hell ill be buying 3 engines for less than the price of that one. b20 longblock (2 for $999 +shipping) B16A Swap.... with tranny and axles and everything.Originally Posted by Mr. KiDD
hell ill be buying 3 engines for less than the price of that one. b20 longblock (2 for $999 +shipping) B16A Swap.... with tranny and axles and everything.
at first i wanted to go w/ a type r tranny. But ....
1)theyre expensive as shit
2)the gears are short which wouldnt be a bad thing but id like to have some top end as well.... not just a stoplight car.
prolly go w/ a gsr tranny or b16 i havent looked into them very much.... thats just the info i gathered from lookin around on here....
as far as clutches go, would i need a crazy ass carbon-metallic dual friction clutch bullshit for $1500 or could i just get a fairly beefy exedy or act clutch for 4-500 bux?
Well your original statement came off as an "anti-all motor" statement, but this one justifies what you meant better.By ZedEx You obviously don't know the first thing about all motor Hondas... For example, RPRacing's 230whp all motor Integra Type-R ran 11.98, in a full weight Type-R. Now imagine about 240whp all motor in a CRX.
By Homemade240s I'm looking at it money wise. By the time u spend the money to make that kind of power, u can boost two of those engines and ran insanely HP.
If u don't think so, give me the money that u're going to spend on an NA B20 and i'll show what i'm talking about. I'm speaking from experince so don't tell me that i do not know anything about Hondas...
see ya 240love.
Personally, I love boosted Hondas, I've had my share of boosted cars, and I love boost. But at this point, I'm going after a reliable car, that I can jump in on a whim, and drive across the country, without having to worry about a return line busting off, or a charge pipe blowing off, etc.
But back to my original point... Show me a boosted 230whp Type-R that can run 11.98. While yes, for the money, you could have built a 450whp engine that could have run the same times... But why do that, when you can do it just on the motor?
That's my view point... I'm an all motor guy, people don't get us, haha.
... Uhhh, no dude, it wouldn't be a "stoplight car" at all. How would you lose top end with a tight geared transmission? Type-Rs are factory road course cars, you have PLENTY of top end with them. Trust me man, I drive one every single day.
Most Type-R owners put in an even tighter final drive (Typically a JDM 4.785FD, or an ATS/SRR/M-Factory 4.928FD or 5.077FD... Stock USDM Type-R and '96-'97 JDM Type-R is 4.400FD), people that track their cars every weekend. Tight gearing's a good thing, it's not like you're going to top out at 120mph with a stock Type-R transmission.
A Type-R transmission would be PERFECT for your build. Stock LSD, tight gearing, great gear ratios. A wider geared transmission absolutely kills an all motor setup. A buddy of mine swapped a Type-R engine (Purchased legit from a reputable Honda-Tech seller) into his '98 LS, and left the LS transmission in. We went from second on the highway, and by top of fourth, I had 3 cars on him.
Yes, gearing makes that big of a different.
As for price. I see Type-R transmissions sell on a daily basis for $1,000-$1,200 in awesome shape. I sold one of mine for $800 with a second gear grind. The guy who bought it, fixed it with a spare syncro he had. It's well worth the money, if you try to build a B16 or a GSR transmission to match it's performance, you're going to be spending just as much as a stock Type-R transmission would run you.
I laughed when I read B16 on your list... If you think Type-R is too tight, B16 shouldn't be on your list either.
How about a stock Type-R clutch for $300? Type-R clutches do awesome with all motor setups.
Myself personally, I'm using ACT Street-Lite/ACT HD pressure plate/ACT unsprung 6-puck. But that's because my all motor build I'm going with right now, should generate around 210-215whp, and I'll be spraying a 50 shot on top of that. So I'll need a bit more grabbing power when I'm running 22" slicks, launching at 7,500RPM, and spraying off the line.
But for 240-250whp, a stock Type-R clutch will be awesome. If you decide you need a bit more gripping/holding power, just go with a Competiton Stage-II.
You've got a LOT of good advice in this thread. I'd recommend you listen to it.
Last edited by ZedEx; 09-01-2007 at 02:48 PM.
A Type-R and a Type-SH.
oh im listening. believe me! i bookmarked this specific thread, and other sites directly relating to what im doing.Well your original statement came off as an "anti-all motor" statement, but this one justifies what you meant better.
Personally, I love boosted Hondas, I've had my share of boosted cars, and I love boost. But at this point, I'm going after a reliable car, that I can jump in on a whim, and drive across the country, without having to worry about a return line busting off, or a charge pipe blowing off, etc.
