first ever d build and i want some suggestions

[cprtyler]

ok here is my first d build and i have a few plans
on what i want to do to the car first ill give you my specs and then i would
like some feed back to know if what i am doing is going to be
ideal.


first is the motor its a d15b7 bottom end all stock with a z6
stock top end with i/h/e.

my plans:

the head
p&p
3 angle
valve job
1 up over sized on intake valves
bisi valve train including cam
2.4
venom/sk2/obx/or golden eagle intake mani
70mm throttle
body
hondata thermo gaskets
venom fuel rail and fpr
venom 660 cc
injectors
pulse star plugs-(already installed)
nology hotwires-(already installed)
msd
coil

block
bore over to 75.5 or possibly 76mm
cp 8.5:1 or 9.0:1
forged pistons
eagle h beam rods
kms block guard
polished and balanced
crank
shimed oil pump for higher pressure
light weight crank pully
12lb
light weight flywheel
stage 3 clutch
stage 2 axels

turbo
t3/t4
turbo on 19-25lbs
stainless ram horn style turbo mani
2 1/2-3" ehaust
stright piped

all hoses will be with earls piping and all hardware will
be arp
some of these things i am unsure on hince the - any possitve feed back
will be apprecatied

[Spent]

You are on the right track. We suggest you reconsider the venom injectos and size. Statistically, venom injectors are probably the worst responding and inconsistent. Instead, you may want to look into Precision, RC or Injector Dynamics 1000's. No, it's not overkill. If you are going to buy injectors, do it once. There is no reason the setup you described couldn't handle low 400's (whp) on pump gas. 1000's will simply give you the extra wiggle room needed for safety. Also, there is no reason the car shouldn't idle and drive like stock with these injectors.

Generally speaking, we suggest to keep the stock crank pulley in most cases. Anything you can do to counteract harsh harmonics caused by imbalance in the rotating assembly, however little it may be, still helps, and replacing the stock crankshaft with a lighter aftermarket one doesn't help. Same thing with the flywheel but 12lbs is actually not bad.

Stage 3 may get you by but I would bump it up to a 5. Trust me, stage 3 is not going to last for too long.


Stay away from the pulstar. Not worth it on a boosted application. Stick to NGK stock # 5791. Gap to .028".

Keep the bore on the block as small as you can, you want as much real estate as possible between the sleeves for the headgasket. Not to mention you don't want to push the stock sleeves, even with a block guard.

We would urge you to look into E85 if it's a viable option for you. It's safer and you can make the same power on less boost. But let me remind you again, you can still make low 400's reliably on pump gas. E85 is more of an added security blanket.

Torque the head to 91lbs using regular oil. Yes, this is higher than the ARP instructions. Follow arp instructions and the odds are your head will lift. Seen it before on home builds at that boost level on a decent size turbo. Add extra steps to the torque sequence as you don't want to snap these flemsy studs.

In regards to the turbo, we would suggest a 60 trim. You will have the setup and cam to support it just fine. 3" downpipe and exhaust is a must. I would double check first with k-teller that your application is available since they make excellent piping kits and are very affordable for what they are.

And last but not least, don't be afraid of 9:1. That's actually a pretty safe compression ratio.

[cprtyler]

Wow that was by far the best response iv ever got on here thanks ill keep in touch.

[joshk5145]

That was a pretty good response. Saw this on d-series.org. Good luck with the build man I've got to get mine tuned before I can enjoy it.

[Spent]

You are quite welcome. On a side note, it will probably be in your best interest to check out our sponsor section frequently for parts specials since we are distributors for many of the manufacturers referenced in your post (including Bisimoto) if you are still parts shopping, not to mention there are some D's there you would appreciate. Anything else, feel free to ask, it's what we are here for.

[cprtyler]

spent: I have some parts but im shoping for most now and will def check your stuff out, josh: thanks man alot of the responses on d series were condensending and ppl were aruging about alot of this.

