ITB's
ive been reading this webpage
http://www.homemadeturbo.com/tech_pr...itb/index.html
and ive been wondering why you would want them? do they make a considerable amount of power compared to say an aftermarket performance intake/manifold?
i mean it seems less restrictive but other than that whats the bonus?
ITB = Sexiness
<---Click it.
yeah....it does look pretty cool.... but if its only for looks im not gonna waste my time
you answered your own question...Originally Posted by SL65AMG
less restriction is the bonus - (more high end power, increased throttle response...)
although, if built improperly, ITBs will actually HINDER your cars performance... so one needs to take care in how well they design and port the runners.
-jonathan
[/URL]
Jesus Christ is my Savior
i dont know if you bothered to look at that web page but what you think of the ones he made? not bad? shitty design? shitty in general?
I will personally vouch for this statement. Very true. I've had to deal with this bullshit before, and it sucks. The runners width/length must be perfect.
A Type-R and a Type-SH.
yeah. ill be building an all motor b20/vtec later on down the road. i like the idea of ITB's but the motor is probably gonna cost 8k(including tranny) to build so i dont know if i wanna spend another 1200 for ITB's if i can get the same power for 1/2 the price w/ a normal intake man.
thanks for the help guys
Unless you're going to drop the dime on some Jenvey/TODA port matched ITBs, it's not worth it on a basic engine.
I guarantee you, with the following components on a stock Type-R, you would see more power than with bolt on TWM 50mm ITBs, not to mention for more than half the price, and with MUCH easier tuning:
-Edelbrock Performer-X intake manifold (Port matched, the "As-Is" casting is awful, there's a LOT of meet on it, it MUST be port matched to your specific application. Good thing, they're only $300 brand new. People are getting better numbers with this manifold on basic all motor builds, than ANY OTHER MANIFOLD on the market, Skunk2, Importbuilders, AEBS, etc. One test saw 16whp increase, I'll post the dynochart when I can find it.)
-Max Bore Type-R throttle body (70mm-65mm, buy a Type-R throttle body for $100-$150, and give Max Bore $100 to bore it. Awesome throttle body for all motor applications)
-3" intake tube
-BPI velocity stack
-K&N filter
I promise this setup will make more power than bolt-on ITBs, for MUCH more than half the cost, and a much cheaper tune job. ITBs are awesome, they sound great, they're baller, I've had sets before, and they're fun... But if you're looking to spend a little bit of money for more power, a nice plenum/throttle body combination is where it's at!
A Type-R and a Type-SH.
16whp just using the intake man. or with all of what you mentioned?
16whp gain is teh hawtness
The Performer X manifold is all over the place on honda-tech, and yes, that was with just the manifold itself. Aerodynamic technology has come quite a long was from where it was 5 years ago.
-jonathan
Jesus Christ is my Savior
c'mon man how much are u looking to push out of the b20? boost is the way to go baby.ITB are not my favorite unless....i can't even think of a reason...but feel free to do what u have to do. just 0.2cents buddy.
see ya 240love.
230-250 . im not gonna half ass it. Stage 4 block http://www.exospeed.com/category.php?id=144
fully built head
and maybe a turbo after that if im not happy..... and hell, ive got a crx so it wont take more than 250 to put me in the 11-12sec qtr mile range
I guess your a hella driver then LOL
hmmm
...when building an engine for NA it eventually gets to the point to where you have to go with pistons. And the only way you're going to get any kind of decent power is if you choose high compression pistons to go with a nice set of agressive cams.
Sure, go ahead and do that.I did
But after that, any kind of FI is out of the question on that block.
you should be able to tap mid to high 12s with the right setup in a CRX.
-jonathan
Jesus Christ is my Savior
For $8,000, you can build a pretty decent all motor setup... I wouldn't be as quick to shoot for 250whp though, that's a tough number to hit with a B-Series. If you had twice the money, I'd say it wouldn't be a problem.
