Originally Posted by trini_gsr
The last part is true.
Spirituality means different things to differnt people....hmmmm....
then the question for you is do all roads/religions lead to heaven? Is there but One Creator God? Are there many?? Are we all unaccountable to any one authority outside of ourselves? Or does nationality/race/ethnicity/culture take precedance? Does the gospel have cultural bounds??
i see where you're going with your line of questioning. i'll answer them one at a time:
do all roads/religions lead to heaven? - the idea of "heaven" in the christian sense doesn't even translate over to all roads/religions. the afterlife has different meanings to different religions/cultures. look at how diverse life and the human experience is RIGHT NOW...what makes you think that whatever happens after death is going to be experienced in the same uniform fashion across all cultures?
Is there but One Creator God? - Yes. although his forms of expression may vary significantly. just doesn't seem wise to assume you can put just one label on something as Infinite and Powerful as God is supposed to be...or stick Him/Her/It in a box.
Are we all unaccountable to any one authority outside of ourselves? - Yes. there's a universal law of cause and effect that affects everything in nature. So yes we are definitely accountable for our actions - as the bible says, you reap what you sow. Some call it karma. Does that necessarily translate into a christian heaven/hell situation for everyone? Personally I don't think so...
Or does nationality/race/ethnicity/culture take precedance? Does the gospel have cultural bounds?? - to say those things take precedence is probably not the best wording...
the thing about any religion system is that it is written with a cultural component. for example, if you speak with an african shaman you'll find that his idea of spirituality is a lot more vast and comprehensive than what ours is in the west. some of the ideas and concepts they teach to kids have no correlation whatsoever in our society today. and vice versa. so their beliefs/writings are going to reflect that...
still...i think the basic message of love for God and love for your fellow man taught in the gospel is universal, and anyone can relate to it. But similar messages can be found in other religions too, like Islam for example.
It boils down to personal experience in the end...and i for one just can't objectively discount someone's experience on how praying to Allah works for them, or how positive thinking works for them, to promote my own about how praying to Jesus works for me. when the logical thing to conclude seems to be that PRAYER WORKS FOR EVERYBODY.
there's an undercurrent to all of these belief systems...so while i use the bible as my moral guide because that's the easiest for me to relate to...i recognize and try to identify that undercurrent when/where i can...
Whenever I reason through matters of a spiritual nature I refer to Christ for my answer. First in His example which is the perfect example for ALL and second in His Word which is perfect in wisdom.i see where you're going with your line of questioning
etc etc etc...
His example always encompassed BOTH of these priciples. He always answered with an IT IS WRITTEN, or THUS SAYETH THE LORD. He always used the Scripture for His answer.
Christ IS the Word. And the Word was made flesh, and dwelt among us, (and we beheld his glory, the glory as of the only begotten of the Father,) full of grace and truth.
Your answers to my questions utilize NEITHER of those principles but rely instead on human reasoning. I am deeply troubled by that fact. I am also troubled by the fact that your reasoning in some case contradicts the plain Word of Scripture sharply. Keep in mind I heartily endorse our God given freedom of concience and you are free to choose whatever ‘belief system’ that you wish and the subsequent outcome of that system…BUT…what does the Bible/Christ our example say with regard to the questions asked?
do all roads/religions lead to heaven? –
There is a way which seemeth right unto a man, but the end thereof are the ways of death. Prov 14:12
Enter ye in at the strait gate: for wide is the gate, and broad is the way, that leadeth to destruction, and many there be which go in thereat: Because strait is the gate, and narrow is the way, which leadeth unto life, and few there be that find it. Matt 7:13,14
Thou wilt shew me the path of life: in thy presence is fulness of joy; at thy right hand there are pleasures for evermore. Ps 16:11
Concerning the works of men, by the word of thy lips I have kept me from the paths of the destroyer. Ps 17:4
And to you who are troubled rest with us, when the Lord Jesus shall be revealed from heaven with his mighty angels, In flaming fire taking vengeance on them that know not God, and that obey not the gospel of our Lord Jesus Christ: Who shall be punished with everlasting destruction from the presence of the Lord, and from the glory of his power;
2 thess 1:7-9
Answer – NO You either know God or you don’t. EVERYONE is one one of TWO paths, one leads to death and destruction, the other to eternal life. ONLY the few find the narrow way that leads to eternal life.