[cprtyler]

Spent I do have a question about after market crank pully if its balanced at a machine shop would it b fine to use then because I dont beleive that the oem is dampend but balanced

[Spent]

Corret, OEM is not dampened at all for a couple of reasons (mainly not enough power and (stroke/rod angle) in stock form to cause an issue with torsional vibrations). But you are dealing with aftermarket now and way more power. D15 pulley is already light weight to begin with and generally speaking, aftermarket pulleys are already lighter than stock. See where I'm getting at? Yes, balancing any crank pulley, stock or aftermarket helps, but it's more than just balancing when it comes to a pulley. I know you mentioned balancing the rotating assembly. That alone will do more for the life of your bearings that any crank pulley. Main thing is, make sure it's computer balanced.

Off the top of my head, I believe you can use a D16Z6 crank pulley. D16Z6 pulleys, as I'm sure you are well aware of, are dampened from the factory. I would order a new one from Honda since the rubber on a used one generally has long lived it's purpose. This will probably be the best route for your application when it's all said and done.

[Spent]

Something else we would suggest, copper spray both sides of the head gasket. This is something we do, even on sleeved blocks and to give you an idea, my own K20 setup has over 40K miles at 600whp (pump gas) and have yet to have an issue from the motor. Clutch is a different story.

[cprtyler]

What can I do as far as making my tranny beefer I know a lsd but as far as gears I know I dont want a dog box style due to being very bad for a dd or street use but do they offer upgraded gear sets for d trannys because I cant seem to find anything on them if they do

[Spent]

There is nothing cost effective. You hear some people talk about heat treating, cryogenic treatment, etc..... All of this is a waste of money. It doesn't penetrate the metal deep enough to make a difference in a transmission.
Roll with what you have, it should last you quite a bit once you get the lsd installed. Regardless, replacements transmissions will probably cost less than treating the gears anyways.

[Formally...]

What is the plan for the car? This will help in determining what is needed. Is it for drag racing, highway pulls, fun weekend car, mountain runner, etc. What power numbers do you want and is it usable power. I would take a 275whp d series on the street over a 400whp d series.

Here are my suggestions, in my opinion.

I would go with 9.5:1 or higher compression. With only a 1.5L and if you run a big turbo you need all the help you can to spool the turbo and have usable power. Whats the point of 400whp if it is only for 1k rpm. You can do this compression or higher just fine on pump gas.

Pick a turbo for your plans. If you want 300whp then pick a turbo that can make 350whp. Don't have a 600whp turbo on a motor that can only make 400whp. Also, 60 trim is just the cut of the wheel. You can have a t28 60 trim or a BW s372 with a 60 trim. Two totally different turbos.

Airflow is critical in making big power with small motors. This is for both intake (intercooler piping, etc) and exhaust. Make sure everything is well made and smooth flowing. A good 2.5in downpipe will be enough is made right (made 565whp on 2.5in downpipe on pump gas).

Don't shim oil pump. Honda pumps make enough pressure. Even with a very small shim you will see well over 100psi at redline. Just causes more leaks. Unless you plan on running very very loose bearing clearances just run a stock pump.

Good luck with build and keep us updated.

[Spent]

What is the plan for the car? This will help in determining what is needed. Is it for drag racing, highway pulls, fun weekend car, mountain runner, etc. What power numbers do you want and is it usable power. I would take a 275whp d series on the street over a 400whp d series.

Here are my suggestions, in my opinion.

I would go with 9.5:1 or higher compression. With only a 1.5L and if you run a big turbo you need all the help you can to spool the turbo and have usable power. Whats the point of 400whp if it is only for 1k rpm. You can do this compression or higher just fine on pump gas.

Pick a turbo for your plans. If you want 300whp then pick a turbo that can make 350whp. Don't have a 600whp turbo on a motor that can only make 400whp. Also, 60 trim is just the cut of the wheel. You can have a t28 60 trim or a BW s372 with a 60 trim. Two totally different turbos.

Airflow is critical in making big power with small motors. This is for both intake (intercooler piping, etc) and exhaust. Make sure everything is well made and smooth flowing. A good 2.5in downpipe will be enough is made right (made 565whp on 2.5in downpipe on pump gas).