Pretty much.16whp gain is teh hawtness
The Performer X manifold is all over the place on honda-tech, and yes, that was with just the manifold itself. Aerodynamic technology has come quite a long was from where it was 5 years ago.
-jonathan
You obviously don't know the first thing about all motor Hondas... For example, RPRacing's 230whp all motor Integra Type-R ran 11.98, in a full weight Type-R. Now imagine about 240whp all motor in a CRX.
Don't waste your money. Just come up with a block and a head, and call RLZEngineering in Concord, NC. They've built many 250-260whp all motor B-Series in the past, one for a friend of mine for his Type-R.
You're acting like that's unobtainable? 210whp would put him in the 12s, no problem. Look at what CRXs are doing with stock B18C5s, low 13s, high 12s, with about 170whp... Just do the math.
Well, keep in mind, you don't want too high of CR. Typically, with decently aggressive cams, you'd want around 11.5:1CR, no higher than 12:1CR. Example, a friend of mine dyno'd IDENTICAL Type-R engines with Skunk2 Pro-Is, with CTR pistons (12.5:1CR), and P30 pistons (11.4:1CR), and guess which setup lost 4whp due to it's CR? Yeap, the setup with CTR pistons.hmmm
...when building an engine for NA it eventually gets to the point to where you have to go with pistons. And the only way you're going to get any kind of decent power is if you choose high compression pistons to go with a nice set of agressive cams.
Sure, go ahead and do that.
But after that, any kind of FI is out of the question on that block.
you should be able to tap mid to high 12s with the right setup in a CRX.
-jonathan
Sometimes less is more, especially with all motor Hondas.
Last edited by ZedEx; 08-31-2007 at 10:18 AM.
A Type-R and a Type-SH.
hmm
- i wouldnt think that 250whp would be impossible with an 8k budget. hell....stock type-r's put out what? 210-220? i dont have all the details figured out but i have a general idea - sleeved block, 12.1-12.5:1 compression(as long as it can be run on pump gas) pistons, skunk2 pro series cams or comp cams....JUN maybe? full port and polish on head, intake and exhaust side valve job(i know a guy who can do the head work better than ANY machine- Buddy Jentzen, old drag racer from back in the day), dual springs....the works.
if i do decide to turbo it can i run turbo cams on a N/A engine for the time being(if turbo cams are necessary for FI motors-could i run the skunk2 pro series or comp cams stage 3-4 on a turbo motor)? or would it hurt the engine?
i was hoping someone would give me a local place, if not i was gonna ask. it would be a bitch to ship a block to cali and back on top of the cost for the work. they have a website? (ill check anyways)
was it tuned correctly????? it shouldnt have dropped in HP because he had higher compression.... maybe he should have used race gas/or chosen a more streetable CR.Well, keep in mind, you don't want too high of CR. Typically, with decently aggressive cams, you'd want around 11.5:1CR, no higher than 12:1CR. Example, a friend of mine dyno'd IDENTICAL Type-R engines with Skunk2 Pro-Is, with CTR pistons (12.5:1CR), and P30 pistons (11.4:1CR), and guess which setup lost 4whp due to it's CR? Yeap, the setup with CTR pistons.
Sometimes less is more, especially with all motor Hondas.
even w/ a sleeved block capable of 40-50psi of boost id have to use like 9.5:1 CR pistons???hmmm
...when building an engine for NA it eventually gets to the point to where you have to go with pistons. And the only way you're going to get any kind of decent power is if you choose high compression pistons to go with a nice set of agressive cams.
Sure, go ahead and do that.
But after that, any kind of FI is out of the question on that block.
you should be able to tap mid to high 12s with the right setup in a CRX.
-jonathan
i wanna hit 11's.... then ill go from there..... ive thought about making it strictly a racecar and then just getting something else to drive..... another crx....lol
By ZedEx You obviously don't know the first thing about all motor Hondas... For example, RPRacing's 230whp all motor Integra Type-R ran 11.98, in a full weight Type-R. Now imagine about 240whp all motor in a CRX.
