turbo civic putting in work

[112480]

post up more videos

Sure, here ya go. Too bad they wont see MUCH(didnt say any) of that here.

http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=clymE...eature=related

Oh and in case they say anything, here's Moseley WHOOPING MY ASS
http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=Ipc4zmVeRGY

So at the time Moseley had THE FASTER CAR! Doesnt matter if i put a faster time down at the track because HE STILL(at that time)HAS THE FASTER CAR!!!!! Who gives a shit if my car at the time was to run a 11.5 and moseley ran a 12.3, HE STILL(at that time)HAS THE FASTER CAR!! So in the end his car is faster, PERIOD!

[Moseley]

I wouldn't say that was whooping your ass. I think I got a very slight jump on you on the first two runs. like .1 second maybe. but it made a difference. And whomever said 3 beeps is lame... its no different than watching hands drop or watching a tree. I didn't go before the beep so that is all that matters.

Too bad the video of the 3rd run turned out to be bad. It was recorded from behind, and the camera wasn't focused. We went about the same time on that one and I had what maybe a half car on you at 100mph?

[112480]

I wouldn't say that was whooping your ass. I think I got a very slight jump on you on the first two runs. like .1 second maybe. but it made a difference. And whomever said 3 beeps is lame... its no different than watching hands drop or watching a tree. I didn't go before the beep so that is all that matters.

Too bad the video of the 3rd run turned out to be bad. It was recorded from behind, and the camera wasn't focused. We went about the same time on that one and I had what maybe a half car on you at 100mph?

Yea u did on the 3rd run cause i was revving a little higher than the first two and still wasnt at my "sweet spot" but i dont like bringing the 3rd run up b/c it sounds like i would be making excuses when u CLEARLY beat me all three runs

[Vteckidd]

In the end it all comes down to who has a perfect run and who doesn't. Just like any competition. I ran 14s at the track but beat other cars that ran 13.0. My 2.0l beat cars that ran 12s but doesn't mean my car was a 12 second car cause it never did it.

So it goes both ways.

In the end just have a goal, have fun, don't get caught up in whp and scenarios or coulda shoulda woulda.

I know we all have ego and personalities but at tue end of the day regardless of the shit talking I hope everyone runs fast and gets what they want. So I hope midnight runs fast, I hope Bobby gets his car together, I hope Greg gets his motor or car back on the road, and I hope Mosely gets motivated to bring the 2.o out.

But most of all I hope disco monkey still kicks y'all ass

B>K :p

[112480]

and ACTUALLY moseley, power wise, u DID whoop my ass. lol! i made 32 more whp than you, oh sorry i MAKE 32whp more than you! LOL! I was to crunk at the time to realize the gearing difference between us thus leading to my demise. but i FINALLY took H22jones and Chunkys advice

[112480]

But most of all I hope disco monkey still kicks y'all ass
B>K :p

God Dammit Mike! We'll see about that

[DarKStaR]

theres a few cars coming out that should run pretty good...

[Moseley]

Gregg here is why dyno #s can be really misleading. A dyno measures whp by how quickly your car spins up a drum in that particular gear. It does math based upon the speed and acceleration of the drum. So based upon the drum spinning up at X rate, it can compute power, but if the dyno gave back the raw numbers it is reading, we'd all be doing dyno runs in 1st gear and making 2000+lbs of torque. So the dyno does some math to guestimate how much power is actually be produced, based on the speed of the drum. So if you do a pull in 2nd gear, in theory it should give the same power numbers as it does in 4th. But it doesn't. because you're hanging axles, wheels, and tires, off of the tranny and a lower ratio effectively increases the losses from that additional weight. That is why a dyno will typically show you lower numbers in 1st and 2nd gear.

I said all of that just to say... if you were to take both of our cars and strap them on the dyno in 2nd gear. it would still show that you have a power advantage, because the dyno tries to eliminate gearing from the equation. but if you could see the RAW numbers being put to the ground by each of our cars in 2nd gear you'd see that there was no 32whp advantage

[112480]

Gregg here is why dyno #s can be really misleading. A dyno measures whp by how quickly your car spins up a drum in that particular gear. It does math based upon the speed and acceleration of the drum. So based upon the drum spinning up at X rate, it can compute power, but if the dyno gave back the raw numbers it is reading, we'd all be doing dyno runs in 1st gear and making 2000+lbs of torque. So the dyno does some math to guestimate how much power is actually be produced, based on the speed of the drum. So if you do a pull in 2nd gear, in theory it should give the same power numbers as it does in 4th. But it doesn't. because you're hanging axles, wheels, and tires, off of the tranny and a lower ratio effectively increases the losses from that additional weight. That is why a dyno will typically show you lower numbers in 1st and 2nd gear.

