I'm an Ak man myself. Lets hear what IA likes.
Ok, this should get this section going AR-15 VS AK-47
I'm an Ak man myself. Lets hear what IA likes.
ar-15.
more accurate than the ak.
I'm Russian. You know my answer.
AK more reliable. Those things are like rocks
AR will give you better accuracy at 200+ yards. How many targets do you ever plan to engage at that distance? The AR-15 jams way too often and is too picky when it comes to ammo/cleaning. The ak will eat up anything you feed it. The newer Ak variants are more accurate and can also be chambered in 7.62x39, 5.45x39, and 5.56.Originally Posted by Tran
Last edited by Problematik; 03-27-2009 at 10:40 AM.
AR it looks cooler
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voted ak... reason being is simply reliabilty and full auto compared to three round burst on military issued weapon. bigger round as well
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both.
But, I voted AK for one reason, and one reason only: knockdown power. For the record, I want ZERO of the shot placement BS. Shot for shot, a 7.62 is tearing shit up and the 5.56 is just cutting a nice little hole.
That is the only argument for the AR, but it isn't even valid..
At 30 yards, I can shoot the head of the silhouette at least 29 times out of my 30rd mag (at very worst).. But I usually do it 30/30.. The accuracy argument is really weak because the difference can only be seen after 150+ yards..
Now, when am I going to need to shoot further than that? Most combat, especially in gorilla warfare, is done well within that range..
The AR will not shoot if it gets near sand, water, etc.. My AK will shoot, every time I pull my trigger.. Whether I am in water, in a sand storm, crawling in mud, and etc.. The same cannot be said about the AR..
The AK also performs way better than the AR in all aspects in full auto..
AK-47 #1
Last edited by Frög; 03-16-2009 at 01:19 AM.
Can't argue with that!
If you watch the video I posted, at 7min, they mention how ugly the AK is..
But I like the way it looks..
Last edited by Frög; 03-16-2009 at 01:02 AM.
since its shtf scenario i would say its a tie, maybe leaning towards AR due to the possibility of more ammo being available (police stations, military bases ect).
Both are great weapons, but the AR in general is better. Which is better in SHFT???? Which ever you can get parts and ammo for. Thats why everyone should own both ...even though i dont
The ultimate SHTF (non-zombie) is the handgun of course! High cap, with tons of spare mags. AND CONCEALABLE!!!!!!!!!!
"The 1911 is a collection of subsystems that must work together. Each part must be prepared and fit properly not only in and of itself, but also with regard to the other parts with which it must operate for the gun to function and appear as desired."
Gas system of an AK, the rest AR.
Enough said.
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I have both and like both. It really is a toss up for me in the SHTF general scenario. I'm accurate with both, but the AR is more manueverable (sp?) IMO.
The 7.62 steel core is a punch load, but 5.56 can be had hot too. In trajectory, the AR would likely get the nod. Capacity, the AR would get the nod only because the mags take up less space than banana AK's would. Reliability, the nod would likely go to the AK simply because it will shoot a rock if you file it down to fit in the barrel. Most modern AR's are more than reliable, but even cheapo AK copies are reliable, so the nod in that category would likely go to the AK. Accessories, the clear winner is the AR since you can get some nice rails and have USEFUL accessories mounted and you would be covered in 99% of scenarios.
It's a toss up for me.
That's why you should own BOTH.....
okokok
Chuck Norris with an AK
versus
Jack Bauer with an AR
gogogogogo
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Chuck, all day.
AK, all day.
Ur crazy. Bauer all the way. Chuck is a joke (yes i said it)!!!!!!!
"The 1911 is a collection of subsystems that must work together. Each part must be prepared and fit properly not only in and of itself, but also with regard to the other parts with which it must operate for the gun to function and appear as desired."
i like both but like vteckidd said the ar does look cooler and has many fun attachments like the 40mm grenade launcher (autrey's armory has one) but i like the ak just bc what frog said it is more reliable.... i want both but dont have the extra money for both lol
NO NWS
You know, if you look hard enough, you get a 40mm launcher for an AK, :boobies: too. With all the aftermarket stocks and accessories available these days, anything you can put on an AR, you can put on an AK.
I, like Jaime, personally own both (looking for pics on old comp/PB account to post) and wouldn't trade either one. My AR is a little finky when it comes to ammo, though, andd Failure to Feeds are a little too common for me to consider it a first choice in a SHTF scenario, when my ammo choices would be eventually limited to whatever i can scavenge.
x2
this is a 74, but the 47 has the same:
nice, I was about to look for a pic of a tac'd out AK, but you did the leg work for mex2
this is a 74, but the 47 has the same:
a full review of the ar vs ak was a couple months ago in Combat Tactics magazine. The AR won hands down. 95% of people just vote on what they hear on the internet, and read on gun forums.