By Homemade240s I'm looking at it money wise. By the time u spend the money to make that kind of power, u can boost two of those engines and ran insanely HP.
If u don't think so, give me the money that u're going to spend on an NA B20 and i'll show what i'm talking about. I'm speaking from experince so don't tell me that i do not know anything about Hondas...
see ya 240love.
Another thing no one mentioned here is that ITBs require VERY, VERY precise tuning. Honda S300 or Crome are your only options for it, too.
Throttle response, period.
back to the original question, I thought those home made ITB's were built pretty shitty. The runners were long as hell compared to TWM or TODA, and the velocity stacks were only like 2" from the firewall, which can't be good for incoming air flow. It just didn't look like a great or reliable design, especially with the PVC spacer...
Land Rover LR3 HSE
i had the same impression about the spacing. it looks too long and as you said its too close to the firewall
i made 240whp with a portmatched AEBS intake manifold ($150)
ITBs are LAST on the list, you better make sure you have good CAMS, a GOOD header (Not a DC sports) and a ported head before you even think of buying ITBs.
and ITBs dont add TOP END POWER, that is a myth. THey CAN add top end power, but they are mainly for MIDRANGE gains and throttle response
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for $8000 you can duplicate my setup which made 240whp on PUMP GAS
Contact Don Flores at DFE enterprises and you i guarantee the power your looking for WITHOUT ITBs an on PUMP GAS.
My setup was:
2.0l
LSVTEC
Skunk2 PRO3s
DFE Ported head
Hytech Header
CP 12:1 pistons
Eagle Rods
Stock LS crank
AEBS intake with 70mm Skunk2 TB
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cost you 8k?? damn..... looks good though. and shows that its possible and relatively easy to make power. but i want a b20/vtec they arent as common to see... built anyways
... i have one
Jesus Christ is my Savior
i didnt say theyre like gold.... i said theyre not as common...... like silver... i have one
Mine was professionally assembled and engine dynoed and included all OEM parts , gaskets, machine work, etc
Mine was a LS BLOCK sleeved to 84.5mm. but you can run a b20 block an get the same results.
And Speedminded , thats PAcMans car, no way that car can be done for $8000.
RSX Type-S Swap $4200
Hasport Motor Mounts-$650
Kpro-$1000
Karcepts box-$85
Fuel Lines/Clutch Lines-$350
Radiator-$250
misc hoses,lines-$200
FPR-$200 (aeromotive)
thats before ITBs, tuning, install, welding, cutting, wheels, clutch, suspension, etc.
K series isnt worth it, too much money IMO. you can make more power with a B series for the same amount of money.
THE BIGGEST PROBLEM WITH PEOPLE NOT MAKING POWER WITH NA SETUPS IS ASSEMBLY AND MACHINE WORK. make sure you know what you are doing .
Enterprise Data Resources- Ecommerce Project Manager
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Quoted for Truth and Emphasis
as in poor machine work and incorrect assembly???
hell ill be buying 3 engines for less than the price of that one. b20 longblock (2 for $999 +shipping) B16A Swap.... with tranny and axles and everything.
Seriously, if you are willing to spend $8k on a engine setup then go K-series with a mild build...no questions asked.
Last edited by speedminded; 08-31-2007 at 05:46 PM.
Seriously, if you are willing to spend $8k on a engine setup then go K-series with a mild build...no questions asked.
that looks sick. and you arent the first one to say that either.... but heres the catch:
ill be doing all the installation and most of the assembly myself. (except for the sleeves and everything.... and the block will be built at the same time.
if it requires an ass load of experience or expensive machinery then its out of the question. this will be a major learning process but its something im willing to bust my ass and do, while still being possible.
im pretty smart and can figure shit out on my own and i learn quickly so i think ill be alright....but you cant buy experience you just gotta do it.
k series comes out of??? RSX? s2k?