I said all of that just to say... if you were to take both of our cars and strap them on the dyno in 2nd gear. it would still show that you have a power advantage, because the dyno tries to eliminate gearing from the equation. but if you could see the RAW numbers being put to the ground by each of our cars in 2nd gear you'd see that there was no 32whp advantage

Or in our race from 40-62mph u was +20%, then 62-73 u was @ 16%, then 73-87 u was +25%, then 87-106 we were even and 106+ u was +5%

LOL! I'm gonna get u back for that one

[1civic]

Damn I feel like i'm in school... Moseley are you saying since you make power faster it will over come the 32hp in which his dyno shows? I'm just trying to understand the method you speak of.. If he switched only to a 6speed the gearing factor would be eliminated correct? His whole power curve would shift, peak power being more or less?

[Moseley]

not really... just saying that due to his gear ratios, on the street at 40mph you can take his torque curve, cut it down to 80% of what it really is and overlay it with mine to see which car is putting down more power.

[112480]

not really... just saying that due to his gear ratios, on the street at 40mph you can take his torque curve, cut it down to 80% of what it really is and overlay it with mine to see which car is putting down more power.

And TRUST me, at 40mph(5,000rpms) on a 5 speed; Moseley was definetly putting down more power! LOL! I wanst even at 200whp and 180wtq yet at 5000rpms on a 40 roll with the 5 speed.LOL! I guarentee he was at at least 215-225whp on a 40roll!

Oh btw, this statement is IN NO WAY AN EXCUSE FOR THE RACE, MOSELEY BEAT ME ALL THREE TIMES B/C HE HAS THE FASTER CAR!!

[1civic]

not really... just saying that due to his gear ratios, on the street at 40mph you can take his torque curve, cut it down to 80% of what it really is and overlay it with mine to see which car is putting down more power.

ok, yes I know that much..lol, you brainy'acks get in depth and it gets hard to decipher..

[Vteckidd]

Damn I feel like i'm in school... Moseley are you saying since you make power faster it will over come the 32hp in which his dyno shows? I'm just trying to understand the method you speak of.. If he switched only to a 6speed the gearing factor would be eliminated correct? His whole power curve would shift, peak power being more or less?

the problem with Dyno jets has always been that they TRY to really factor everything in but they cant. They are too easy to manipulate and arent really AS ACCURATE as you want them to be. They are an inertia Dyno not a load based dyno which ideally is what you want.

The way a dynojet works is it calculates how fast you turn the roller in a certain time frame and calculates your hp that way.

Force = Mass x Acceleration

Basically the dyno drum weighs a certain weight (usually 2500-3000 lbs) , it turns at a certain speed for a certain time, uses RPM, and then for lack of a super long explanation, it calculates hp and tq.

The problem with the Dynojets is it negates gearing, and gearing can really effect the TQ and powerband. A car with a 4.4 will dyno differently if you put a 4.9 in it. Tire pressure will effect HP, tire size will effect HP, etc. You wanna make 5 more whp, pump your tires up to 50PSI.

What Mose is talking about is taking the graph as a whole of his car versus gregs car, calculating the gearing differences and measuring HP that way. Basically Mosely in second gear at 5000 rpms makes XXXwhp versus greg at 5000RPMs makes XXXwhp.

Dynojets dont take into effect gear ratios, it tries to negate them or overcompensate for them.

"Area under the curve". Greg may have made 32whp more PEAK, but you can quickly make up for that difference with gearing with a much lower hp producing motor, which you wont see on a dynojet

[112480]

ok, yes I know that much..lol, you brainy'acks get in depth and it gets hard to decipher..

What, u thought we were just a bunch of "roll racers"? LOL!

[Vteckidd]

Easiest way to explain this is think of a turbo car. When someone says "i make 500whp" the instant response is WOW THATS A LOT OF POWER.

Then someone says i make 300whp, people say "oh thats average"

Then when the 300whp car beats the 500whp car people go "WHY?"