Both are great guns and have thier own purpose and place but the AR is the superior weapon, no doubt. Now if you ask which is the best for YOU and YOUR purpose, thats a WHOLE NOTHER TOPIC.
But the OP didnt ask a question that everyone is giving him answers for. He asked which is the better SHTF gun, and my answer remains which ever one you can get parts and ammo for.
"The 1911 is a collection of subsystems that must work together. Each part must be prepared and fit properly not only in and of itself, but also with regard to the other parts with which it must operate for the gun to function and appear as desired."
I have talked to many people that have owned AR's and switched to AK.. So many issues with jamming, and common multiple fires with one pull of the trigger..
The AK is a superior weapon, that cannot be argued.. Combat tactics magazine is bias for the AR if they said it was better.. It out performs the AR in every aspect except accuracy but only past 150+ yards.. The AK variants with the 5.45 is MORE accurate that the AR..
Also talking to marines who were in the gulf war, they told me about horror stories about the AR in desserts.. In windy situations, the AR was so unreliable that they had to put their rifle in trash bags to avoid any sand getting in it.. Only when they were getting shot at, they would open the bag and STILL couldn't shoot a full clip because it would jam..
Last time I was at the range, some guy had an AR.. Every pull of the trigger, it would shoot 3 and jam.. His gun was barely used.. His buddy told me that the happiest two days of his life where when he bought an AR and when he sold it..
Now, ammo for the AK is so hard to find(for the 7.62), and in a SHFT situation, I would like an AR.. But for combat, in a war, AK..
I like AR's, I would love to have one, but to say it is a superior weapon? I remember watching a documentary where designers and engineers of the AR where admitting that the AK was a better weapon overall.. The simplicity and ruggedness of the AK is what makes is superior..
Here, /discussion:
http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=h08NtNOLYuo
AK is also FAR superior in AUTO..
AK, Hands down..
Last edited by Frög; 03-19-2009 at 11:10 PM.
AHHH its coming! lol
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Frög, Danny
That video seemed pretty biased. I know gun magazines are 100% biased. But i will summerize the article i mentioned. They compared the two guns on 10 topics, one point for each topic for the winner. Here ya go. let me know what you think. My opinions stands: both weapons have a place and purpose and they dont neccesarily overlap.
RECEIVER VERSATILITY: 1point AR 1 point AK
BUTTSTOCK ERGONOMICS: AR 1 point
OPTICAL SIGHT SUITABILITY: AR 1 point
RAIL ACCESSORY INTERFACE: AR 1 point
STANDARD BALLISTICS: AK 1 point
COMBAT RELIABILITY: AK 1 point
LONG RANGE ACCURACY: AR 1 point
GRENADE LAUCHING: AR 1 point
ERGONOMIC FACTORS: AR 1 point
REMEDIAL ACTION DRILLS: AR 1 point AK 1 point
FINAL SCORE: 8 to 4, AR Winner.
I found these hard to argue with. If you have some more topics to add we can debate those but these 10 are basically set in stone and i think most would agree to that.
"The 1911 is a collection of subsystems that must work together. Each part must be prepared and fit properly not only in and of itself, but also with regard to the other parts with which it must operate for the gun to function and appear as desired."
Exactly why I started this thread. Lol
NEW SCORE 8 to 5
Looks like we should give the AK another point (tieing in the Grenade catagory). Even though i have yet to see any insurgents running around with this varient.. blehhh
QUOTE:
AK-74M. The latest variant, issued to the Russian troops since early 1990s. Key differences from the earlier AK-74 rifles are the side-folding plastic buttstock and the scope mounting rail on the left side of the receiver.
AK-74M with GP-30 40mm grenade launcher installed
"The 1911 is a collection of subsystems that must work together. Each part must be prepared and fit properly not only in and of itself, but also with regard to the other parts with which it must operate for the gun to function and appear as desired."
Come on fooo... its bed time
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Danny, Frög
"The 1911 is a collection of subsystems that must work together. Each part must be prepared and fit properly not only in and of itself, but also with regard to the other parts with which it must operate for the gun to function and appear as desired."
Agreed, you can't argue with those being true.. But those don't mean anything! Stock ergonomics? Who cares?
