Religion - Join in the fun!

[stillaneon]

Okay, who here is a member of a religious institution? Who believes in the Judaic-Christian-Muslim model of God, or a higher being who has a direct personal relationship with humans? Answer me these questions;

Do you believe in the periodic table of elements?
Do you believe in Evolution?
Do you believe in the Big Bang Theory?
Do you believe in the Universe?

If you've answered no to any of the questions above with any sort of decisiveness than I don't believe you're worthwhile.

If you've answered yes to the questions than think about this:

You believe this God created us through a series of highly elaborate near impossibly random series of events?

He created a fabric of space-time on which a singular element managed to concentrate enough to create a massive explosion and from this developed a hundred other elements and the interaction between those elements formed millions of galaxies which each contained thousands of solar systems which contained millions of suns each with several planets rotating around it's gravitational pull and on one of these miniscule planets there was an ideal amount of water and oxygen to sustain life.

And on this miniscule planet some bacteria formed and that bacteria adapted to it's environment and manifested into various forms, one of which had an ancestral link to human beings then through tens of thousands of years of evolution it transformed into the modern human being.

This god that created that highly elaborate complex series of events which incidentally produced some life on a tiny little planet in a tiny little solar system in one of billions of galaxies... This god cares about us? He created us in his image?

Does that not seem a little far-fetched to you? How can you honestly say you believe in the idea of a personal god who's managed to transcend conventional physics to create an ethereal alternate universe for us to exist in and say you also believe in or understand fundamental scientific concepts? They both logically contradict.

Alex, I will play Devil's advocate here.

I am an Atheist. But I would never try to push my beliefs on anyone. And I expect the same respect.

But:

Yes, I believe in the periodic table, evolution, Big Bang and the Universe.


Big bang says nothing about the universe being in one element. In fact some theorist suggest that it could have been the size of an egg or even bigger.

It's not all farfetched to think that it could have happened. Technically, a black hole's gravity is strong enough to condense major amounts of mass into the size of a needle head; so what's to say that all that mass wasn't finally released somewhere.


Like I previously stated, I don't believe in God but for arguments sake let's say I do. You ask,"You believe this God created us through a series of highly elaborate near impossibly random series of events?"

What's so elaborate? God created the world in the order it would have had to be created scientifically. Light, atmosphere, land, water and flying animals, and then mammals. And while it says 6 days, how long was a day for someone who wasn't on the earth and dealt with revolution? There were people who lived for 900 years but the standard calendar wasn't invented then.


Evolution is pretty much standard. Maybe not the way that you are referring to it but everything evolves.

Evolution is a fancy name for adaptation. Fish in caves evolved to not being born with eyes, because they had no need for them. Virus' become immune to vaccines every year, and even humans adapt to their surroundings.

To say that you contradict yourself for being a Christian and believing in evolution is not correct.


You say on one of the planets had enough oxygen and water to sustain life. How do you know it was just one? It's been proven that the was water on mars, and that at one time, Mars may have been able to sustain life. But like you said, millions of planets out there. Are you really naive enough to think that only on planet can sustain life? And we only classify life by what lives here. But there may be another life form that does not need what we need to survive.


Back to evolution. You are asking a Christian, who, for the most part do not take part in Dawin's theories of evolution, to argue that a micro-organism started it all. Most Christians practice creationism, which states that god made man from the ground. So, there isn't really a way to argue that point as a christian.


And after all the circles in your post, can you honestly say that you don't believe in a higher power? That question is just as elborate and thought out as yours. The question is, WHY WOULDN'T A GREATER POWER KNOW ENOUGH TO COVER ALL THE BASES IF HE WAS GOING TO MAKE AN INTRACATE UNIVERSE? You post for the entertainment of "putting Christians' in their place" but you haven't really asked anything that would prove Christianity wrong.

Yes, it is feasible that if there is a higher power, he could do this. And yes, if he wanted to choose this planet out of the millions/trillions of other planets, that is his prerogative. And furthermore, who are you to question the decisions of something so almighty that is can be everywhere and no where at the same time?

No matter how farfetched it sounds to you or I, there are people who believe it whole heartedly.

Unfortunately, I envy them. I wish I could be so brainless to believe something that there is no proof besides for a book written by men, and translated by even more men over the course of thousands of years. I wish I could find the pure and blind faith to never ask for proof and ask questions. But I don't. But these questions should do nothing but make any knowledged person laugh.

[Maniacc]

I am an Atheist.

I'm only responding to the things that I find interesting...