But back to my original point... Show me a boosted 230whp Type-R that can run 11.98. While yes, for the money, you could have built a 450whp engine that could have run the same times... But why do that, when you can do it just on the motor?
That's my view point... I'm an all motor guy, people don't get us, haha.
... Uhhh, no dude, it wouldn't be a "stoplight car" at all. How would you lose top end with a tight geared transmission? Type-Rs are factory road course cars, you have PLENTY of top end with them. Trust me man, I drive one every single day.
Most Type-R owners put in an even tighter final drive (Typically a JDM 4.785FD, or an ATS/SRR/M-Factory 4.928FD or 5.077FD... Stock USDM Type-R and '96-'97 JDM Type-R is 4.400FD), people that track their cars every weekend. Tight gearing's a good thing, it's not like you're going to top out at 120mph with a stock Type-R transmission.
A Type-R transmission would be PERFECT for your build. Stock LSD, tight gearing, great gear ratios. A wider geared transmission absolutely kills an all motor setup. A buddy of mine swapped a Type-R engine (Purchased legit from a reputable Honda-Tech seller) into his '98 LS, and left the LS transmission in. We went from second on the highway, and by top of fourth, I had 3 cars on him.
Yes, gearing makes that big of a different.
As for price. I see Type-R transmissions sell on a daily basis for $1,000-$1,200 in awesome shape. I sold one of mine for $800 with a second gear grind. The guy who bought it, fixed it with a spare syncro he had. It's well worth the money, if you try to build a B16 or a GSR transmission to match it's performance, you're going to be spending just as much as a stock Type-R transmission would run you.
I laughed when I read B16 on your list... If you think Type-R is too tight, B16 shouldn't be on your list either.
How about a stock Type-R clutch for $300? Type-R clutches do awesome with all motor setups.
Myself personally, I'm using ACT Street-Lite/ACT HD pressure plate/ACT unsprung 6-puck. But that's because my all motor build I'm going with right now, should generate around 210-215whp, and I'll be spraying a 50 shot on top of that. So I'll need a bit more grabbing power when I'm running 22" slicks, launching at 7,500RPM, and spraying off the line.
But for 240-250whp, a stock Type-R clutch will be awesome. If you decide you need a bit more gripping/holding power, just go with a Competiton Stage-II.
You've got a LOT of good advice in this thread. I'd recommend you listen to it.
as far as the tranny goes i like what im hearing. i guess i understood that the type-r tranny has short quick gears but because of that lacks top end. i guess i was wrong. and im also glad i dont have to sell a kidney for a clutch!!
The difference in assembly means everything...
for instance:
the specs for the cam journals are on the outer limits of their acceptable tolerances... instead of re-machining the journal, old buddy says "eh, it'll be alright..." and lets it slide.
Meanwhile, someone who takes extreme pride in their work would take the journal that was almost out of spec, and machine it to where it was right where it is supposed to be.
Every heard of an engine that runs a tad rougher than another being reffered to as one being assembled on friday before a holiday weekend? The tiniest little things make the biggest difference.
Cylinder sleeves and valve journals are the best example of this.
-jonathan
edit* a TypeR transmission would be nice, but a B16 with an KAAZ lsd would be a lot more agressive in the corners.
as far as clutches goes, you would be find running a full face or 6 puck clutch. Just look at the horsepower rating for the friction disk and you'll be fine. Remember, the fewer pucks that are on the clutch, the more agressive, but the trade-off it clutch longevity. (if you don't want to replace a clutch every year, don't get a 3 puck)
[/URL]
Jesus Christ is my Savior
old buddy, if you are referring to him specifically, knows his shit.... give him some credit.
b16 with said LSD would cost the same as a type-r? performance wise would they be the same? the b16 has shorter gears?
thanks for the info everyone
i wasn't talking about your best friends dad's brothers cousin's NASCAR grandfather man... don't take offense. It was a general term for some ol' schmo in a machine shop somewhere.
The lsd made my KAAZ is a very aggressive. You'll be happy with it when it clicks and almost engages when you turn corners at stoplights. Mate that with a B16 which has almost the same ratios as a TypeR, but costs a ton less
-jonathan
Jesus Christ is my Savior
^ Pretty much.
A Type-R and a Type-SH.
sweet ill look into that.i wasn't talking about your best friends dad's brothers cousin's NASCAR grandfather man... don't take offense. It was a general term for some ol' schmo in a machine shop somewhere.
