Could Jesus have been an alien?

[geoff]

d993s...if you look at all scientific evidence the way your interpreting it then that means we cant trully believe in anything. How do you know that gravity is real if you cant feel it or touch it or hear or smell or taste it? because in some point in time a man did a study and WROTE down his findings to explain it and you believe that man yes? i have said it once and i will say it again, for you there is no such thing as enough evidence. when you die, as we all do, and stand before your maker then you will believe.

[d993s]

d993s...if you look at all scientific evidence the way your interpreting it then that means we cant trully believe in anything. How do you know that gravity is real if you cant feel it or touch it or hear or smell or taste it? because in some point in time a man did a study and WROTE down his findings to explain it and you believe that man yes? i have said it once and i will say it again, for you there is no such thing as enough evidence. when you die, as we all do, and stand before your maker then you will believe.

Simple: THERE IS UNDENIABLE EVIDENCE TO BACK IT UP

My makers were my mother and father. Again, EVIDENCE.

[TheProfiteer]

d993s...if you look at all scientific evidence the way your interpreting it then that means we cant trully believe in anything. How do you know that gravity is real if you cant feel it or touch it or hear or smell or taste it? because in some point in time a man did a study and WROTE down his findings to explain it and you believe that man yes? i have said it once and i will say it again, for you there is no such thing as enough evidence. when you die, as we all do, and stand before your maker then you will believe.

the 5 sense are what culminate to what we call perception. In order for humanity to even come up with laws of thermodynamics and causation the effects of such laws need to be perceived. So your argument right there is thrown out the window.

God, Heaven, Hell, The Holy Spirit, cannot be perceived at all, not even indirectly, so the only proof that god exists, exists in faith.

Tell me thats not true, that faith is really the only driving force behind all theological movements.

[sport_122]

the 5 sense are what culminate to what we call perception. In order for humanity to even come up with laws of thermodynamics and causation the effects of such laws need to be perceived. So your argument right there is thrown out the window.

God, Heaven, Hell, The Holy Spirit, cannot be perceived at all, not even indirectly, so the only proof that god exists, exists in faith.

Tell me thats not true, that faith is really the only driving force behind all theological movements.

That is NOT true.

You are trying to walk the middle while playing for one side. But you still are ignoring that there is reason for faith. Based on your logic, faith is the driving force behind ALL things as all things in and of themselves require us to have faith in. But if people of faith are able to see reason and logic as demonstrated in their very universe then we can draw a reasonable conclusion that the universe itself is giving off evidence to drive the theological debate.

Just like in science. there are reasons to believe in some theories that have not been tested or demonstrated, and there are reasons to not believe in some. And usually when science finds evidence that something is going on, a process is discovered, or better understood. So based on your definition science is just as much about faith as anything else.

So if the 5 senses lead to perception then when does perception ever become reality. Because beyond those senses we have nothing left to understand our universe with. Are you suggesting that our entire universe is all perception. If that is the case then you have no reason to ever ask for proof because ALL things are interpreted by men using the same five senses which (according to you) only give us perception but never any truth.

What is real, because now we are hitting on the philosophical arguments that tell us that we can only have faith in our senses to define reality, if we understand our universe to be submissive to an external laws and forces, which logically have to have existed before our universe started (as demonstrated by the expansion of our universe). This law tells us that it is safe to say that we know something is going to happen because our universe behaves with a specific set of guidelines and does not act outside of those rules. So our observations can logically be turned into knowledge. If you reduce human understanding down to the five senses then you close the door to understanding the part where those senses have to come together and generate some sort of response.

[TheProfiteer]

That is NOT true.

You are trying to walk the middle while playing for one side. But you still are ignoring that there is reason for faith. Based on your logic, faith is the driving force behind ALL things as all things in and of themselves require us to have faith in. But if people of faith are able to see reason and logic as demonstrated in their very universe then we can draw a reasonable conclusion that the universe itself is giving off evidence to drive the theological debate.

Just like in science. there are reasons to believe in some theories that have not been tested or demonstrated, and there are reasons to not believe in some. And usually when science finds evidence that something is going on, a process is discovered, or better understood. So based on your definition science is just as much about faith as anything else.

So if the 5 senses lead to perception then when does perception ever become reality. Because beyond those senses we have nothing left to understand our universe with. Are you suggesting that our entire universe is all perception. If that is the case then you have no reason to ever ask for proof because ALL things are interpreted by men using the same five senses which (according to you) only give us perception but never any truth.