Because the majority of the stuff you posted I've known since I was in middle school.

I have a hard time with Atheism cause I think we're lacking a really good definition here. If it is simply people who do not believe in God, it needs some explanation. Does that refer to the Judeo-Christian God? Does it refer to all gods, including the Greco-Roman, Egyptian, Norse, or Celtic pantheons? Do your atheistic beliefs include every single possibility of God that has ever been conceived, including Shiva, Vishnu, or the concept of Nirvana?

If it does, then I would like to know how you gleaned that knowledge. This goes out to all the atheists here... I'm serious. How do you know for sure that there is NOTHING out there? Isn't claiming you KNOW that there is a LACK of something to claim that you know EVERYTHING that is?

For example, if I said I had a poster of Megan Fox on my bedroom wall, could you verify that I in fact, do NOT, until you come to my apartment, observe each wall, and realize that not a single square inch of wall contains such a poster? Of course not. So what gives you such a knowledge of the universe to say there is NO god or higer power out there?

I think it's quite a mighty claim to say you know for SURE that something DOES NOT exist, when it has the entire infinite universe in which to reside. Now, I not saying that in some planet out there lives some person who sees what goes on all around him and that he has powers that we just can't comprehend but to say that their is nothing out there and that all of this happened by chance is stupid. Which is why I sometimes rather not even put myself in a catagory.

Here's a question - Do atheists deny the existence of all divine beings, or just the typical ones?
By definition, it would be all. Otherwise, they would be a skeptic. Right?


Let's take the tooth fairy.
Since you haven't seen the tooth fairy, it must not exist, correct? Suppose you lose a tooth, put it under your pillow one night, and wake up the next morning to find a quarter in it's place?

Do you believe:
A. The natural order of the universe is to replace teeth with quarters.
B. Pillows have a magical power to convert teeth to quarters
C. Some external force was messing with you and you want your damn tooth back because a quarter isn't worth anything anymore!

If you cannot detect something physically, does that mean it is not real? What about the concepts of love and hate? What about all concepts? You cannot physcially measure love, does that mean that it does not exist? Especially since "God is love" in the Bible - does that mean that you really don't want to believe in love? Also, what about hate, faith, hope, justice, etc? Do they exist? What makes them real to you?
If you believe in ANY higher power, then BY YOUR OWN DEFINITION, you are not an atheist.

The absence of evidence is not the evidence of absence.

More or less my point is that unless you claim to know everything, you can't say there's DEFINITELY no god. Now, if you wanna say you don't believe in Christianity, Jesus, and Santa Clause, that's a different story. And we can argue about that all day long, with much better results.

And aside from that, just because you haven't seen, heard, or experienced any physical evidence of a god doesn't mean other people haven't. Consider the tooth fairy, if you want to use that example. We all know that's not true, and yet you have experienced evidence that it is. So why is the reverse not true? It seems like a leap of logic to say that because you haven't seen any evidence of something that in the whole wide universe it doesn't exist.

Again, I'm agnostic but I'm not going to sit here and say that we are it and there is nothing greater than us out there. Because we don't know and it's smarter to keep learning until we find the answers. Keep claiming you're an atheist - just try not to be to caught up so much in your belief that it'll leave you sounding like a dude on crack.

You say on one of the planets had enough oxygen and water to sustain life. How do you know it was just one?

You took my OP and read too deep into it. Perhaps you didn't catch the sarcasm.

And after all the circles in your post, can you honestly say that you don't believe in a higher power? That question is just as elborate and thought out as yours. The question is, WHY WOULDN'T A GREATER POWER KNOW ENOUGH TO COVER ALL THE BASES IF HE WAS GOING TO MAKE AN INTRACATE UNIVERSE? You post for the entertainment of "putting Christians' in their place" but you haven't really asked anything that would prove Christianity wrong.

I'm agnostic, son. I do believe in a higer power...

And you think I'm really trying to put Christians and religious nutcases in their place? I haven't even started and already I've won. But if you wanna see that I can I'll type down a questions for them.


Here's 1 question. Hell - does it make sense to you? Because it doesn't to me... unless the devil is actually in cahoots with god, the entire premise of hell makes no sense to me. Why would the devil punish people who don't believe in god? Shouldn't hell be some heathen paradise as a reward for sinners?

If you have an answer quote this and reply. If I get a good response I'll ask another one.

Unfortunately, I envy them. I wish I could be so brainless to believe something that there is no proof besides for a book written by men, and translated by even more men over the course of thousands of years. I wish I could find the pure and blind faith to never ask for proof and ask questions. But I don't. But these questions should do nothing but make any knowledged person laugh.