If the 300whp car makes 300whp from 2500-7000rpms, and the 500whp car makes 200whp from 2500-6500, then from 6500-7000 makes 500whp, the 300whp car is MUCH FASTER. Its much faster all over the place, except for a VERY small part of the graph. the 300whp car makes 100whp more for 4000rpms, which is 90% of the graph and pull. Then you can factor in gearing, like where someone is at in their individual gear at what time and at what RPM, then it gets even more of an advantage.

Thats the easiest wat in my mind to explain it

(BTW i learned all this in EFI 101, so i recommend taking the class if you can when it comes here. Its pretty awesome)

[Moseley]

And TRUST me, at 40mph(5,000rpms) on a 5 speed; Moseley was definetly putting down more power! LOL! I wanst even at 200whp and 180wtq yet at 5000rpms on a 40 roll with the 5 speed.LOL! I guarentee he was at at least 215-225whp on a 40roll!

Oh btw, this statement is IN NO WAY AN EXCUSE FOR THE RACE, MOSELEY BEAT ME ALL THREE TIMES B/C HE HAS THE FASTER CAR!!

Gregg I wouldn't say I had the faster car... from 40mph yes I did and probably from less than 40mph too. But beyond 40mph it would be a toss up, depending upon the starting speed... with higher speeds favoring your car more due to the raw power.

50 roll both in 2nd. probably a closer race. 60 roll with me in 3rd, you would win by a good car or two. 70 roll with us both in 3rd, I would probably win by a car, anything higher you would win for sure.

[Moseley]

the problem with Dyno jets has always been that they TRY to really factor everything in but they cant. They are too easy to manipulate and arent really AS ACCURATE as you want them to be. They are an inertia Dyno not a load based dyno which ideally is what you want.

The way a dynojet works is it calculates how fast you turn the roller in a certain time frame and calculates your hp that way.

Force = Mass x Acceleration

Basically the dyno drum weighs a certain weight (usually 2500-3000 lbs) , it turns at a certain speed for a certain time, uses RPM, and then for lack of a super long explanation, it calculates hp and tq.

The problem with the Dynojets is it negates gearing, and gearing can really effect the TQ and powerband. A car with a 4.4 will dyno differently if you put a 4.9 in it. Tire pressure will effect HP, tire size will effect HP, etc. You wanna make 5 more whp, pump your tires up to 50PSI.

What Mose is talking about is taking the graph as a whole of his car versus gregs car, calculating the gearing differences and measuring HP that way. Basically Mosely in second gear at 5000 rpms makes XXXwhp versus greg at 5000RPMs makes XXXwhp.

Dynojets dont take into effect gear ratios, it tries to negate them or overcompensate for them.

"Area under the curve". Greg may have made 32whp more PEAK, but you can quickly make up for that difference with gearing with a much lower hp producing motor, which you wont see on a dynojet

[David88vert]

A dyno is a tuning tool, and any dyno can be manipulated. You don't race dyno numbers, so don't worry about them. Just use them to help you find maximum cylinder pressure to make horsepower and torque.

[David88vert]

(BTW i learned all this in EFI 101, so i recommend taking the class if you can when it comes here. Its pretty awesome)

It is a good course; however, they don't have any classes planned for here on their calendar. The alternative is here:
http://efituningtech.com/

[Vteckidd]

what we basically find out is 90% of all the shops have dynojets because they are FAR Cheaper than the dyno like Forged has. Dynojets are $30,000-40,000 for 2-4wd. The Forged Load Bearing dyno is $80,000-100,000 but you can do so much more with the Load bearing. Tuning on a dynojet is an educated guess in reality, where with a load based dyno you can calculate brake specific fuel consumption, injector duty cycle, etc PER RPM which you cant do with a dynojet

[112480]

the problem with Dyno jets has always been that they TRY to really factor everything in but they cant. They are too easy to manipulate and arent really AS ACCURATE as you want them to be. They are an inertia Dyno not a load based dyno which ideally is what you want.

The way a dynojet works is it calculates how fast you turn the roller in a certain time frame and calculates your hp that way.

Force = Mass x Acceleration

Basically the dyno drum weighs a certain weight (usually 2500-3000 lbs) , it turns at a certain speed for a certain time, uses RPM, and then for lack of a super long explanation, it calculates hp and tq.

The problem with the Dynojets is it negates gearing, and gearing can really effect the TQ and powerband. A car with a 4.4 will dyno differently if you put a 4.9 in it. Tire pressure will effect HP, tire size will effect HP, etc. You wanna make 5 more whp, pump your tires up to 50PSI.