Is there but One Creator God? -
For thus saith the LORD that created the heavens; God himself that formed the earth and made it; he hath established it, he created it not in vain, he formed it to be inhabited: I am the LORD; and there is none else. Isa. 45:18
For by him were all things created, that are in heaven, and that are in earth, visible and invisible, whether they be thrones, or dominions, or principalities, or powers: all things were created by him, and for him: And he is before all things, and by him all things consist.
And sware by him that liveth for ever and ever, who created heaven, and the things that therein are, and the earth, and the things that therein are, and the sea, and the things which are therein…Rev 10:6
For thou shalt worship no other god: for the LORD, whose name is Jealous, is a jealous God: Ex. 34:14
If ye forsake the LORD, and serve strange gods, then he will turn and do you hurt, and consume you, after that he hath done you good. Josh 24:20
But the hour cometh, and now is, when the true worshippers shall worship the Father in spirit and in truth: for the Father seeketh such to worship him.
God is a Spirit: and they that worship him must worship him in spirit and in truth. John 4:23,24
Answer – YES. He identifies Himself. He desires our love, respect & worship. He deserves ALL of that as our Creator. The “forms of expression” you refer to often involve OTHER GODS. This is NOT acceptable according to Scripture. It is true that different people have a different level of understanding according to the light/knowledge they have but rest assured God knows who worships Him in SPIRIT and TRUTH.
Are we all unaccountable to any one authority outside of ourselves? -
He that is not with me is against me; and he that gathereth not with me scattereth abroad.
Wherefore I say unto you, All manner of sin and blasphemy shall be forgiven unto men: but the blasphemy against the Holy Ghost shall not be forgiven unto men.
And whosoever speaketh a word against the Son of man, it shall be forgiven him: but whosoever speaketh against the Holy Ghost, it shall not be forgiven him, neither in this world, neither in the world to come. Matt 12 30-32
But I say unto you, That every idle word that men shall speak, they shall give account thereof in the day of judgment. For by thy words thou shalt be justified, and by thy words thou shalt be condemned. Matt 12:36-37
ANSWER – Yes. We are ALL accountable to the God and His Holy Spirit. We ALL will be judged and must give account of our deeds. Those who reject the prompting of the Holy Spirit will not be forgiven and shall not have eternal life. We are all either WITH God on the narrow way OR against God following our own wisdom.
Or does nationality/race/ethnicity/culture take precedance?
Does the gospel have cultural bounds??
Then Peter opened his mouth, and said, Of a truth I perceive that God is no respecter of persons:
But in every nation he that feareth him, and worketh righteousness, is accepted with him. Acts 10:34-5
And I saw another angel fly in the midst of heaven, having the everlasting gospel to preach unto them that dwell on the earth, and to every nation, and kindred, and tongue, and people Rev 14:6
And this gospel of the kingdom shall be preached in all the world for a witness unto all nations; and then shall the end come. Matt 24:14
If ye continue in the faith grounded and settled, and be not moved away from the hope of the gospel, which ye have heard, and which was preached to every creature which is under heaven; Col 1:23
But the word of the Lord endureth for ever. And this is the word which by the gospel is preached unto you.
1 peter 1:25
ANSWER – The gospel/truth has NO cultural bounds. The SAME eternal enduring gospel if for ALL NATIONS, and ALL people. It is for EVERY creature. No matter whether they live in a grass hut in Africa or a mansion in Hollywood, ALL are accountable to that same gospel truth and are saved by that same Word which is Christ.
