Could Jesus have been an alien?

[TheProfiteer]

It is very difficult to even start to talk about morality from the religion (or for me, the christian) perspective without talking about justice.

Morality from the human perspective does not work. This is demonstrated by justice systems all over the world. As the climate of society changes in a culture then so does the quality of its justice system along with this change is a shift in morality (look at Nazi Germany, or Stalin's Russia, southern states of America with regards to blacks and slavery, or Rome etc). So what happens when you want to base morality on the human perspective is that you get an ever changing system of rules. This eliminates the certainty aspect of law and leaves it open to corrupt interpretation. This is a part of the humanistic approach and has lead to some of the most horrible times in our recent history. This mentality has infiltrated the faith systems of our world and is what is usually the first thing that comes to mind when people discuss the legalistic nature of the Christian faith.

And all systems drive morality the same way. But what you call fear can be attributed to the idea of some of our hedonistic traits and the idea of a deterrent. This is not a manmade construct. We learned to do this because it is what God does with us. To demonstrate to us that He is Just and just as his law has not changed neither will his character. In fact, this is the very reason that we believe death comes to all men, because all men have broken the laws of an eternal God. Basically, both the hedonistic and deterrent principles tell us that people will seek out the road of less pain in order to achieve their goals of having more pleasure in life. These concepts guide justice systems around the entire world and they drive ALL concepts of morality. I believe this is for the reason I just stated, that we are acting not out of our development, but we are acting out of the fabric of our existence.

Even the very concept of justice is based off of these principles. Justice encompasses rule of law, punishment for breaking the law. Without the punishment for breaking any law, that law becomes void and is ignored. There is no punishment, there is no pain or nothing bad that will happen if you break the law, so you just do what you want to do. At that point there is NO justice and NO law. The opposite is what you see heavily demonstrated in religions, not because its about fear but because the laws are not subject to change as the ones made by humans. This is one of the reasons why I would argue that God is not dynamic, but he is very static. I would also argue that this is the problem that many in our society have with him, that his law is not subject to the same types of free passes as our court systems. And as we change, we really want our decline in morality to be supported by all, but the people who subscribe to a spiritual, eternal law cannot rightly make these changes. We cannot rightly say that we agree with homosexuality, we cannot say we agree with abortion, we cannot say we agree with many things because we believe the moral code of our universe is violated by these things.

you see the problem with your logic is this

to you the hierarchy of the universe follows like this.

God----->Man-------->Everything else.

You are putting your self and humanity so close to god, when in reality you have no idea what God is.

[trini_gsr]

you see the problem with your logic is this

to you the hierarchy of the universe follows like this.

God----->Man-------->Everything else.

You are putting your self and humanity so close to god, when in reality you have no idea what God is.

If you start with the assumption (like I do) that God is a rational being, then it follows that we as humans and any other beings out there with cognition "think" in the same rational manner that he does. When you look at it, humans can do everything (miracles aside) that the Bible says God can do - from the range of emotions, to creating and destroying. it's really just a matter of what scale we're talking about. hence why it is said that God made us in his image.

as far as sport's comment on God being static. i disagree. God is perfect so his RULES are static, just like the natural laws that govern the universe are static and unchanging. But the universe is changing every single moment. Change is one of the few constants in the universe, it permeates down to our everyday lives. So to say that God is static when the universe he created and everything in it is dynamic doesn't make sense to me. God has to be dynamic because his creation is dynamic. Even the very act of God creating a universe to begin with implies change (from God existing as a singular unity -> God+universe+everything in it).

[sport_122]

as far as sport's comment on God being static. i disagree. God is perfect so his RULES are static, just like the natural laws that govern the universe are static and unchanging. But the universe is changing every single moment. Change is one of the few constants in the universe, it permeates down to our everyday lives. So to say that God is static when the universe he created and everything in it is dynamic doesn't make sense to me. God has to be dynamic because his creation is dynamic. Even the very act of God creating a universe to begin with implies change (from God existing as a singular unity -> God+universe+everything in it).

The very nature of God in his transcendent state would have to be such that it is not that HE is changing as much as our understanding of who He is changes as he is revealed to us. This is also demonstrated in the part of God's character that is able to function outside of time.

It is a very far stretch to say that because the universe is changing or is in motion that God has to also be dynamic in the same sense. This is a false correlation. Also, to say that God is dynamic that would also mean the he is subject to change based on responses and a developing understanding of our universe as these are the things that develop change in all things that we know of now. So basically how could you explain that view of God, where he is changing and responsive to the universe, even though his character is timeless, all knowing and all powerful. I just can't see where there is room for a "developing" God.

As a matter of fact I believe this characteristic of God also lends validity to his existence. We cannot argue a transcendent God as the originator of all things if we also believe that he is constantly learning, changing, and that he may be different tomorrow. If this is the character of God then we would have problems because even the very Bible or our very world that we use to define him would be subject to being outdated and unreliable.

However, with my world view, I do see how God who is beyond our understanding is not changing and has always been the same, is revealing himself to us and as we learn about him we are having to alter our perspective and way of thinking to reflect that understanding. I cannot find an instance in my life, in the Bible, in other pieces of writings about God, that would make me think that God is ever changing and developing. Our understanding of him does not define him. Our understanding of him tells us how we interact with him, but it does not tell us exactly who he is.

Philosophically these cannot be characteristics of a transcendent God who is omniscient, omnipresent, and sovereign in the universe. Could you tell me what about Gods character is different now than it was 2000 years ago, or at the point of creation, or what we expect to be different about him 100 years from now? Maybe that would help me understand your view.