The lsd made my KAAZ is a very aggressive. You'll be happy with it when it clicks and almost engages when you turn corners at stoplights. Mate that with a B16 which has almost the same ratios as a TypeR, but costs a ton less
-jonathan
and no offense taken. if i truely thought you were talkin shit about him i would have given you a flaming PM. but i did not.... i gave you reps.... as well as everyone else who put forth valuable information here. thanks again
edit: THATS cheaper than a type-r tranny??? helllll naw man lol
http://www.kaazusa.com/products/Retail_Price_List.htm
and thats ONLY the lsd... not the clutch and tranny and fluid and shit
type r tranny = (i checked ebay a while back) and avg price + shipping was around 1300. plus clutch = 1600-1700
B16 tranny (would come with swap) but avg ebay prices are about $600 for tranny itself + KAAZ LSD ($950) = 1550 + clutch = 1850-2000
its not so much difference really..... if the performance gain from that LSD in a B16 vs the type-r tranny is great enough then the price is worthwhile.... but if its only a little better then it wouldnt be worth it.
Last edited by SL65AMG; 09-01-2007 at 06:15 PM.
wow, so much misinformation in this thread.
Stock clutch for 240-250whp? wont last a week.
B16s have the same gearing as ITR trannys. CERTAIN year ITR trans had 4.7FDs. but those are hard to find.
Cam journals being off? uhhhh the cam journals cant be "set", and in a honda head, they really cant be machined either.
no the "assembly and machine work" part im talking about is PRECISION work. KNOW your bearing clearances, know your ring gaps, KNOW how to degree your camshafts in. If you dont know what any of that means, high whp NA motors arent for you. just go turbo. otherwise all your doing is halfassing a build.
Not many people on here know how to build an NA car an few have had success. Id take what you hear in here lightly. Truth is, very FEW have even made over 200whp, and only 3 people i know of have made over 230whp locally. check out my thread stickied in the the ALL MOTOR
KEEP IT SIMPLE, Vteckidds Guide to NA
or check Honda-tech.com in the All Motor forum.
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and your best bet for a tranny is Hmotorsonline.com
i bought my B16 tranny WITH kaaz LSD for $1050 SHIPPED
clutch wise go with a standard pressure plate competition clutch stage 4. you dont need a stiff pressure plate, but you want a grabby disk
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well i do know that i will need a good clutch. even if i could get away with a stocker i probably wouldnt use it anyways.
for now im just gathering information.... ill cross the bridges when i get to them. but you bet your ass that ill be #4 on the list of 230+ hp motors
KNOW your bearing clearances, know your ring gaps, KNOW how to degree your camshafts in. - i know what these mean but i dont know the spec's are. ive got help from my dad if i dont know/cant figure it out.
generally how much hp is lost from the motor to the ground. 10-15%
im not one to half ass stuff, ill ask for help if needed.
Last edited by SL65AMG; 09-01-2007 at 07:52 PM.
ive been all through that site, i go there pretty frequently actually, but i havent found any trannies. is it something that comes and goes and isnt a stocked item.
was that a one time thing?
i think im gonna buy an entire b16 swap and just part out what i dont need. (block, Int. Man., Exh. Man...etc.) but i want that LSD.
you have to CALL hmotorsonline.com and ask for steve, he doesnt list the trannies for sale on the website
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average drivetrain loss is 13%
an no offense, unless your dad has built a few honda motors, theres more to it than that.
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i know.... but dont discourage me.... hes built many motors...but no hondas
thanks
I know multiple Type-R owners putting down 350whp on stock Type-R clutches, and many all motor guys running 230whp through their stock clutches, and they do fine.
I gave the SPECIFIC information about this. All USDM Type-Rs ('97-'01) came with 4.400FD, JDM Type-Rs from '96-'97 had the same 4.400FD as all '97-'01 USDM Type-Rs. In '98, Honda changed the JDM Type-R final drive to 4.785FD.
How is that misinformation? And they're not hard to find at all... Any Honda clip/swap/parts carrier can get this transmission with no issue. You can still buy them brand new, how can something be hard to find if you can still buy it brand new? It's not exactly a high in demand part, it's not a Ferby, or a Tickle-Me-Elmo, the shit's not going to be sold out because the manufacturer cannot keep up with demand.
I hate to come off like an ass, but you called my advice/information misinformation, and it's not. It's not like I'm in here telling him that with just a JUN head package, he'd be good to rev to 13,000RPM, and he'd make at least 275whp or some shit. I'm giving pretty solid advice.