Your assertion that other religions contain an “undercurrent” of truth THEREFORE using logic prayer works for everyone is NOT Biblical. In fact it stands in direct contradiction to the Word of God. Worship, prayers to, serving, bowing down to ANY God other then the Creator is in VAIN! Even worshiping God with man made tradition RATHER then His simple truth is in vain. God asks that ALL simply follow His Word…..NO MORE, NO LESS.
The example of the human Christ was to pray ONLY to the Father. Any other prayer is in vain.
Elijah proved this at Mt Carmel. There is ONLY ONE God…our prayers are either to Him or not. If theyre not they are in vain and have no saving power.
Thou shalt have no other gods before me. Ex 20:3
And in all things that I have said unto you be circumspect: and make no mention of the name of other gods, neither let it be heard out of thy mouth. Ex 23:3
Ye shall not go after other gods, of the gods of the people which are round about you; Deut 6:14
Take heed to yourselves, that your heart be not deceived, and ye turn aside, and serve other gods, and worship them; Deut 11:6
If there be found among you, within any of thy gates which the LORD thy God giveth thee, man or woman, that hath wrought wickedness in the sight of the LORD thy God, in transgressing his covenant, And hath gone and served other gods, and worshipped them, either the sun, or moon, or any of the host of heaven, which I have not commanded;
And it be told thee, and thou hast heard of it, and enquired diligently, and, behold, it be true, and the thing certain, that such abomination is wrought in Israel: Deut 17:2-4
With whom the LORD had made a covenant, and charged them, saying, Ye shall not fear other gods, nor bow yourselves to them, nor serve them, nor sacrifice to them: 2 kings 17:35
And go not after other gods to serve them, and to worship them, and provoke me not to anger with the works of your hands; and I will do you no hurt. Jer 25:6
But in vain they do worship me, teaching for doctrines the commandments of men. Matt 15:9
Many will say to me in that day, Lord, Lord, have we not prophesied in thy name? and in thy name have cast out devils? and in thy name done many wonderful works?
And then will I profess unto them, I never knew you: depart from me, ye that work iniquity.
Therefore whosoever heareth these sayings of mine, and doeth them, I will liken him unto a wise man, which built his house upon a rock: Matt 7:22-24
And Elijah came unto all the people, and said, How long halt ye between two opinions? if the LORD be God, follow him: but if Baal, then follow him. And the people answered him not a word.
Then said Elijah unto the people, I, even I only, remain a prophet of the LORD; but Baal's prophets are four hundred and fifty men.
Let them therefore give us two bullocks; and let them choose one bullock for themselves, and cut it in pieces, and lay it on wood, and put no fire under: and I will dress the other bullock, and lay it on wood, and put no fire under:
And call ye on the name of your gods, and I will call on the name of the LORD: and the God that answereth by fire, let him be God. And all the people answered and said, It is well spoken.
And Elijah said unto the prophets of Baal, Choose you one bullock for yourselves, and dress it first; for ye are many; and call on the name of your gods, but put no fire under.
And they took the bullock which was given them, and they dressed it, and called on the name of Baal from morning even until noon, saying, O Baal, hear us. But there was no voice, nor any that answered. And they leaped upon the altar which was made.
And it came to pass at noon, that Elijah mocked them, and said, Cry aloud: for he is a god; either he is talking, or he is pursuing, or he is in a journey, or peradventure he sleepeth, and must be awaked.
And they cried aloud, and cut themselves after their manner with knives and lancets, till the blood gushed out upon them.
And it came to pass, when midday was past, and they prophesied until the time of the offering of the evening sacrifice, that there was neither voice, nor any to answer, nor any that regarded.
And Elijah said unto all the people, Come near unto me. And all the people came near unto him. And he repaired the altar of the LORD that was broken down.
And Elijah took twelve stones, according to the number of the tribes of the sons of Jacob, unto whom the word of the LORD came, saying, Israel shall be thy name:
And with the stones he built an altar in the name of the LORD: and he made a trench about the altar, as great as would contain two measures of seed.
And he put the wood in order, and cut the bullock in pieces, and laid him on the wood, and said, Fill four barrels with water, and pour it on the burnt sacrifice, and on the wood.