Don't shim oil pump. Honda pumps make enough pressure. Even with a very small shim you will see well over 100psi at redline. Just causes more leaks. Unless you plan on running very very loose bearing clearances just run a stock pump.

Good luck with build and keep us updated.

First, it's a Honda motor. They are designed to make peak power at the top end as I'm sure we can all agree on. When somebody says 400whp on a vtec motor, it's pretty obvious it's going to make 400whp at the top of it's rpm limit since power climbs steadily, granted that generally speaking, single cams (depending on the cam) will tend to level off sooner than a DOHC Vtec motor. Same thing generally applies to lower boost levels as well.............. Basically, if you want to be in the 300 whp range, from 4-5k up, you shoot for higher peak numbers. Nothing new here other that this can be worked around is some cases through the use of an electronic boost controller and boost by gear by rpm. Basically, you increase boost at the lower rpms to bring power up to your target goal, then reduce boost appropriately to maintain power level all the way to redline. Click the following link for a perfect example of this technique being used properly:
http://www.importatlanta.com/forums/...-Gas-Dyno-Tune
Assuming that the valvetrain is there, which in the case of the OP it is, this means that your comment regarding the 1k analogy holds no ground.


The following link will take you to a D16Z6 making nearly 400whp on high boost and nearly 275 whp on low boost.
http://www.importatlanta.com/forums/...-E85-Dyno-Tune
For the record, the bisi cams that the OP referenced will actually spool this turbo quicker and make more power (30-40whp) than the comp cams referenced in this link. This is only as a reference since it's a similar build. The boost by rpm function was held steadily throughout the rev range in this case instead of increasing boost at the lower end and reducing at the top end like the previous setup.

In regards to the 60 trim, don't take it out of context. The mid 50 to 60 trim range, preferably closer to 60 in order to take advantage of the Bisi cam is what makes sense. There is always play room as to what trim turbo can be used for the application. However, to even suggest a S372 is beyond illogical. They don't even make it with a 60 trim wheel. I hate to think you are being over dramatic for whatever reason and would like to think of it a simple mistake.

Sizing a turbo is not just about power but about the operating rpm range and that's usually dictated by the cam, which is usually dictated by the application. A GT30R, GT35R, or Precision 60-1 with the corresponding a/r ratio would be ideal in the OP's case.

You fail to take into account the Bisimoto 2.4 cam. Excellent turbo cam by the way. With a turbo of the specs previously mentioned, I wouldn't be surprised at all if carried 400whp past 7k and into 9K territory. Well above the 1k rpm range you mentioned.

There is no question to high numbers can be made with a smaller exhaust. I think we can all agree on that. However, the smaller the piping, the more boost has to be given to compensate for the restriction. In other words, a 3" exhaust puts less stress on the motor than a 2.5" since less boost is required to make the same power. I shouldn't have to say that, you are just as aware of this as I am.

In regards to the compression and oil pump advice, good general comments.

[Formally...]

I agree with some of what you are saying. Still would like to know what OP wants. We are both guessing on what numbers he wants to make. As for the graph you posted. That is a pretty good power curve. Would like to see it in RPM instead of speed. Also, that is a D16 not D15, makes a difference and if we are talking 400whp that is another 95whp and that is about 7-9psi more boost and that is putting that setup over 30psi. A ebay t3/t4 is not effecient that high.

The bisi cam will help and is a good choice.

As for 60 trim. I did not suggest the S372 but yes you can get it in 60 trim. Here is an example from Garrett turbos.
GT2860rs
Turbine
-Wheel: 53.85mm w/ 76 trim
-Housing: .64 or .86 ar
-Maps

Compressor
-Wheel: 60mm w/ 62 trim-Housing: .60 ar
-Maps

http://www.atpturbo.com/mm5/merchant...egory_Code=GRT

GT4718r
Turbine
-Wheel: 92.7mm w/ 82 trim
-Housing: 0.96, 1.08, 1.23, 1.39 A/R
-Maps

Compressor
-Wheel: 117.6mm exd./88.0mm ind w/ 56 trim-Housing: 0.69 A/R
-Maps

http://www.atpturbo.com/mm5/merchant...egory_Code=GRT

I am not here to fight about it I just want people to get correct information. You cant say that the 63 trim of the 28 is better then the 56 trim of the 47. If you were to call Garrett and say "I would like to order a 60 trim turbo" they will just laugh at you.