200whp isn't that hard to hit. A head package/proper CR with high quality bolt ons would do that just fine. Hell, Dave_B on Honda-Tech made 196whp on a completely stock JDM Type-R engine, with an SMS-P header/exhaust, Mugen intake, and tuned with Hondata. Granted, they're excellent bolt ons, but they're still just bolt ons.
If a stock Type-R engine with high quality bolt ons can generate near 200whp, a decently built LS/VTEC with a nice head package and high quality bolt ons can hit a higher number than that.
I'm not just disagreeing with you, for the sake of disagreeing. I just do not agree with what you're saying in the bolded areas.
A Type-R and a Type-SH.
*sigh*
here's a dyno for inspiration man. don't let all the technical crap [as important as it may be] take the fun out of your build. And that's what's important here. Stick to the Honda encylopedia that is HT and you'll be fine.
The dyno sheet belongs to a DC owned by Jeff Taylor, it's on Toda's website, and made 244whp all motor. it was however bored over to 84.5mm with ITB's, Toda C's, and 13.3:1 comp...
-jonathan
Last edited by DB1_77; 09-02-2007 at 04:41 AM.
Jesus Christ is my Savior
this guys talking about making 230whp. im just trying to let him know its not easy. Only 4 people have made over 230whp locally
Me-B series
Streetstuff-B series
Chunky-Kseries
Jay-Kseries
a stock clutch will NOT HOLD 230whp, sorry, ive smoked Competition Clutch stage 3s with 190whp.
i see alot of "ive seen this on honda-tech and i saw so an so make these numbers".
i dont see alot of "this is what my motor made''
I know im coming off as a dick, but ive been there, ive had 2 big NA builds. ive consulted on numerous other builds. ive seen guys build crazy motors that dont make any power. ive seen the "sposed to make 230whp motors " make 200whp.
Ive seen the 200whp motors make 180whp.
Im being encouraging in a glass is half empty kinda way. 230whp is a HARD NUMBER to hit, and it takes alot of skill.
be prepared not to make your goal
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Under hrad driving conditions, no way, wont last a week. Ask BlackR on hereI know multiple Type-R owners putting down 350whp on stock Type-R clutches, and many all motor guys running 230whp through their stock clutches, and they do fine.
Try calling an ordering one, almost impossible to get a 4.78 FD tranny nowadays. they are $$ too. I tried to get one from Hmotors an it was $1400. im not saying they are impossible, just HARder to find. remember i am in the business, ive tried to locate them before.How is that misinformation? And they're not hard to find at all... Any Honda clip/swap/parts carrier can get this transmission with no issue. You can still buy them brand new, how can something be hard to find if you can still buy it brand new? It's not exactly a high in demand part, it's not a Ferby, or a Tickle-Me-Elmo, the shit's not going to be sold out because the manufacturer cannot keep up with demand.
i woudlnt say that.. I'm giving pretty solid advice.
How many have you done? believe everything on HT?200whp isn't that hard to hit. A head package/proper CR with high quality bolt ons would do that just fine. Hell, Dave_B on Honda-Tech made 196whp on a completely stock JDM Type-R engine, with an SMS-P header/exhaust, Mugen intake, and tuned with Hondata. Granted, they're excellent bolt ons, but they're still just bolt ons.
again, how many have YOU done? your assuming alot.If a stock Type-R engine with high quality bolt ons can generate near 200whp, a decently built LS/VTEC with a nice head package and high quality bolt ons can hit a higher number than that.
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Where is Dave_B located? I bet its not the hot & humid southeast is it? What fuel was he running too...wasn't pump gas and probably wasn't 100 octane either. I've been around many 200whp engines, from Hondata to MoTec running the SMS header, stock IM, & j's racing intake. I know what's involved to get 200+whp and it won't happen around here with a stock head
Then to get that extra 30whp as mike mentioned...hahaha...good luck.
see you know what im talking about man! i knew someone would come throughWhere is Dave_B located? I bet its not the hot & humid southeast is it? What fuel was he running too...wasn't pump gas and probably wasn't 100 octane either. I've been around many 200whp engines, from Hondata to MoTec running the SMS header, stock IM, & j's racing intake. I know what's involved to get 200+whp and it won't happen around here with a stock head
Then to get that extra 30whp as mike mentioned...hahaha...good luck.
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i made 202 on an oem bottom end and a fully built head and rmf header..
GECKO SQUAD MEMBER
MSS RACING REPRESENTA.....
the saga continues....
it just doesnt seem like with a fully built bottom end and a fully built head and tuning out the ass that 230+ whp is all that hard to get..... but i guess thats just inexperience talking...
<--- Honda-Tech goon. I love that site.