And he said, Do it the second time. And they did it the second time. And he said, Do it the third time. And they did it the third time.
And the water ran round about the altar; and he filled the trench also with water.
And it came to pass at the time of the offering of the evening sacrifice, that Elijah the prophet came near, and said, LORD God of Abraham, Isaac, and of Israel, let it be known this day that thou art God in Israel, and that I am thy servant, and that I have done all these things at thy word.
Hear me, O LORD, hear me, that this people may know that thou art the LORD God, and that thou hast turned their heart back again.
Then the fire of the LORD fell, and consumed the burnt sacrifice, and the wood, and the stones, and the dust, and licked up the water that was in the trench.
And when all the people saw it, they fell on their faces: and they said, The LORD, he is the God; the LORD, he is the God.
According to Scripture - Prayer to God the Creator has saving grace and power. Prayer to other gods are in vain and not acceptable to our Creator.
lol...i knew when you asked me those questions, this is how you were going to respond. and i am sorry that you are troubled by the fact that i think rationally about these subjects. but it goes back to what someone else said in this thread - you can't use the Bible as evidence for the validity of the Bible...
religion has been used to pull the wool over people's eyes throughout history, precisely because people are afraid to turn a critical eye to their beliefs. when i was a teenager and i came to find out how black people learned about christianity largely through the vehicle of slavery, i felt compelled to take a scrutinizing look at the religion that was used as one of the tools of enslaving my ancestors. what this meant was, i had to put aside all notions and biases that i picked up growing up, and critically look at christianity exactly as it stood...and it wasn't the easiest thing to do.
doing so put me on the road i am on now...and i have learned a great deal about the nature of spirituality and religion since then. probably the biggest lesson i've learned is that the "path to God" is a personal one, shaped by your experiences as you go through life. and it's not about the end result, nearly as much as it's about just trodding the path, because that's how you build that personal relationship with God, which is what's REALLY important.
the key thing we disagree on, i think, is that i no longer just accept the Bible as a 100% accurate document without question. when you study history and the evolution of the Bible, and see how man has had his hand in manipulating it, as well as the true origins for several of the ideas found there, i don't see how you can. you say we shouldn't rely on reason...but it's my opinion God gave us brains for a purpose.
it's cool that you look to the Bible for answers on all things spiritual, as that's your chosen guidebook. the Bible is excellent for that. what i am saying is that when a muslim does the same with the Koran, or a buddhist with his teachings from Buddha, or a witchdoctor with his oral traditions...really and truly...nobody has any real grounds to say one is right and the others are wrong. the only source of validation is experience - which is culturally shaped and totally subjective. all you can do is use what works best for you to build your relationship with God. that's all i'm saying...
Pretty hard to build much of a relationship with God our Creator if we ignore, trivialize, or do not believe His Word. The Bible and Christ are synonymous, to dismiss one even a small percentage as "not accurate" is to dismiss the other in the same sense.
Indeed...as I suspected when reading your paragraphs of human logic, we are miles apart then.
I am sorry you have lost faith in Gods Word...whatever the reason.
In the beginning was the Word, and the Word was with God, and the Word was God. John 1:1
He that is of God heareth God's words: ye therefore hear them not, because ye are not of God. John 8:47
And take the helmet of salvation, and the sword of the Spirit, which is the word of God: Eph 6:17
So then faith cometh by hearing, and hearing by the word of God. Rom 10:17
But he (Jesus)answered and said, It is written, Man shall not live by bread alone, but by every word that proceedeth out of the mouth of God. Matt 4:4
Every word of God is pure: he is a shield unto them that put their trust in him.
Add thou not unto his words, lest he reprove thee, and thou be found a liar.
Prov 30:5-6
The grass withereth, the flower fadeth: but the word of our God shall stand for ever. Is 40:8
For the word of God is quick, and powerful, and sharper than any twoedged sword, piercing even to the dividing asunder of soul and spirit, and of the joints and marrow, and is a discerner of the thoughts and intents of the heart. Heb 4:12
He that saith, I know him, and keepeth not his commandments, is a liar, and the truth is not in him.