What Mose is talking about is taking the graph as a whole of his car versus gregs car, calculating the gearing differences and measuring HP that way. Basically Mosely in second gear at 5000 rpms makes XXXwhp versus greg at 5000RPMs makes XXXwhp.

Dynojets dont take into effect gear ratios, it tries to negate them or overcompensate for them.

"Area under the curve". Greg may have made 32whp more PEAK, but you can quickly make up for that difference with gearing with a much lower hp producing motor, which you wont see on a dynojet

Whats funny mike is that we put 50psi in the tires when it was on the dyno just to see if it would make more and it DIDNT! charles was kinda shocked but it didnt make any more power at 50psi than it did at 30psi. And mike, what would happen if we could find out the EXACT load on the street and was able to apply that to the dyno???? This is why some people would argue that street tuning a car is better than dyno tuning, b/c the load is already there on the when you street tune unlike the dyno.

Then it should be LOAD+MASS x Accleration. right?

[Vteckidd]

A dyno is a tuning tool, and any dyno can be manipulated. You don't race dyno numbers, so don't worry about them. Just use them to help you find maximum cylinder pressure to make horsepower and torque.

which is what Don from DFE taught me. YOu really dont care about whp, you are searching for maximum cylinder pressure. At that point your motor is max VE, and you cant physically make any more power, and you have found what you are really searching for which ISNT peak WHP, its PEAK TQ :P

[Vteckidd]

It is a good course; however, they don't have any classes planned for here on their calendar. The alternative is here:
http://efituningtech.com/

yeah i took mine 4 years ago. It will usually change once we get near may or june they usually add a date in in the SE. But i recommend any of those classes, its a good thing to just LEARN. It DOESNT make you a tuner, but what it does is really explain the science behind our hobby. Like when you look at a Crome map, what do those numbers mean? What is injector duty cycle , what is volumetric efficiency, BSFC, all kinds of other stuff that normally id go "WHAT?".

I learned a lot from it

[112480]

50 roll both in 2nd. probably a closer race. 60 roll with me in 3rd, you would win by a good car or two. 70 roll with us both in 3rd, I would probably win by a car, anything higher you would win for sure.

This is true, but its much better to meet on even ground. i.e both of us at 40mph and roll out

[Moseley]

Whats funny mike is that we put 50psi in the tires when it was on the dyno just to see if it would make more and it DIDNT! charles was kinda shocked but it didnt make any more power at 50psi than it did at 30psi.

I don't think 30psi to 50psi would make a difference. but if you had a big tire like a slick @ 10psi it would be interesting to see the difference between 10psi and 30psi

which is what Don from DFE taught me. YOu really dont care about whp, you are searching for maximum cylinder pressure. At that point your motor is max VE, and you cant physically make any more power, and you have found what you are really searching for which ISNT peak WHP, its PEAK TQ :P

Maybe in a B series where peak TQ can be @ 8000+ rpms LOL. With a K, unless it is an all out drag motor, peak torque is not really usable. the curve is way more important.

edit: variable cam timing of course is why that is all different. on a B it would make perfect sense to me to tune the shit out of a motor (not just ECU tuning, parts tuning) in search for peak torque. then once you find that you move on from that point. But with a variable cam it is a lot more difficult to find a single sweet spot. you need to find parts that work well over a broad range.

[112480]

At that point your motor is max VE, and you cant physically make any more power, and you have found what you are really searching for which ISNT peak WHP, its PEAK TQ :P

And yet still on the flip side in a roll race the peak TQ will not help you as much as the peak WHP but in a TRACK 1/4 mile race, TQ is EVERYTHING! BUT at the same time not the onlything.

[Vteckidd]

Whats funny mike is that we put 50psi in the tires when it was on the dyno just to see if it would make more and it DIDNT! charles was kinda shocked but it didnt make any more power at 50psi than it did at 30psi. And mike, what would happen if we could find out the EXACT load on the street and was able to apply that to the dyno???? This is why some people would argue that street tuning a car is better than dyno tuning, b/c the load is already there on the when you street tune unlike the dyno.

Then it should be LOAD+MASS x Accleration. right?

it doesnt ALWAYS change, but i have seen it change before. A lot of that comes down to just trying to find an extra 5whp and its almost impossible to get the exact number again and again back to back on a dyno. Like mosely said theres too many other factors. So at 30psi your engine oil was 5 degrees warmer than at 50psi, or your IATs were 5 degrees off, etc. Too many factors.

