Gospel of Judas

[trini_gsr]

Whenever I reason through matters of a spiritual nature I refer to Christ for my answer. First in His example which is the perfect example for ALL and second in His Word which is perfect in wisdom.
His example always encompassed BOTH of these priciples. He always answered with an IT IS WRITTEN, or THUS SAYETH THE LORD. He always used the Scripture for His answer.
Christ IS the Word. And the Word was made flesh, and dwelt among us, (and we beheld his glory, the glory as of the only begotten of the Father,) full of grace and truth.

Your answers to my questions utilize NEITHER of those principles but rely instead on human reasoning. I am deeply troubled by that fact. I am also troubled by the fact that your reasoning in some case contradicts the plain Word of Scripture sharply. Keep in mind I heartily endorse our God given freedom of concience and you are free to choose whatever ‘belief system’ that you wish and the subsequent outcome of that system…BUT…what does the Bible/Christ our example say with regard to the questions asked?

lol...i knew when you asked me those questions, this is how you were going to respond. and i am sorry that you are troubled by the fact that i think rationally about these subjects. but it goes back to what someone else said in this thread - you can't use the Bible as evidence for the validity of the Bible...

religion has been used to pull the wool over people's eyes throughout history, precisely because people are afraid to turn a critical eye to their beliefs. when i was a teenager and i came to find out how black people learned about christianity largely through the vehicle of slavery, i felt compelled to take a scrutinizing look at the religion that was used as one of the tools of enslaving my ancestors. what this meant was, i had to put aside all notions and biases that i picked up growing up, and critically look at christianity exactly as it stood...and it wasn't the easiest thing to do.

doing so put me on the road i am on now...and i have learned a great deal about the nature of spirituality and religion since then. probably the biggest lesson i've learned is that the "path to God" is a personal one, shaped by your experiences as you go through life. and it's not about the end result, nearly as much as it's about just trodding the path, because that's how you build that personal relationship with God, which is what's REALLY important.

the key thing we disagree on, i think, is that i no longer just accept the Bible as a 100% accurate document without question. when you study history and the evolution of the Bible, and see how man has had his hand in manipulating it, as well as the true origins for several of the ideas found there, i don't see how you can. you say we shouldn't rely on reason...but it's my opinion God gave us brains for a purpose.

it's cool that you look to the Bible for answers on all things spiritual, as that's your chosen guidebook. the Bible is excellent for that. what i am saying is that when a muslim does the same with the Koran, or a buddhist with his teachings from Buddha, or a witchdoctor with his oral traditions...really and truly...nobody has any real grounds to say one is right and the others are wrong. the only source of validation is experience - which is culturally shaped and totally subjective. all you can do is use what works best for you to build your relationship with God. that's all i'm saying...

[metalman]

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...how you build that personal relationship with God, which is what's REALLY important.

the key thing we disagree on, i think, is that i no longer just accept the Bible as a 100% accurate document without question.

Pretty hard to build much of a relationship with God our Creator if we ignore, trivialize, or do not believe His Word. The Bible and Christ are synonymous, to dismiss one even a small percentage as "not accurate" is to dismiss the other in the same sense.
Indeed...as I suspected when reading your paragraphs of human logic, we are miles apart then.
I am sorry you have lost faith in Gods Word...whatever the reason.

In the beginning was the Word, and the Word was with God, and the Word was God. John 1:1

He that is of God heareth God's words: ye therefore hear them not, because ye are not of God. John 8:47

And take the helmet of salvation, and the sword of the Spirit, which is the word of God: Eph 6:17

So then faith cometh by hearing, and hearing by the word of God. Rom 10:17

But he (Jesus)answered and said, It is written, Man shall not live by bread alone, but by every word that proceedeth out of the mouth of God. Matt 4:4

Every word of God is pure: he is a shield unto them that put their trust in him.
Add thou not unto his words, lest he reprove thee, and thou be found a liar.
Prov 30:5-6

The grass withereth, the flower fadeth: but the word of our God shall stand for ever. Is 40:8

For the word of God is quick, and powerful, and sharper than any twoedged sword, piercing even to the dividing asunder of soul and spirit, and of the joints and marrow, and is a discerner of the thoughts and intents of the heart. Heb 4:12

He that saith, I know him, and keepeth not his commandments, is a liar, and the truth is not in him.
But whoso keepeth his word, in him verily is the love of God perfected: hereby know we that we are in him 1 John 2:4,5