The red ones really don't matter in combat.. The fact that they added those comparing factors was to give points to the AR and an unfair advantage.. I mean, why didn't they add EASE OF DISASSEMBLY(sp?), DURABILITY/RUGGEDNESS, MAINTENANCE etc.. Things that matter! If they did, the AK would be the winner..
Also, isn't OPTICAL SIGHT SUITABILITY an added BS criteria when they already gave a point for the AR for RAIL ACCESSORY INTERFACE? That comes hand and hand! Thats a free point for the AR!?!?!
The Orange ones are also somewhat stupid.. In combat, most of it is done well within 200 yards which accuracy is the same.. Beyond that, use a sniper.. The AK's accuracy is more than enough.. Grenade launching? Sure, but we are comparing the rifle!
About the video, I don't see how it can be biased.. Some fact can be, but the main message of comparing the AR and the AK isn't.. The co-designer is saying HIS gun that he designed isn't as good as the AK.. Shouldn't he be biased the other way?
Edit:
Ahh I think I might of missed that..
Last edited by Frög; 03-20-2009 at 12:08 AM.
I tried! But you can take your time, I have work until 6am, so I got all night!Come on fooo... its bed time
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Danny, Frög
The people carrying them are all different sizes. You really going to argue that an adjustable stock is not a factor of combat effectivness? I would tend to think most CQB guys would say it helps alot, since they are all different sizes.
I may be willing to take a half point vs a full point for this one.
I disagree that they dont matter, but agree that the should have added maintenance in there. Durability goes under reliability in my opinion.The red ones really don't matter in combat.. The fact that they added those comparing factors was to give points to the AR and an unfair advantage.. I mean, why didn't they add EASE OF DISASSEMBLY(sp?), DURABILITY/RUGGEDNESS, MAINTENANCE etc.. Things that matter! If they did, the AK would be the winner..
Disagree. Our rail system is seperate from the standard issue top rail for optics. Our rails let mounting and dismounting (just as easily) tac lights, ir lasers and a host of other things that give us an INCREDIBLE advantage, and advantage that is worth at LEAST 3 points lol. Optics is one thing, but accesories that make locating, IDing a potential threat and then sharing that information with others is a whole seperate ball game. IMO of course.Also, isn't OPTICAL SIGHT SUITABILITY an added BS criteria when they already gave a point for the AR for RAIL ACCESSORY INTERFACE? That comes hand and hand! Thats a free point for the AR!?!?!
agreed somewhat.The Orange ones are also somewhat stupid.. In combat, most of it is done well within 200 yards which accuracy is the same.. Beyond that, use a sniper.. The AK's accuracy is more than enough.. Grenade launching? Sure, but we are comparing the rifle!
He is just mad becuase his last name is sullivan. Not Stoner. Thats sad he is admitting that a Russian tank commander that had no engineering education out engineered him. I think Mr Sullivan and his son just wanted some attentionAbout the video, I don't see how it can be biased.. Some fact can be, but the main message of comparing the AR and the AK isn't.. The co-designer is saying HIS gun that he designed isn't as good as the AK.. Shouldn't he be biased the other way?
ok dammit, im biased. im going to bed. AR is still better for our military and the AK is still better for those miltarys/terrorists who cant afford ARs.
Ok u want the real winner here? HK416, no stfu
"The 1911 is a collection of subsystems that must work together. Each part must be prepared and fit properly not only in and of itself, but also with regard to the other parts with which it must operate for the gun to function and appear as desired."
Good points.. Glad we can have a civilized debate!The people carrying them are all different sizes. You really going to argue that an adjustable stock is not a factor of combat effectivness? I would tend to think most CQB guys would say it helps alot, since they are all different sizes.
I may be willing to take a half point vs a full point for this one.
I disagree that they dont matter, but agree that the should have added maintenance in there. Durability goes under reliability in my opinion.
Disagree. Our rail system is seperate from the standard issue top rail for optics. Our rails let mounting and dismounting (just as easily) tac lights, ir lasers and a host of other things that give us an INCREDIBLE advantage, and advantage that is worth at LEAST 3 points lol. Optics is one thing, but accesories that make locating, IDing a potential threat and then sharing that information with others is a whole seperate ball game. IMO of course.
agreed somewhat.
He is just mad becuase his last name is sullivan. Not Stoner. Thats sad he is admitting that a Russian tank commander that had no engineering education out engineered him. I think Mr Sullivan and his son just wanted some attention
ok dammit, im biased. im going to bed. AR is still better for our military and the AK is still better for those miltarys/terrorists who cant afford ARs.