The conversion/procedure going from a D-series CRX to a K isn't really much differant than from a D-series to a B-series, either way you'll still need all the parts for the conversion: mounts, harness, axles, header, exhaust, etc. I don't have a build list for what exactly is needed but Mike or someone should have one readily available.
The K20a2 is out of the RSX Type-S with the 6-speed transmission and the K20a3 is from the base RSX and '02+ Civic SI.
Your K20 options are generally as follows:
K20A - JDM EP3/DC5 CTR/ITR
K20A2 - 02-04 RSX-S
K20a3 - EP3/DC5 Si/RSX Base
K20Z1- 05-06 RSX-S
K20Z3 - 06+ FG Si.
the Z1 and the Z3 are fly by wire, so you have to use a different TB with them, which requires an adapter.
awesome. man that thing does look bad ass in that car..... how much is the swap?
^ Good Lord... MF10s, built K-Series, fully gutted... Looks like an amazing car to me.
A Type-R and a Type-SH.
before you start your build, do your research in the all motor forum on HT.
which transmission are you wanting to use?
-jonathan
Jesus Christ is my Savior
at first i wanted to go w/ a type r tranny. But ....
1)theyre expensive as shit
2)the gears are short which wouldnt be a bad thing but id like to have some top end as well.... not just a stoplight car.
prolly go w/ a gsr tranny or b16 i havent looked into them very much.... thats just the info i gathered from lookin around on here....
as far as clutches go, would i need a crazy ass carbon-metallic dual friction clutch bullshit for $1500 or could i just get a fairly beefy exedy or act clutch for 4-500 bux?
Well your original statement came off as an "anti-all motor" statement, but this one justifies what you meant better.By ZedEx You obviously don't know the first thing about all motor Hondas... For example, RPRacing's 230whp all motor Integra Type-R ran 11.98, in a full weight Type-R. Now imagine about 240whp all motor in a CRX.
By Homemade240s I'm looking at it money wise. By the time u spend the money to make that kind of power, u can boost two of those engines and ran insanely HP.
If u don't think so, give me the money that u're going to spend on an NA B20 and i'll show what i'm talking about. I'm speaking from experince so don't tell me that i do not know anything about Hondas...
see ya 240love.
Personally, I love boosted Hondas, I've had my share of boosted cars, and I love boost. But at this point, I'm going after a reliable car, that I can jump in on a whim, and drive across the country, without having to worry about a return line busting off, or a charge pipe blowing off, etc.
But back to my original point... Show me a boosted 230whp Type-R that can run 11.98. While yes, for the money, you could have built a 450whp engine that could have run the same times... But why do that, when you can do it just on the motor?
That's my view point... I'm an all motor guy, people don't get us, haha.
... Uhhh, no dude, it wouldn't be a "stoplight car" at all. How would you lose top end with a tight geared transmission? Type-Rs are factory road course cars, you have PLENTY of top end with them. Trust me man, I drive one every single day.
Most Type-R owners put in an even tighter final drive (Typically a JDM 4.785FD, or an ATS/SRR/M-Factory 4.928FD or 5.077FD... Stock USDM Type-R and '96-'97 JDM Type-R is 4.400FD), people that track their cars every weekend. Tight gearing's a good thing, it's not like you're going to top out at 120mph with a stock Type-R transmission.
A Type-R transmission would be PERFECT for your build. Stock LSD, tight gearing, great gear ratios. A wider geared transmission absolutely kills an all motor setup. A buddy of mine swapped a Type-R engine (Purchased legit from a reputable Honda-Tech seller) into his '98 LS, and left the LS transmission in. We went from second on the highway, and by top of fourth, I had 3 cars on him.
Yes, gearing makes that big of a different.
As for price. I see Type-R transmissions sell on a daily basis for $1,000-$1,200 in awesome shape. I sold one of mine for $800 with a second gear grind. The guy who bought it, fixed it with a spare syncro he had. It's well worth the money, if you try to build a B16 or a GSR transmission to match it's performance, you're going to be spending just as much as a stock Type-R transmission would run you.
