollar sign in front of it.... brilliant!
I've tuned that car since it was a pile of parts in boxes in the back seats. The previous owner was advised to change EM. He didn't want to because he was just getting it running to sell.
When you bought the car you were advised to change EM. I thought you had agreed. That particular car, with the hybrid motor and some continuous issues (since the car was assembled), needs more EM than UTEC (the fighting between ecu and piggyback makes diagnosis virtually impossible).
There is a reason that it can't safely be leaned out... again, I thought we were in agreement to start by changing EM.
When you left, you asked if it was safe to beat on (as you posted above). My response of "should be" came with the qualifier of "through 4th gear"
I'm sorry to appear harsh, but it really all comes down to this:
we have agreed that you got at least as much work done as you paid for, therefore you are not entitled to a refund or additional work for free
Originally Posted by UpSideDownDesi
how's it goin Scott,
Remember i talked to you about getting the car tweaked and tuned with a new intake pipe and filter, plus see what's going on with my UTEC. When can i come it...i am free next week afternoon time after 2:30. Sucks all these upgrade and running almost stock. How much was the tweak with the new intake?
P.S no the car didn't get sold lol.
replied by Siegel
I thought that you were going to get some "real" engine management... I actually thought you were selling it. Anyway, what turbo is on it? What do you want to do for EM? Next week is already over-booked. We are booking into the following week. We are at Nopi right now (I'm replying curteousy of one of our members - O2 Secure Wireless). Mike will be back at BG next Tuesday. Give him a call and he can book you an appointment.
Siegel
Last edited by siegelracing; 01-07-2008 at 06:52 AM.
Scott
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