Lastly, I think the reason many people would say that God is changing is because somehow we hope to be able to put him in our personal bubbles. In our attempts to know him, we must be careful about limiting him to our own understanding, which we already know is limited to say the least.

you see the problem with your logic is this

to you the hierarchy of the universe follows like this.

God----->Man-------->Everything else.

You are putting your self and humanity so close to god, when in reality you have no idea what God is.

Well even in your statement you put Everything else close to man. As if we have a clue what everything else is, but we don't. In fact, which of any of these three topics do you think we really understand? We don't understand God, ourselves, or anything else. We can only use our logic so far as God has revealed himself to us.

and speaking of logic, if we don't put a transcendent mind first then I am still puzzled how we could assume that anything is logical. At that point what defines logic? Without a grounded worldview, logic is no more valuable to man than the rocks in the dirt because it would only be about the individual otherwise and there would be no grounds for anyone to test and affirm their logic.

[trini_gsr]

duplicate...

[trini_gsr]

The very nature of God in his transcendent state would have to be such that it is not that HE is changing as much as our understanding of who He is changes as he is revealed to us. This is also demonstrated in the part of God's character that is able to function outside of time.

i agree that our understanding of God changes as we grow as a species. i'm with you here...

It is a very far stretch to say that because the universe is changing or is in motion that God has to also be dynamic in the same sense. This is a false correlation. Also, to say that God is dynamic that would also mean the he is subject to change based on responses and a developing understanding of our universe as these are the things that develop change in all things that we know of now. So basically how could you explain that view of God, where he is changing and responsive to the universe, even though his character is timeless, all knowing and all powerful. I just can't see where there is room for a "developing" God.

As a matter of fact I believe this characteristic of God also lends validity to his existence. We cannot argue a transcendent God as the originator of all things if we also believe that he is constantly learning, changing, and that he may be different tomorrow. If this is the character of God then we would have problems because even the very Bible or our very world that we use to define him would be subject to being outdated and unreliable.

now you're putting words in my mouth i never said God was constantly learning or even that he might be 'different'. and i certainly don't think that God changes as our understanding of him evolves. i think you're misunderstanding what i mean when i say God is dynamic.

consider this. even though our universe is constantly changing, the laws that govern it remain the same. we can reliably predict the behavior of bodies in motion, know how fast light travels, etc. as we discover more about our universe, we might revise our understanding, but those laws remain timeless. you could say the CHARACTER of the universe remains the same despite the constant changes.

i look at God in the same manner. His CHARACTER remains the same, even as more and more of it is revealed to us as we continue to grow and learn as a species. So in that sense God is static and the rules He has put forth to define morality, etc are timeless. His character is definitely unchanging.

but that doesn't preclude God from being dynamic, because the universe and everything in it is an expression of, a part of who and what God is. the divine (but finite) "breath of life" that exists in all of us and connects us to God changes and grows as we trod through the journey we call life. so as we experience, in a sense, God "experiences" too. it doesn't change WHO God is at all, but i believe He finds joy in this. much like we find joy in watching our children grow into adults, but that doesn't mean it has to change the nature of who WE are individually.

this explains (to me at least) why the Bible says God finds joy in faithful beings, and why sin makes God sad, etc. it may even give us insight into one of the grand purposes of creation in general. i have more opinions on this but i don't want to go off too far on a tangent.

i appreciate that everyone might not see it the way i do, so we'll may have to agree to disagree on this one . i hope that by sharing you can come away with something positive, i know i have from your posts. some reps are coming your way...

[sport_122]

i agree that our understanding of God changes as we grow as a species. i'm with you here...




now you're putting words in my mouth i never said God was constantly learning or even that he might be 'different'. and i certainly don't think that God changes as our understanding of him evolves. i think you're misunderstanding what i mean when i say God is dynamic.

consider this. even though our universe is constantly changing, the laws that govern it remain the same. we can reliably predict the behavior of bodies in motion, know how fast light travels, etc. as we discover more about our universe, we might revise our understanding, but those laws remain timeless. you could say the CHARACTER of the universe remains the same despite the constant changes.

i look at God in the same manner. His CHARACTER remains the same, even as more and more of it is revealed to us as we continue to grow and learn as a species. So in that sense God is static and the rules He has put forth to define morality, etc are timeless. His character is definitely unchanging.

but that doesn't preclude God from being dynamic, because the universe and everything in it is an expression of, a part of who and what God is. the divine (but finite) "breath of life" that exists in all of us and connects us to God changes and grows as we trod through the journey we call life. so as we experience, in a sense, God "experiences" too. it doesn't change WHO God is at all, but i believe He finds joy in this. much like we find joy in watching our children grow into adults, but that doesn't mean it has to change the nature of who WE are individually.

this explains (to me at least) why the Bible says God finds joy in faithful beings, and why sin makes God sad, etc. it may even give us insight into one of the grand purposes of creation in general. i have more opinions on this but i don't want to go off too far on a tangent.

i appreciate that everyone might not see it the way i do, so we'll may have to agree to disagree on this one . i hope that by sharing you can come away with something positive, i know i have from your posts. some reps are coming your way...

Okay, I can see your perspective now. I just didnt understand it before because I view the term dynamic in a much different way. Thanks for elaborating. I don't think we are that different, maybe just the way we understand the words.

I guess for me I would describe it more as the side of God that is intimate with us on our level with the understanding of where we are as we go through our own growth in developing our understanding of who He is as it has been revealed. For instance, God knows that we don't know everything about Him and everything about our universe which is why he does not always command us to respond to those things that are beyond what he has given us the ability to understand.