Dear God,

Thanks for muscles that contract spontaneously. And an immune system that can't tell the difference between a speck of dust and an invading army of microbes. And the dual use of the throat for eating/drinking and breathing - that's real classy. Also, thanks for the bounty of undrinkable water on this planet - that'll come in handy. And barren, lifeless deserts. And 110°F summers. And hurricanes. And random meteor strikes.

Oh and one more thing God. As our creator, I would like to give thanks on behalf of all of humanity for the following...

- For giving homo sapiens an appendix which serves no purpose other than to become infected and potentially life threatening.

- For our extremely poorly designed and vulnerable knee joints.

- For allowing the hair on our arms to stick up, providing no useful resistance to cold or wind, as it does with other animals.

- For testing us by afflicting some (including your most ardent followers) with blindness, leukemia, sickle cell anemia, bipolar disorder, autism, deafness, alzheimer's, man there are too many to list.

- For creating a world in which you knew in advance that atrocities would be committed in your name, yet have done nothing to directly (or even indirectly for that matter) to stop them.

- For allowing your followers to further the spread of AIDS and promote world overpopulation.

- For subverting the rights of women everywhere.

- For contradicting your own stories in every book written by you or directly on your behalf.

- For poisoning the minds of children, often irreparably, so that you may serve as their 'shepherd' and reducing your greatest creation to that of a mindless herd animal.

There are many more things for which I'd like to give you thanks, and I humbly beg your forgiveness for being unable to come up with them at this time.

In Jesus' name
Amen.

[stillaneon]

Here's 1 question. Hell - does it make sense to you? Because it doesn't to me... unless the devil is actually in cahoots with god, the entire premise of hell makes no sense to me. Why would the devil punish people who don't believe in god? Shouldn't hell be some heathen paradise as a reward for sinners?

If you have an answer quote this and reply. If I get a good response I'll ask another one.

Of course he is. Read Job. It says the devils strolls into Heaven talking to angels. That was his home. Satan may not be the pure evil that everyone believes. Maybe he just reminds God of the other side.

And The Devil has no say in Hell, he was cast there by God just as the unforgiven.

I'm pretty much done in this thread. I was hoping for more debate so I could get into nitty gritty. but I end up arguing for a side I don't neccesarioly believe in.


And you are correct. I can't say for a fact that God doesn't exist. I can say that I don;t believe and until I find sufficient evidence to sway me otherwise, I will remain with the beliefs I have.

[ISAtlanta300]

Here's 1 question. Hell - does it make sense to you? Because it doesn't to me... unless the devil is actually in cahoots with god, the entire premise of hell makes no sense to me. Why would the devil punish people who don't believe in god? Shouldn't hell be some heathen paradise as a reward for sinners?



This is just to answer the quesion. I'm not making any claims on my beliefs; only what I know and/or perceive on the subject at hand.


Like was said before, the premise of Hell was created by God Himself, not Satan. Satan was actually cast into Hell. Therefore, he had no control on what Hell would look like.

And the reason why the devil punish people is because we are God's creation. Remember, we were created in 'His' image, so therefore, any of us going to Hell would incite anger towards His divine creation. Since they can not harm God, they would thus put all their anger towards any lost soul who gets banished to Hell. It is a way to 'get back at God', so to speak.

Remember though, that God would rather see you in heaven than hell. It is therefore that Jesus sacrificed Himself for humanity, so that we would get eternal life. He actually feels very bad for anyone who strays to the path of damnation. But he has no control over people's actions due to our free will.

Why wouldn't the devil praise anyone for following him? Well for one, if you know the devil, you'd realize he is sometimes called the 'big deceiver'. Promising you riches on earth, but giving you damnation in Hell. It's not like it's a race that whomever gets the most souls win. Rather, it is his challenge on how many souls he can take away from God and Heaven. It is his version of 'payback', since he knows that God suffers and feels sorry for every 'child' He loses (remember, we are also referred to as "God's Children". So don't expect any praises or high-fives from the devil for following him....he is in it for his pleasure, not yours.

It is also known that the devil and God do talk to each other. I wouldn't say that they are in 'cahoots', but it is a balanced system. I believe God, being the all powerfull creator would have no problem of just doing away with Hell and evil altogether. But without evil, we would have no choice but be slaves to the good. In order to uphold the free will, there must be a good and bad. In other words, Hell needs to continue to exist for us to always have a choice.