I laughed when I read B16 on your list... If you think Type-R is too tight, B16 shouldn't be on your list either.
How about a stock Type-R clutch for $300? Type-R clutches do awesome with all motor setups.
Myself personally, I'm using ACT Street-Lite/ACT HD pressure plate/ACT unsprung 6-puck. But that's because my all motor build I'm going with right now, should generate around 210-215whp, and I'll be spraying a 50 shot on top of that. So I'll need a bit more grabbing power when I'm running 22" slicks, launching at 7,500RPM, and spraying off the line.
But for 240-250whp, a stock Type-R clutch will be awesome. If you decide you need a bit more gripping/holding power, just go with a Competiton Stage-II.
You've got a LOT of good advice in this thread. I'd recommend you listen to it.
Last edited by ZedEx; 09-01-2007 at 01:48 PM.
A Type-R and a Type-SH.
oh im listening. believe me! i bookmarked this specific thread, and other sites directly relating to what im doing.Well your original statement came off as an "anti-all motor" statement, but this one justifies what you meant better.
Personally, I love boosted Hondas, I've had my share of boosted cars, and I love boost. But at this point, I'm going after a reliable car, that I can jump in on a whim, and drive across the country, without having to worry about a return line busting off, or a charge pipe blowing off, etc.
But back to my original point... Show me a boosted 230whp Type-R that can run 11.98. While yes, for the money, you could have built a 450whp engine that could have run the same times... But why do that, when you can do it just on the motor?
That's my view point... I'm an all motor guy, people don't get us, haha.
... Uhhh, no dude, it wouldn't be a "stoplight car" at all. How would you lose top end with a tight geared transmission? Type-Rs are factory road course cars, you have PLENTY of top end with them. Trust me man, I drive one every single day.
Most Type-R owners put in an even tighter final drive (Typically a JDM 4.785FD, or an ATS/SRR/M-Factory 4.928FD or 5.077FD... Stock USDM Type-R and '96-'97 JDM Type-R is 4.400FD), people that track their cars every weekend. Tight gearing's a good thing, it's not like you're going to top out at 120mph with a stock Type-R transmission.
A Type-R transmission would be PERFECT for your build. Stock LSD, tight gearing, great gear ratios. A wider geared transmission absolutely kills an all motor setup. A buddy of mine swapped a Type-R engine (Purchased legit from a reputable Honda-Tech seller) into his '98 LS, and left the LS transmission in. We went from second on the highway, and by top of fourth, I had 3 cars on him.
Yes, gearing makes that big of a different.
As for price. I see Type-R transmissions sell on a daily basis for $1,000-$1,200 in awesome shape. I sold one of mine for $800 with a second gear grind. The guy who bought it, fixed it with a spare syncro he had. It's well worth the money, if you try to build a B16 or a GSR transmission to match it's performance, you're going to be spending just as much as a stock Type-R transmission would run you.
I laughed when I read B16 on your list... If you think Type-R is too tight, B16 shouldn't be on your list either.
How about a stock Type-R clutch for $300? Type-R clutches do awesome with all motor setups.
Myself personally, I'm using ACT Street-Lite/ACT HD pressure plate/ACT unsprung 6-puck. But that's because my all motor build I'm going with right now, should generate around 210-215whp, and I'll be spraying a 50 shot on top of that. So I'll need a bit more grabbing power when I'm running 22" slicks, launching at 7,500RPM, and spraying off the line.
But for 240-250whp, a stock Type-R clutch will be awesome. If you decide you need a bit more gripping/holding power, just go with a Competiton Stage-II.
You've got a LOT of good advice in this thread. I'd recommend you listen to it.
as far as the tranny goes i like what im hearing. i guess i understood that the type-r tranny has short quick gears but because of that lacks top end. i guess i was wrong. and im also glad i dont have to sell a kidney for a clutch!!
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