[SPOOLIN]

Take this from someone who has destroyed engines left and right to figure out what works and what doesn't.

Don't over torque your ARP heads studs and make sure to use moly lube to torque them.
Don't use the cp pistons...use Arias or JE
go for 9.5 - 10.1:1 compression ratio
Don't use Venom, use Injector Dynamics Injectors

The days of 8.x:1 compression are over...the systems we have now for tuning are detailed enough and customizable enough to not have to build grand daddy engines.

Also the question of "how much power do you/I want" is an unnecessary question......you should really always ask yourself "how fast do I want to go" and if you don't know the answer...ask that question to people that can tell you what you need to go as fast as you want to go...whether its on the street on or the track.

If you are telling someone to go out and get a 50-60 trim sized turbo, YOU REALLY DON'T KNOW WHAT YOU ARE TALKING ABOUT WITH TURBO ENGINEERING AND FLOW.

[Spent]

So dramatic. lol.

If you guys simply read a little closer, a lot of the questions are already answered for you based on the combination of parts. Common sense dictates this setup will be using a T3/T4, not a T4 turbo like the GT4271R (they don't' make a GT4217r by the way). I hate to think you guys out of all people are over dramatizing a simple subject for whatever reasons. That's not being helpful, if anything, it pollutes the thread.

Now, the ramhorm manifold he will be running will not fit a T4 turbo. Otherwise it would have to be a top mount manifold for downpipe clearance. Come on guys, you should know this by now and should have caught it if you simply read a little closer. This probably would of kept the whole 60 trim this, 60 trim conversation from ever taking place.

To directly suggest and ebay turbo on this setup in an insult. Those turbos have their role to play but as detailed and planned as this setup is, it's pretty obvious we are talking about a name brand turbo. Come on guys, let's be realistic. Someone who goes to the extent of computer balancing a setup, will not cheap out on something as important as this.

Once again, we all know there is always options in regards to what turbo can be used. In this case most anything in the mid 50 trim to a 60. Preferably closer to 60, or even a 60-1 considering the Bisi cam. It's a given it will be a t3/t4 Turbo based on the ramhorm manifold, and the a/r ratio will be decided by the power goals when the customer is ready to decide on his goals. Realistically, low 400's because of the stock sleeves and we've dealt long enough with D's to understand customers goals. This doesn't mean anyone can't take this setup to the mountains, that's why there's a low and high boost switch along with boost by gear by rpm and the ability to switch to a second tune on fly via switch chip for yet more custom settings. Although a 50 trim (t3/t4) would be better suited for the mountains, but the Bisi 2.4's is not a match for such turbo because of it's operating range. Keep in mind when someone goes to the intent to reffer to a Bisi cam by the stage, the intent of what will be involved and what rpm range will see will automatically fall into place. Again, a simply analytical thought process would revealed this information. I suppose it does help to be Bisimoto distributors since dealing with them makes it second nature to us as to what works and what doesn't with their cams.

By the way, could you be so kind to specify where exactly one can get a 60 trim S372.... preferably one that will also bolt up to the t3 flanged ramhorn, and who's downpipe will have enough clearance for this setup's downpipe, because I'm having a hard time finding one.

Right on, A D15 block is 1.5L and a D16 is 1.6L as we can all agree on. In case you missed it, the OP is running a D16Z6 head. The displacement at this level WILL NOT make a noticeable difference.