Dont quote me but
Work = Force x Distance

Power = Work / Time

hp = rpm x torque / 5252

However thats not exactly how a dynojet figures stuff out as it can calculate HP WITHOUT a tq reading (ever done a run where the tach signal doesnt work, it still displays a HP number)

Youre also not MOVING a dyno drum, your spinning it, so it has some sort of built in mass inertia calculation(moment of inertia something like that) that it uses to calculate hp instead of the normal way.

[David88vert]

what we basically find out is 90% of all the shops have dynojets because they are FAR Cheaper than the dyno like Forged has. Dynojets are $30,000-40,000 for 2-4wd. The Forged Load Bearing dyno is $80,000-100,000 but you can do so much more with the Load bearing. Tuning on a dynojet is an educated guess in reality, where with a load based dyno you can calculate brake specific fuel consumption, injector duty cycle, etc PER RPM which you cant do with a dynojet

Forged has a Dyno Dynamics model and it is my favorite, as it is the easiest dyno that I have used. It is much more expensive, but worth it in my opinion.
Tuning with either a DynoJet or a Dyno Dynamics is the same - you cannot hold a car in high rpm on the Dyno Dynamics anymore than on a DynoJet. When it comes to tuning at the high end of the scale, you will always be taking reading and extrapolating the data to make your map.
BTW - if you took the class 4 years ago, you probably went to Forged for the class and it was probably taught by Chris Macellaro - who know owns EFI Tuning Technologies.

[Vteckidd]

Maybe in a B series where peak TQ can be @ 8000+ rpms LOL. With a K, unless it is an all out drag motor, peak torque is not really usable. the curve is way more important

Well im also talking about on an engine dyno vs chassis dyno. Usually in Bs peak TQ is around VTEC or slightly after then it almost always falls (1.8 to 2.0 liter motors at least). Very rarely does a B motor make peak whp at peak TQ especially one revving to 9000+. But its like a slingshot, you keep increasing TQ you almost always increase peak hp, usually.

At if you reach the point of peak TQ, you have pretty much maxed out your cylinder pressure, which means the motor will not make any more power unless you change something. Ironically john from hytech and Don always said that the best motor (at the time) was a 2.0l (k20 or B20vtec) because it was very easy to get them to run over 100% VE. The 2.2 and 2.4s AT THE TIME didnt have the cams, headers, etc to get there. Obviously times have changed.

[Vteckidd]

Forged has a Dyno Dynamics model and it is my favorite, as it is the easiest dyno that I have used. It is much more expensive, but worth it in my opinion.
Tuning with either a DynoJet or a Dyno Dynamics is the same - you cannot hold a car in high rpm on the Dyno Dynamics anymore than on a DynoJet. When it comes to tuning at the high end of the scale, you will always be taking reading and extrapolating the data to make your map.

correct but the way i interpreted it (and i am NOT a tuner) is that on a dyno dynamics or load bearing it is MUCH easier to tune and predict the rest of the map, than it is on a Dynojet. Obviously you cant hold a car at redline and tune it (i mean you can but BOOM). But the dyno jet its much harder to keep things consistent vs the dyno dynamics.

But obviously people like Scotty, Morris , Dan Willie etc can figure out how to tune safely on a dynojet so im sure theres pros and cons

BTW - if you took the class 4 years ago, you probably went to Forged for the class and it was probably taught by Chris Macellaro - who know owns EFI Tuning Technologies.

That was my instructor, and he was a great guy. Very knowledgable

[Vteckidd]

And yet still on the flip side in a roll race the peak TQ will not help you as much as the peak WHP but in a TRACK 1/4 mile race, TQ is EVERYTHING! BUT at the same time not the onlything.

they both kinda go hand in hand, and theres other variables. HP usually effects TQ, and vice versa.

I mean if TQ didnt matter then 600CC motorcycles would rape everything. They make like 80Ft/lbs, but its actually not that hard to beat a 600cc bike, because why they accelerate fast, they dont have the force (tq) a car does.

But now im getting way outside the scope of my knowledge haha

[David88vert]

it doesnt ALWAYS change, but i have seen it change before. A lot of that comes down to just trying to find an extra 5whp and its almost impossible to get the exact number again and again back to back on a dyno. Like mosely said theres too many other factors. So at 30psi your engine oil was 5 degrees warmer than at 50psi, or your IATs were 5 degrees off, etc. Too many factors.