What is real, because now we are hitting on the philosophical arguments that tell us that we can only have faith in our senses to define reality, if we understand our universe to be submissive to an external laws and forces, which logically have to have existed before our universe started (as demonstrated by the expansion of our universe). This law tells us that it is safe to say that we know something is going to happen because our universe behaves with a specific set of guidelines and does not act outside of those rules. So our observations can logically be turned into knowledge. If you reduce human understanding down to the five senses then you close the door to understanding the part where those senses have to come together and generate some sort of response.

Hey there man, dont go drawing conclusions on my behalf. You turned a simple comment into something unnecessarily deeper. We can have a discussion on reality, but this is not the thread for it.

I simply stated, that scientific discoveries, theorems, hypotheses, ect ect are initially derived from the perception of an occurrence. IE: Rain, a shooting star, an earthquake, a flood, birth, ect ect. So in order to logically draw a conclusion said occurrence must be observed and studied. Nothing in religion can be observed and studied, other than its detrimental effect on society and the world.

Religion, and I say this with emphasis, MODERN ORGANIZED RELIGION. Serves you a cold plate of "their truth." This is whats right, you will believe this, if not well then you burn in hell."

I say this now, and I will say it again. Christianity, Islam, and Judiasim, to a lesser extent because they are not as evangelical as the other two, are a blight to the world and are inhibiting the progress of humanity. The very nature of man, the most significant thing that separates us from animals is our thirst for knowledge, the drive to question is put in jeopardy because of religion. When we ignore the fact that we do not have the answer to where we came from, why we are here, and where we are going. We stop looking, because the teachings of philosophers of the past were bastardized and manipulated into a societal tool to maintain social cohesion, that is what we know as religion. Its a processes thousands of years old, and humanity has reached an age where the slow yet sure demise of religion is at hand. It will not happen in our life time but centuries from now religion will see its darkest days.


"Faith: not wanting to know what is true." Friedrich Nietzsche

[trini_gsr]

Hey there man, dont go drawing conclusions on my behalf. You turned a simple comment into something unnecessarily deeper. We can have a discussion on reality, but this is not the thread for it.

I simply stated, that scientific discoveries, theorems, hypotheses, ect ect are initially derived from the perception of an occurrence. IE: Rain, a shooting star, an earthquake, a flood, birth, ect ect. So in order to logically draw a conclusion said occurrence must be observed and studied. Nothing in religion can be observed and studied, other than its detrimental effect on society and the world.

Religion, and I say this with emphasis, MODERN ORGANIZED RELIGION. Serves you a cold plate of "their truth." This is whats right, you will believe this, if not well then you burn in hell."

I say this now, and I will say it again. Christianity, Islam, and Judiasim, to a lesser extent because they are not as evangelical as the other two, are a blight to the world and are inhibiting the progress of humanity. The very nature of man, the most significant thing that separates us from animals is our thirst for knowledge, the drive to question is put in jeopardy because of religion. When we ignore the fact that we do not have the answer to where we came from, why we are here, and where we are going. We stop looking, because the teachings of philosophers of the past were bastardized and manipulated into a societal tool to maintain social cohesion, that is what we know as religion. Its a processes thousands of years old, and humanity has reached an age where the slow yet sure demise of religion is at hand. It will not happen in our life time but centuries from now religion will see its darkest days.

the man has a point

sport122 is taking the discussion on a deeper level - it does boil down to the philosophical debate between materialism and idealism as far as describing our reality. i'm an idealist, by the way. but profiteer is right, that's a discussion for a different thread.

the problem i have with 'religions' is that they are too static. as we gain a better understanding of the universe around us, it's natural that our views on the supernatural/spiritual are going to change too. I believe that God is dynamic and rational, and we have the drive to discover the secrets of our universe because we were created as rational beings. But while science will give us the "how", it will never answer the question of "why". this is what spirituality is for.

i see what you're getting at, profiteer, but to say that religions are a blight to the world and inhibit progress is taking it a bit too far. religion plays a key role in stressing the importance of morality in a society - i would argue that this too is needed to create the right environment for intellectual progress, although the merits of it might not be as tangible. remember too that religion is a social construct created by the same humans who you say are thirsting for knowledge and striving for progress . it may be flawed (which one of our social constructs aren't?) but it serves its purpose.