While it may not be easy per se, it is not impossible with quality components. I say 200whp is an easy mark to hit, 230whp is a bit more difficult, and 250whp takes just as much more.
Damn, how did you do that?
No, I know people PERSONALLY who are doing what I'm talking about. But you're right, I have used a lot of "Blah blah blah on Honda-Tech did this that and the other."
However, I'm starting my all motor build in a few months here, I'll be sure to keep you posted. It's a rather simple build, I'll send you my Honda-Tech "build up" thread.
Haha, nah man, we're just going back and forth about a vast subject, I'm not taking it personal.
I like being proved wrong, that's how I learn.
All motor is touchy like that.
Hell, my stock Type-R with TODA header/Omnipower testpipe/DC Sports exhaust/AEM 3" CAI made 157whp... Granted, it was literally 110degrees out, I was a quart and a half low on oil (I forgot to check before it went up), and I was blowing blue like a Smurf. But for the times I run at the track, and the cars I beat/stay next to, I was estimating 180whp or so. But the dyno said 157whp. That's when I decided it was time to rebuild/mildly build.
I agree with you. I never said 230whp is an easy number to hit. I did, however, say that 200whp is rather easy.
Oh shit, BlackR's on here? I didn't know that.
$1,400 isn't too shabby for a JDM transmission. They can still be purchased brand new, I can't remember which user on Honda-Tech has a hookup at a Japan Honda dealership, but he can get them for $2,000 shipped. Which is about what you'll find a brand new USDM Type-R transmission for brand new Stateside. I've seen them as cheap as $1,600 brand new from a dealership.
Oh come on now, it's not like I'm telling him off the wall shit.
Nope, sure don't believe everything on Honda-Tech. But I know a lot of people who have done them personally... God that sounds so stupid, but no, I do not have any PERSONAL "I HAVE DONE THIS" experience, I won't lie and say I do.
Zero.
Dave's located in Florida.Where is Dave_B located? I bet its not the hot & humid southeast is it? What fuel was he running too...wasn't pump gas and probably wasn't 100 octane either. I've been around many 200whp engines, from Hondata to MoTec running the SMS header, stock IM, & j's racing intake. I know what's involved to get 200+whp and it won't happen around here with a stock head
Then to get that extra 30whp as mike mentioned...hahaha...good luck.
I never said getting 230whp is easy. I said getting 200whp is easy, if it's done corrected.
Yeap, it's been done thousands of times over, it's definitely not impossible.
A Type-R and a Type-SH.
Wow, that sounds like a lot of money for not as much power as you think it would give you...
202whp in a lightweight Honda is moving out man.
A buddy of mine (Yes, yet another one of these examples. He's known as slodsm across the net) ran 12.4s with 207whp, in a fullweight '92 Civic.
A Type-R and a Type-SH.
this thread will not turn into a pissing contest guys..... i think theres valuable information here and there is still more to come.... lets not ruin it.
Oh, we're not pissing at each other at all. Like I said, we're just going back and forth. No one's throwing insults, no one's personally attacking each other, it's just a good old fashion debate.
No one's taking it strongly.
A Type-R and a Type-SH.
i know.... but you know how things go on IA.....
Nah, I don't really. I've only been here a week.
A Type-R and a Type-SH.
oh. lol ok. it gets hairy real quick.
Nah, I think Mr. KiDD is more mature than that. If he were going to get shitty, he'd have done it already.
A Type-R and a Type-SH.
yeah
again, yours was professionally assembled an made 10whp more than anyone elses motor locally that was similar
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where would i go about getting a header? i know RMF and Hytech are good but theyre about a grand..... theres gotta be something just as good for cheaper....
Then go turbo where a $300 header works and have this thread locked. You want quality that WILL produce results then you have to be willing to pay.
-or-
Just do like I do and search the forums forsale sections: importatlanta.com, honda-tech.com, team-integra.net, etc. etc. etc.....ebay.com, etc. etc. I guarantee you someone is selling a high quality header. Practically everything on my car was found on the forums/ebay: from my brand new b18c5, to cusco flywheel, Porsche calipers, stage III clutchmaster kit, OEM optional sideskirts, ITR ECU, obd2a to obd2b conversion harness, Honda ITR non-srs momo steering wheel...etc. It might takes weeks or even months but everything you could ever possibly want someone is going to have for sale somewhere...
Last edited by speedminded; 09-03-2007 at 01:26 PM.
why have the thread locked? and thanks for the advice.....
EF SQUAD FTMFW!!!!
Because you were talking about getting a cheaper header, proper engine builds and inferior products don't go together...
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