turbo civic putting in work

[Moseley]

not really... just saying that due to his gear ratios, on the street at 40mph you can take his torque curve, cut it down to 80% of what it really is and overlay it with mine to see which car is putting down more power.

[112480]

not really... just saying that due to his gear ratios, on the street at 40mph you can take his torque curve, cut it down to 80% of what it really is and overlay it with mine to see which car is putting down more power.

And TRUST me, at 40mph(5,000rpms) on a 5 speed; Moseley was definetly putting down more power! LOL! I wanst even at 200whp and 180wtq yet at 5000rpms on a 40 roll with the 5 speed.LOL! I guarentee he was at at least 215-225whp on a 40roll!

Oh btw, this statement is IN NO WAY AN EXCUSE FOR THE RACE, MOSELEY BEAT ME ALL THREE TIMES B/C HE HAS THE FASTER CAR!!

[Vteckidd]

Easiest way to explain this is think of a turbo car. When someone says "i make 500whp" the instant response is WOW THATS A LOT OF POWER.

Then someone says i make 300whp, people say "oh thats average"

Then when the 300whp car beats the 500whp car people go "WHY?"

If the 300whp car makes 300whp from 2500-7000rpms, and the 500whp car makes 200whp from 2500-6500, then from 6500-7000 makes 500whp, the 300whp car is MUCH FASTER. Its much faster all over the place, except for a VERY small part of the graph. the 300whp car makes 100whp more for 4000rpms, which is 90% of the graph and pull. Then you can factor in gearing, like where someone is at in their individual gear at what time and at what RPM, then it gets even more of an advantage.

Thats the easiest wat in my mind to explain it

(BTW i learned all this in EFI 101, so i recommend taking the class if you can when it comes here. Its pretty awesome)

[David88vert]

(BTW i learned all this in EFI 101, so i recommend taking the class if you can when it comes here. Its pretty awesome)

It is a good course; however, they don't have any classes planned for here on their calendar. The alternative is here:
http://efituningtech.com/

[Vteckidd]

It is a good course; however, they don't have any classes planned for here on their calendar. The alternative is here:
http://efituningtech.com/

yeah i took mine 4 years ago. It will usually change once we get near may or june they usually add a date in in the SE. But i recommend any of those classes, its a good thing to just LEARN. It DOESNT make you a tuner, but what it does is really explain the science behind our hobby. Like when you look at a Crome map, what do those numbers mean? What is injector duty cycle , what is volumetric efficiency, BSFC, all kinds of other stuff that normally id go "WHAT?".

I learned a lot from it

[Moseley]

And TRUST me, at 40mph(5,000rpms) on a 5 speed; Moseley was definetly putting down more power! LOL! I wanst even at 200whp and 180wtq yet at 5000rpms on a 40 roll with the 5 speed.LOL! I guarentee he was at at least 215-225whp on a 40roll!

Oh btw, this statement is IN NO WAY AN EXCUSE FOR THE RACE, MOSELEY BEAT ME ALL THREE TIMES B/C HE HAS THE FASTER CAR!!

Gregg I wouldn't say I had the faster car... from 40mph yes I did and probably from less than 40mph too. But beyond 40mph it would be a toss up, depending upon the starting speed... with higher speeds favoring your car more due to the raw power.

50 roll both in 2nd. probably a closer race. 60 roll with me in 3rd, you would win by a good car or two. 70 roll with us both in 3rd, I would probably win by a car, anything higher you would win for sure.

[112480]

50 roll both in 2nd. probably a closer race. 60 roll with me in 3rd, you would win by a good car or two. 70 roll with us both in 3rd, I would probably win by a car, anything higher you would win for sure.

This is true, but its much better to meet on even ground. i.e both of us at 40mph and roll out

[Vteckidd]

what we basically find out is 90% of all the shops have dynojets because they are FAR Cheaper than the dyno like Forged has. Dynojets are $30,000-40,000 for 2-4wd. The Forged Load Bearing dyno is $80,000-100,000 but you can do so much more with the Load bearing. Tuning on a dynojet is an educated guess in reality, where with a load based dyno you can calculate brake specific fuel consumption, injector duty cycle, etc PER RPM which you cant do with a dynojet