In regards to the 91lbs. There is no point in saying we've been doing this for a while AND know what works on a D and everything else. Most people that follow our work would understand this. We torque our own cars (Supra, SR20 S13, RSX-T, B16T) and certain customers by what we know for a fact will hold the head down and keep it running for (years/miles/passes)depending on the application. The fact of the matter is, any 4 cylinder motor above 375whp, arp specs are not the best. At that point it can be a hit or miss. Can arp torque specs handle more power? Sure it can but why risk it. There are reasons why some motors last 1 year 2 and other 5 years+. They didn't design the torque specs with the intent of tripling or quadrupling the stock rated power. In this particular case, probably 5x the power. Yes, ARP specs have their role to play but it's clear to us their specs only apply to a small percentage of our customer's milder builds. There are times we use moly lube for the head studs and times we use regular oil, they both obviously affect the torque specs differently. Moly lube would be 83lbs in this case, again, nothing new.

[SPOOLIN]

I torque my studs to 75 lbs with moly, i run over 30 pounds of boost and NEVER have issues. Granted we are speaking of D series here...its not THAT much different. Specs are set for a reason, ARP studs ARE VERY EASY to stretch out of spec. Hell, i wont even touch ARP in my builds anymore for anyone where I consult for a fresh build.

You sure do speak frank and act like you are somebody but i have never heard of you and have no idea who "we" is. Making cars fast is a dramatic activity. People spend thousands of dollars on metal that will break, and when it does....they usually aren't ready for it...and this is what causes people to give up, get a Lexus, and just drive cars that look clean. I've consulted with countless people on these forums about what they should get and what they should buy...most know that Ive tried just about every brand and part for building engines and turbo setups. You can save the "come on guys" approach because at this point you don't have anything to show for yourself. Im pointing out your error in advice and you are replying with all of your hidden corrections.

[Spent]

^ Way to dodge the technical side. "We" are "Top Dead Center" and perhaps you missed our sponsor section. I agree, most people are not ready for when something brakes but then again, that's part of the performance world and it's where people like me and you come into play by educating customers like you have been doing on this forum and like how we will be doing as well.

To the OP, I apologize your thread was polluted to this extent. Clearly not what I had in mind that would happen.

[cprtyler]

Hey its cool guys I like constructive critism lol, as far as what this car will be for is a dd (low boost) during week and draged on some weekends, I just want a high horsepower d to take down the track. Power goals 300-375 I hope are realistic. Thanks on the tranny advice and oil pump advice. I respect all 3 of you guys due to iv seen main streams work watched spoolin drag and read up and talked to a someone who went to tdc you all have different experinces and thats cool. Im unsure about turbos thats why I posted on here and with all u guys helping im sure ill build a great car.

[Jdm94Coupe]

you don't need a built head to make 300-375...... i just got some info from jj the other night myself that i didnt realize, and im sure all these experts already knew.

take this sol for example.

http://forums.nwp4life.com/zerothread?id=15821 .......... AND this coupe........ http://hondamarketplace.com/showthread.php?t=2888099


it's making 360whp on c16 and the coupe was making 373whp and 315wtq. if i were in your position and i had the same goals, i would keep the head stock and run hondata s300. If im not mistaken you can run dual tables for high/low octane. meaning you can run your pump gas everyday and run a switch and change to race fuel for the track. I'm sure you will make around 325-375whp on your stock head and that will save you OVER $1,000 from not running the bisi parts or having to port the head.

[cprtyler]

^^ very nice deal and I may take u up on offer pm other parts u have with prices and ill get in touch with u

[EmminoDaGreat]

higher (10:1) compression+boost+a good tuner=Power, get some.


/thread.

[Formally...]

Back on topic. To OP since you want more of a fun car that you run here and there then this is my suggestions (take it or leave it, just my opinion). I would go with a little higher compression (10:1 or so). This will give you getter throttle response for everyday driving and make the power you want with less boost. That is still a very safe compression for regular pump gas (we do even higher on b and k series). As for the turbo, I would go for something like a small a/r t3/t4 or even a straight t3 will meet the power goals. It sounds like you have a good plan going. Good luck with it. Like to see some nice d series out there.

[deondre]

had to pop some popcorn for that one,lol.