[trini_gsr]

Pretty hard to build much of a relationship with God our Creator if we ignore, trivialize, or do not believe His Word. The Bible and Christ are synonymous, to dismiss one even a small percentage as "not accurate" is to dismiss the other in the same sense.
Indeed...as I suspected when reading your paragraphs of human logic, we are miles apart then.
I am sorry you have lost faith in Gods Word...whatever the reason.

i guess i have lost faith that God's Word is only contained within the Bible. the experiences i have had just don't allow me to remain that naive or arrogant any longer. i have long passed that point of naivete on my journey. But I don't ignore or trivialise the Bible, nor do I ignore or trivialise anybody else's beliefs or relationship with the Creator, just because it doesn't align with my own.

Maybe it's just an ego problem we have in the west where we expect everyone to conform to our way of doing things...but the world is a really big place. Christians believe they can look to nature to find evidence of God's handiwork and design. Just like different cultures have developed different languages to communicate with each other and describe life as they experience it...what makes you think the same wouldn't go for religions. I will take it a step further and note that religions frequently borrow from one another, as many of the ideas in Christianity are not original.

It's like looking through one window on a wall in a house, and believing you can describe everything outside. You might see mountains, someone else looking through a different window might see trees...nobody's view is less valid than the next. But it's all a part of the totality of what exists outside the house - we can't see it because we are on the inside looking out. All religions to me fundamentally are different cultural views of our Creator.

This isn't a simple matter of 1+1=2. lol, even in that example, that assumes a base 10 number system - 1+1 = 10 in binary. But because you are unwilling to objectively examine christianity, and you scrutinize every other religion with a bias...we'll just have to agree to disagree.

It also seems you have a fundamental problem with human logic. Again, God gave us brains for a reason. Logic is not a sin. We are made in God's image and have the same abilities he does, just obviously not on as grand a scale. God gave us our cognition so we could USE it to ponder this universe that we live in, evolve (a dirty word apparently, lol) and grow. Not just believe blindly and remain stagnant.

[metalman]

i guess i have lost faith that God's Word is only contained within the Bible.....

....Maybe it's just an ego problem we have in the west where we expect everyone to conform to our way of doing things...but the world is a really big place.

....All religions to me fundamentally are different cultural views of our Creator....

I have no problem with logic or human reasoning as long as it falls within the boundaries of our Creators revealed will and truth. Your right, God created within us a brain so that we could CHOOSE to follow Him or not. He gave us intelligence and understanding so that we might appreciate Him and learn of Him in addition to enjoying what He created for us.
As His Word says, "Choose ye this day whom ye will serve...." God or self.

The "narrow way" is God's, Christ Jesus our Creators religion...its HIS Gospel truth, not mine. I didnt author it, I didnt design it, I didnt do a consultation on it, I get NO credit for any of it. Its NOT mine. Because there is but ONE Creator God there is but ONE truth. Conforming to our Creator's Gospel truth is NOT an invention of the west. Conforming to the principles of Christ is the religion HE authored. Its the whole reason Christ came here and died. It is in fact what is BEST for all mankind. Therin lies the problem for sinful man. Man thinks he knows best. If you or anyone has an issue with God's religion your issue is with the Author.

Mankind prefers his own reasoning, questioning the wisdom of Gods design, questioning Gods infinite plan, putting his own wisdom and logic above Gods revealed will, above His Word. "For thou hast said in thine heart, I will ascend into heaven, I will exalt my throne above the stars of God:..." and that is the seed of Lucifers rebellion and the source of all evil in this world.

Your right, the world is a big place, so is the universe, but God is the Creator and Lord of it ALL. There is none other. His Word & truth endures forever. His Word & His example show us clearly that all religions are NOT authored by Him. His Word and revealed will also show that all worship is NOT accepted by him. Even some that worship in His name will be told to "depart" and are "spewed out of His mouth.." in the day he returns.

Choosing to follow ones own will, or put ones own logic, reasoning, intellect etc ABOVE Gods "seemth right unto a man but the end thereof is destruction"

There are only two paths to follow for ALL humanity. Those who walk in 'perfection' with Christ follow all the 'light'/truth they know, if but a little.
His light and truth is being spread across the entire world....when that work is concluded He will return to "gather the faithful" that have kept His word. Those who havent will be judged accordingly.