[David88vert]

what we basically find out is 90% of all the shops have dynojets because they are FAR Cheaper than the dyno like Forged has. Dynojets are $30,000-40,000 for 2-4wd. The Forged Load Bearing dyno is $80,000-100,000 but you can do so much more with the Load bearing. Tuning on a dynojet is an educated guess in reality, where with a load based dyno you can calculate brake specific fuel consumption, injector duty cycle, etc PER RPM which you cant do with a dynojet

Forged has a Dyno Dynamics model and it is my favorite, as it is the easiest dyno that I have used. It is much more expensive, but worth it in my opinion.
Tuning with either a DynoJet or a Dyno Dynamics is the same - you cannot hold a car in high rpm on the Dyno Dynamics anymore than on a DynoJet. When it comes to tuning at the high end of the scale, you will always be taking reading and extrapolating the data to make your map.
BTW - if you took the class 4 years ago, you probably went to Forged for the class and it was probably taught by Chris Macellaro - who know owns EFI Tuning Technologies.

[Vteckidd]

Forged has a Dyno Dynamics model and it is my favorite, as it is the easiest dyno that I have used. It is much more expensive, but worth it in my opinion.
Tuning with either a DynoJet or a Dyno Dynamics is the same - you cannot hold a car in high rpm on the Dyno Dynamics anymore than on a DynoJet. When it comes to tuning at the high end of the scale, you will always be taking reading and extrapolating the data to make your map.

correct but the way i interpreted it (and i am NOT a tuner) is that on a dyno dynamics or load bearing it is MUCH easier to tune and predict the rest of the map, than it is on a Dynojet. Obviously you cant hold a car at redline and tune it (i mean you can but BOOM). But the dyno jet its much harder to keep things consistent vs the dyno dynamics.

But obviously people like Scotty, Morris , Dan Willie etc can figure out how to tune safely on a dynojet so im sure theres pros and cons

BTW - if you took the class 4 years ago, you probably went to Forged for the class and it was probably taught by Chris Macellaro - who know owns EFI Tuning Technologies.

That was my instructor, and he was a great guy. Very knowledgable

[David88vert]

correct but the way i interpreted it (and i am NOT a tuner) is that on a dyno dynamics or load bearing it is MUCH easier to tune and predict the rest of the map, than it is on a Dynojet. Obviously you cant hold a car at redline and tune it (i mean you can but BOOM). But the dyno jet its much harder to keep things consistent vs the dyno dynamics.

Yes, that is the trick - the Dyno Dynamics makes it much easier to tune the lower rpms - and then with a couple of pulls, you can get a fairly close base map quickly, then all you have to do is look to tweak it a little.
With the DynoJet, my method is to work up in 500 rpm intervals, and build the bottom first. I learned it from Matt, and it keeps the risk of popping a motor down. I also keep a buffer to maximum cylinder pressure, so while it gives up a few hp, it keeps motors a little safer.
Right now, I am paying to have Bob Kurgan retune my car, just to get hold of one of his maps, to compare to my own tunes. He is the top AEM tuner in my opinion, so its always good to look for new methods and practices.

[Moseley]

I remember Ed (Senf) saying he likes dynojets for tuning anything other than WOT. The roller does a good job of simulating loads and decel etc. that the car would see on the street. But I could imagine if you were building a road race engine or drag engine you'd want to maximize torque under WOT in a certain rpm range, and a dynapack is probably best for that?

[112480]

Yes, that is the trick - the Dyno Dynamics makes it much easier to tune the lower rpms - and then with a couple of pulls, you can get a fairly close base map quickly, then all you have to do is look to tweak it a little.
With the DynoJet, my method is to work up in 500 rpm intervals, and build the bottom first. I learned it from Matt, and it keeps the risk of popping a motor down. I also keep a buffer to maximum cylinder pressure, so while it gives up a few hp, it keeps motors a little safer.
Right now, I am paying to have Bob Kurgan retune my car, just to get hold of one of his maps, to compare to my own tunes. He is the top AEM tuner in my opinion, so its always good to look for new methods and practices.

So david88vert i have a question. why is it the dyno dynamics usually reads what 5-7% lower than a dyno jet given at some point the have the same properties for measuring hp and tq???

[1civic]

not really... just saying that due to his gear ratios, on the street at 40mph you can take his torque curve, cut it down to 80% of what it really is and overlay it with mine to see which car is putting down more power.

ok, yes I know that much..lol, you brainy'acks get in depth and it gets hard to decipher..

[112480]

ok, yes I know that much..lol, you brainy'acks get in depth and it gets hard to decipher..

What, u thought we were just a bunch of "roll racers"? LOL!