Ok u want the real winner here? HK416, no stfu
I do want to say that to me, Reliability isn't the same as Durability..
Article I found interesting. Nuances between the two:
One measure of durability is represented by the duration of product ownership. Reliability, on the other hand, represents interruptions in usage during that ownership. The ownership of any product or system cannot be enjoyed if it is continually interrupted and the desired functions lost for even a brief time. This means reliability takes precedence over durability even though both are desired in most applications.
Not saying that the AK is more durable, I would think so but I don't know for sure..
Good points.. Glad we can have a civilized debate!
I do want to say that to me, Reliability isn't the same as Durability..
Article I found interesting. Nuances between the two:
One measure of durability is represented by the duration of product ownership. Reliability, on the other hand, represents interruptions in usage during that ownership. The ownership of any product or system cannot be enjoyed if it is continually interrupted and the desired functions lost for even a brief time. This means reliability takes precedence over durability even though both are desired in most applications.
Not saying that the AK is more durable, I would think so but I don't know for sure..
good point on the durability vs reliability (i forgot about that topic in my operations managment course lol).
I would say they are both durable considering thier intended uses. Which one would be more durable if put in a dirt hole for 20 years? I think we know the answer for that. But i would say for combat purposes they are both pretty dang durable.. But then again i havent gone to war with either.
"The 1911 is a collection of subsystems that must work together. Each part must be prepared and fit properly not only in and of itself, but also with regard to the other parts with which it must operate for the gun to function and appear as desired."
This thread really interests me, not for arguments sake but more of WHY lol.
I think that tac'd out ARs and AKs are kind of like a honda with a body kit. 99% of people have them soley to floss with. IF someone breaks into your home, who thinks to grab their tactical AK, unfold the stock, blah blah. I think i'll grab my .45 or 9mm.
That being said, i love the rifles and have a Colt ar-15. Ive used the rifle to shoot 100 & 300yd matches. I don't have a folding stock or laser sights or even a grenade launcher.
Your sounding pretty close minded. Sure, alot of people build thier guns with all kinds of mall ninja shit on them. But then there are tons of people that build them with the basics: aimpoints, tac latch, sling and a vert grip and then train with them like crazy. Just look at the training offered by Bob Rodger and the like, there are waiting lists for it. Point is there are the car show people and there are the people who take thier cars to track and beat the hell outa their cars and themselves. You seem to be forgetting about the second group.
And i am not sure where you assumed people use ar's as their HD guns, i would say that's largely a false assumption.
"The 1911 is a collection of subsystems that must work together. Each part must be prepared and fit properly not only in and of itself, but also with regard to the other parts with which it must operate for the gun to function and appear as desired."
I can see your point, and I haven't forgotten about the second group. I just happen to believe that Group #1 (aka the flossers) grossly outnumber the amount of legitimate shooters. Not necessarily here, but ive heard several people talk mindlessly about buying an assault rifle for home defense which is why i said that.
ok ill agree there. Your first post just came across like we were all getting thrown into the mall ninja/ricer group just because we own an ar or ak, at least that was the impression i got.
Yes those who speak of using thier ar as home defense is mindless mostly. Allthough i wouldnt hesitate to grab my ar if for some reason my handgun wasnt around.
That kind of goes with those people that say "my pistol is for fighting my way back to my AR". Although macho sounding, its total BS in 99.999% of civilian cases
"The 1911 is a collection of subsystems that must work together. Each part must be prepared and fit properly not only in and of itself, but also with regard to the other parts with which it must operate for the gun to function and appear as desired."
Ah well i wasn't trying to lump everyone into that category. Sorry if i came across that way. Its just aggravating every time i try to have an intelligent conversation with someone about guns and all they can ramble on about is modifying/buying an AK or AR yet they don't know the first thing about gun handling safety or even a proper stance. They are often times more of a catch phrase to the ignorant rather than a respected gun.
know the feeling. i prefer to spend money on training rather than "upgrades" to my guns. I dont claim to be some sort of tactical wizard or anything, but I do enjoy learning the proper techniques more than i enjoy telling people which guns I own. Id assume go to a 3 day class for a grand, rather than buy a new gun as the skills are farrrr more valuable than the gun itself.
green, i cant remember... your mil or leo arnt you?
Last edited by Danny; 03-22-2009 at 07:30 PM.
"The 1911 is a collection of subsystems that must work together. Each part must be prepared and fit properly not only in and of itself, but also with regard to the other parts with which it must operate for the gun to function and appear as desired."
Actually neither. My dad was a competitive shooter for many years and so ive been exposed to guns my entire life.
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