[TheProfiteer]

the man has a point

sport122 is taking the discussion on a deeper level - it does boil down to the philosophical debate between materialism and idealism as far as describing our reality. i'm an idealist, by the way. but profiteer is right, that's a discussion for a different thread.

the problem i have with 'religions' is that they are too static. as we gain a better understanding of the universe around us, it's natural that our views on the supernatural/spiritual are going to change too. I believe that God is dynamic and rational, and we have the drive to discover the secrets of our universe because we were created as rational beings. But while science will give us the "how", it will never answer the question of "why". this is what spirituality is for.

i see what you're getting at, profiteer, but to say that religions are a blight to the world and inhibit progress is taking it a bit too far. religion plays a key role in stressing the importance of morality in a society - i would argue that this too is needed to create the right environment for intellectual progress, although the merits of it might not be as tangible. remember too that religion is a social construct created by the same humans who you say are thirsting for knowledge and striving for progress . it may be flawed (which one of our social constructs aren't?) but it serves its purpose.

no, I dont think so. You see religion drives morality through fear. "be good or, or what we define as good, or you will burn in hell"

Instead morality should be taught from a human perspective, a respect for human life as well as all the life around it. The moral teachings of religion are only enforced by the threat of hell. While societies intrepertation of morality is enforced by a set of laws and consequences, which is how it should be.

[trini_gsr]

no, I dont think so. You see religion drives morality through fear. "be good or, or what we define as good, or you will burn in hell"

Instead morality should be taught from a human perspective, a respect for human life as well as all the life around it. The moral teachings of religion are only enforced by the threat of hell. While societies intrepertation of morality is enforced by a set of laws and consequences, which is how it should be.

how is this different from the government saying "follow these laws and pay your taxes...or else you're going to JAIL"??? are they not driving obedience (aka "enforcing") through fear too?

most religions do exactly what you've mentioned...teach respect for human life and all of God's creation. and not all of them teach that there is punishment (hell) after death. not even all CHRISTIAN denominations believe in hell/torment.

[sport_122]

no, I dont think so. You see religion drives morality through fear. "be good or, or what we define as good, or you will burn in hell"

Instead morality should be taught from a human perspective, a respect for human life as well as all the life around it. The moral teachings of religion are only enforced by the threat of hell. While societies intrepertation of morality is enforced by a set of laws and consequences, which is how it should be.

It is very difficult to even start to talk about morality from the religion (or for me, the christian) perspective without talking about justice.

Morality from the human perspective does not work. This is demonstrated by justice systems all over the world. As the climate of society changes in a culture then so does the quality of its justice system along with this change is a shift in morality (look at Nazi Germany, or Stalin's Russia, southern states of America with regards to blacks and slavery, or Rome etc). So what happens when you want to base morality on the human perspective is that you get an ever changing system of rules. This eliminates the certainty aspect of law and leaves it open to corrupt interpretation. This is a part of the humanistic approach and has lead to some of the most horrible times in our recent history. This mentality has infiltrated the faith systems of our world and is what is usually the first thing that comes to mind when people discuss the legalistic nature of the Christian faith.

And all systems drive morality the same way. But what you call fear can be attributed to the idea of some of our hedonistic traits and the idea of a deterrent. This is not a manmade construct. We learned to do this because it is what God does with us. To demonstrate to us that He is Just and just as his law has not changed neither will his character. In fact, this is the very reason that we believe death comes to all men, because all men have broken the laws of an eternal God. Basically, both the hedonistic and deterrent principles tell us that people will seek out the road of less pain in order to achieve their goals of having more pleasure in life. These concepts guide justice systems around the entire world and they drive ALL concepts of morality. I believe this is for the reason I just stated, that we are acting not out of our development, but we are acting out of the fabric of our existence.

Even the very concept of justice is based off of these principles. Justice encompasses rule of law, punishment for breaking the law. Without the punishment for breaking any law, that law becomes void and is ignored. There is no punishment, there is no pain or nothing bad that will happen if you break the law, so you just do what you want to do. At that point there is NO justice and NO law. The opposite is what you see heavily demonstrated in religions, not because its about fear but because the laws are not subject to change as the ones made by humans. This is one of the reasons why I would argue that God is not dynamic, but he is very static. I would also argue that this is the problem that many in our society have with him, that his law is not subject to the same types of free passes as our court systems. And as we change, we really want our decline in morality to be supported by all, but the people who subscribe to a spiritual, eternal law cannot rightly make these changes. We cannot rightly say that we agree with homosexuality, we cannot say we agree with abortion, we cannot say we agree with many things because we believe the moral code of our universe is violated by these things.