Youre also not MOVING a dyno drum, your spinning it, so it has some sort of built in mass inertia calculation(moment of inertia something like that) that it uses to calculate hp instead of the normal way.

I have not seen an issue of tire pressure affecting a dyno output, but I do know that Dynapaks readings are direct - and remove the tire from the equation. Matt (the HITman) recommended Dynopaks to me, as he believes that the tire can affect readings. His opinion definitely trumps mine.

[Vteckidd]

edit: variable cam timing of course is why that is all different. on a B it would make perfect sense to me to tune the shit out of a motor (not just ECU tuning, parts tuning) in search for peak torque. then once you find that you move on from that point. But with a variable cam it is a lot more difficult to find a single sweet spot. you need to find parts that work well over a broad range.

interesting youre right i forgot about that. Yeah i would assume thats much different to tune because a B Series is constant, and a K is variable. K seems to give you more control.

[Vteckidd]

I have not seen an issue of tire pressure affecting a dyno output, but I do know that Dynapaks readings are direct - and remove the tire from the equation. Matt (the HITman) recommended Dynopaks to me, as he believes that the tire can affect readings. His opinion definitely trumps mine.

Yeah then there are the dynopacs which require no wheels haha Well i believe the TIRE pressure issue with dynojets was effecting the contact patch. Some people said that running rediculous amounts of negative camber can change hp output as well.

[Moseley]

At if you reach the point of peak TQ, you have pretty much maxed out your cylinder pressure, which means the motor will not make any more power unless you change something. Ironically john from hytech and Don always said that the best motor (at the time) was a 2.0l (k20 or B20vtec) because it was very easy to get them to run over 100% VE. The 2.2 and 2.4s AT THE TIME didnt have the cams, headers, etc to get there. Obviously times have changed.

Yes times have definitely changed. I think a certain heavy all motor car should show up at mainstream for a dyno day. no air filter, race gas, 4" wide tires, etc... and make everyone cry.

[112480]

in a B series where peak TQ can be @ 8000+ rpms LOL. With a K, unless it is an all out drag motor, peak torque is not really usable. the curve is way more important.

edit: variable cam timing of course is why that is all different. on a B it would make perfect sense to me to tune the shit out of a motor (not just ECU tuning, parts tuning) in search for peak torque. then once you find that you move on from that point. But with a variable cam it is a lot more difficult to find a single sweet spot. you need to find parts that work well over a broad range.

Here Moseley, u and mike can used my old....um CURRENT dyno graph for comparison. mike post up a B series graph with similar numbers

[David88vert]

correct but the way i interpreted it (and i am NOT a tuner) is that on a dyno dynamics or load bearing it is MUCH easier to tune and predict the rest of the map, than it is on a Dynojet. Obviously you cant hold a car at redline and tune it (i mean you can but BOOM). But the dyno jet its much harder to keep things consistent vs the dyno dynamics.

Yes, that is the trick - the Dyno Dynamics makes it much easier to tune the lower rpms - and then with a couple of pulls, you can get a fairly close base map quickly, then all you have to do is look to tweak it a little.
With the DynoJet, my method is to work up in 500 rpm intervals, and build the bottom first. I learned it from Matt, and it keeps the risk of popping a motor down. I also keep a buffer to maximum cylinder pressure, so while it gives up a few hp, it keeps motors a little safer.
Right now, I am paying to have Bob Kurgan retune my car, just to get hold of one of his maps, to compare to my own tunes. He is the top AEM tuner in my opinion, so its always good to look for new methods and practices.

[Vteckidd]

Greg, this is an example i found to make the most sense

Horsepower is what actually moves your car down the street or around the track, and Torque is what tows a car trailer. Someone with high torque at low rpm would be a weightlifter on a bicycle. Someone with relatively high horsepower would be Lance Armstrong. The weightlifter may be able to tow a heavy load slowly, but Lance can maintain a decent torque at a high rpm. Guess who wins a race?

Just some examples i found. You can always look at Diesel trucks too, they make 600ft lbs/tq at 2000rpms and redline at 3000.

[David88vert]

Yeah then there are the dynopacs which require no wheels haha Well i believe the TIRE pressure issue with dynojets was effecting the contact patch. Some people said that running rediculous amounts of negative camber can change hp output as well.

Not if the car is strapped down properly. If you have enough traction not to slip, then the only other factor would be tire sizing. If you are on a negative camber, the edge of your tire would give you a very slight change in tire sizing - that;s the only other factor that I can think of, other than the obvious traction factor.