[cprtyler]

^^^ me to man lol, main stream my question with a 10:1 comp with lower boost will I still reach the 300-375 hp goals on lower boost like I wanted and use pump gas? Or would that be safer to use 9:1 or 9.5:1, I want a fun dd on the lower boost but a weekend warrior on weekends ( I live close to steele bama) and wanna have something worth taking you know on a higher boost. I want something safe fun and reliable. I know a tune is were its at but can I reach power goals on pump gas. Like spoolin said how fast do I want to go, well I want to be fast!

[scttydb411]

additional suggestions:
don't waste the $ on the fuel rail (stock can flow just fine).
don't waste the $ on adj fpr.
walbro fuel pump (obvious)
use id injectors (suggested earlier).
send the head to h22 jones to have his dad work it over ($$ well spent).
stick w/ stock sized valves.
you cam choice is good (make sure it's installed to bisi specs...seen quite a few break when over tq'd).
s300 (especially if you want to run dual maps for both pump and e85, however e85 isn't practical for daily here in atl yet) otherwise crome will be fine.
stick w/ stock ignition and gap plugs tighter...stock can support plenty of power and less likely to have issues.
ngk 7's should be fine gap down to 25-28 if you decide to run the msd or 20-23 if you keep stock (this is assuming high boost).
stock compression is mid 9's and works great, but 10 would be fine and better throttle response and more hp/lb of boost.
keep it simple and choose parts wisely and not for bling factor and you should be fine.

[EmminoDaGreat]

To answer your question, we just did a B series with 10+ compression on pump gas, making 500+.

[cprtyler]

Ok not trying to sound like a dick (cuz u can never tell how someone sounds on here) but is that relevent due to bigger displacement?

[EmminoDaGreat]

Well you where asking about compression, displacement also has an affect on compression, however I was just using as an example that you'll be ok.

[cprtyler]

^^ok really wasnt trying to sound like a dick

[EmminoDaGreat]

I know, its an acceptable question, but compression is compression, just different engines respond differently.

[EmminoDaGreat]

http://www.importatlanta.com/forums/...nd-these-parts

[cprtyler]

wow thats crazy ok but thats a a6 and y8 I have a b7 and z6 truthfully is that attainable with this combo due to me being a 1.5

[EmminoDaGreat]

You would need a lot of work, but I was just showing you what a higher compression build is capable of. I think you can do 300's pretty easily if you just do some research, and figure out whats best for YOUR budget.

[EmminoDaGreat]

Also to clear that whole debate about "trim" up, I believe Trim sizing of turbos is just a mathematical calculation of inducer/exducer sizing. (which explains how multiple turbo's can have similar trim) Hope that helps

[cprtyler]

Yeah ok thanks alot wish I had a a6 bottom end

[Jdm94Coupe]

buy a z6 bottom end. they r cheap

[cprtyler]

I found a jdm zc (is this same) some say yes others no

[drewc]

not tryin to insult anybody but im not gonna set here and say im a shop whos tuned this and that or built all these cars but from the time ive been in the game i know that 10.1 compression with forced induction can equal disaster if is not tuned to the t and is not as reliable in my opinion if u want a daily driver slash weekend car id suggest stayin in the 8-9 compression ratios to give urself more leway or reliability for a dd just my two cents now if u tune a higher comp can it work yes do people dd them with high hp yes but ur takin a higher risk by goin that route and also ive heard of people running alittle longer rods because ive heard the length of the rods put stress on the block dont know if its true

[Bacon]

not tryin to insult anybody but im not gonna set here and say im a shop whos tuned this and that or built all these cars but from the time ive been in the game i know that 10.1 compression with forced induction can equal disaster if is not tuned to the t and is not as reliable in my opinion if u want a daily driver slash weekend car id suggest stayin in the 8-9 compression ratios to give urself more leway or reliability for a dd just my two cents now if u tune a higher comp can it work yes do people dd them with high hp yes but ur takin a higher risk by goin that route and also ive heard of people running alittle longer rods because ive heard the length of the rods put stress on the block dont know if its true

10:1 comp on boost is fine and can be reliable. It's all in the tuning.