But whoso keepeth his word, in him verily is the love of God perfected: hereby know we that we are in him 1 John 2:4,5
i guess i have lost faith that God's Word is only contained within the Bible. the experiences i have had just don't allow me to remain that naive or arrogant any longer. i have long passed that point of naivete on my journey. But I don't ignore or trivialise the Bible, nor do I ignore or trivialise anybody else's beliefs or relationship with the Creator, just because it doesn't align with my own.
Maybe it's just an ego problem we have in the west where we expect everyone to conform to our way of doing things...but the world is a really big place. Christians believe they can look to nature to find evidence of God's handiwork and design. Just like different cultures have developed different languages to communicate with each other and describe life as they experience it...what makes you think the same wouldn't go for religions. I will take it a step further and note that religions frequently borrow from one another, as many of the ideas in Christianity are not original.
It's like looking through one window on a wall in a house, and believing you can describe everything outside. You might see mountains, someone else looking through a different window might see trees...nobody's view is less valid than the next. But it's all a part of the totality of what exists outside the house - we can't see it because we are on the inside looking out. All religions to me fundamentally are different cultural views of our Creator.
This isn't a simple matter of 1+1=2. lol, even in that example, that assumes a base 10 number system - 1+1 = 10 in binary. But because you are unwilling to objectively examine christianity, and you scrutinize every other religion with a bias...we'll just have to agree to disagree.
It also seems you have a fundamental problem with human logic. Again, God gave us brains for a reason. Logic is not a sin. We are made in God's image and have the same abilities he does, just obviously not on as grand a scale. God gave us our cognition so we could USE it to ponder this universe that we live in, evolve (a dirty word apparently, lol) and grow. Not just believe blindly and remain stagnant.
I have no problem with logic or human reasoning as long as it falls within the boundaries of our Creators revealed will and truth. Your right, God created within us a brain so that we could CHOOSE to follow Him or not. He gave us intelligence and understanding so that we might appreciate Him and learn of Him in addition to enjoying what He created for us.
As His Word says, "Choose ye this day whom ye will serve...." God or self.
The "narrow way" is God's, Christ Jesus our Creators religion...its HIS Gospel truth, not mine. I didnt author it, I didnt design it, I didnt do a consultation on it, I get NO credit for any of it. Its NOT mine. Because there is but ONE Creator God there is but ONE truth. Conforming to our Creator's Gospel truth is NOT an invention of the west. Conforming to the principles of Christ is the religion HE authored. Its the whole reason Christ came here and died. It is in fact what is BEST for all mankind. Therin lies the problem for sinful man. Man thinks he knows best. If you or anyone has an issue with God's religion your issue is with the Author.
Mankind prefers his own reasoning, questioning the wisdom of Gods design, questioning Gods infinite plan, putting his own wisdom and logic above Gods revealed will, above His Word. "For thou hast said in thine heart, I will ascend into heaven, I will exalt my throne above the stars of God:..." and that is the seed of Lucifers rebellion and the source of all evil in this world.
Your right, the world is a big place, so is the universe, but God is the Creator and Lord of it ALL. There is none other. His Word & truth endures forever. His Word & His example show us clearly that all religions are NOT authored by Him. His Word and revealed will also show that all worship is NOT accepted by him. Even some that worship in His name will be told to "depart" and are "spewed out of His mouth.." in the day he returns.
Choosing to follow ones own will, or put ones own logic, reasoning, intellect etc ABOVE Gods "seemth right unto a man but the end thereof is destruction"
There are only two paths to follow for ALL humanity. Those who walk in 'perfection' with Christ follow all the 'light'/truth they know, if but a little.
His light and truth is being spread across the entire world....when that work is concluded He will return to "gather the faithful" that have kept His word. Those who havent will be judged accordingly.
Posting Permissions
Reply With Quote