read up on this...found it interesting. The main thing emphasised was that Judas claims Jesus asked him to turn him into the authorities. This, of course, sparks a million different tangents. Though it doesn't disprove anything in the current bible, it adds a twist to what Christians are taught.
yea i saw that and was like wowOriginally Posted by Romeyo07
but ya never know whats true
Val for President
I like the second links explaination of it and how it ties it to his death....make sense. Does it change anything, no. I'd like to catch what the national geographic channel had on this.
although this does bring up some interesting points and stories and what have you. keep in mind its clamed as a Gnostic gospel, meaning its not one of the gospels that the church associates with. the copy that was found apparently wasnt even the "orginial" doctorine that was written, apparently like most of the gospels, especially the gnostic ones, they were all written a good sum of years after the death of jesus. this gospel that was found is no differnet.
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so what your saying is that because the church doesnt associate with it, its wrong?
maybe the church doesnt associate with it because it doesnt fit this nice little story they preach? food for thought
Val for President
no, im not saying that it is wrong to belive that gospel, im just saying that, that at the time of the the disciples and the concils that made up the books of the new testament. these Gospels, the Gnostic gospels, because of the way that they were written at that time were considered heresy. they could be true, they could not be true. who know's toe be honest they could have just left out that gospel from the new testament beecause it being judas. who know's
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"Scholars say that they have long been on the lookout for the Gospel of Judas because of a reference to what was probably an early version of it in a text called Against Heresies, written by Irenaeus, the bishop of Lyons, about the year 180.
Irenaeus was a hunter of heretics, and no friend of the Gnostics. He wrote, "They produce a fictitious history of this kind, which they style the Gospel of Judas.""
Hulud - the story doesn't change. Jesus still dies on the Cross.
i know the story doesnt change, but it changes things in the story
Val for President
another thing i noticed from reading the 2nd link is, the gnostics are a sect of christians who believe the whole "secrets" thing right? and by having jesus confide in judas the "secret" of having him betray jesus, it kinda fits in with their (being the gnostics) belief?
the gnostics are an interesting bunch of people. they believe that although jesus was a person he actually was not, they believe that in order for jesus to be truely the son of god, or god him self. his actual human form is not realy, but soemthing that embodies the holy spirit.
i hope that made sense, im trying to remember all this off the top of my head cuz thats what were studying in my religion class at school
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The apostle John made reference to the spirit if antichrist which he said was ALREADY in the world at the time of his writing. That antichrist or false christ "in place of Christ" was at that time primarily Gnostics who made up their own version of Christ, one that suited them better the the REAL One. On a side note, this is much along the same line as what Mr Tabor is doing with his work, trying to make Jesus fit what is wanted rather then accepting what He is.
The "gospel" of Judas is part of this anti christ movement. The spirit of antichrist has continued throughout history to this very day. Along the same vein, Judas betrayed Jesus because of his desire to make Christ into something he wanted. Instead Christ delivered everyone that will accept His gift from sin and its consequenses.
the gnostic gospels were around BEFORE the gnostic people, and contain such gospels as the gospel of st. thomas, the supposed spoken words of jesus directly to doubting thomas. the gnostic people are no different than catholics etc who have taken ALL OF THE GOSPELS and chosen the select few that fit their beliefs. of course if u abide by the catholic or king james bibles then the gnostic gospels would seem heritic to you as is vise versa. however, when viewing them ALL the picture is much clearer. anyone interested in religion and such, i would truely reccommend studying both, and seeing how the picture doesnt neccesary contridict each other, but coinsides to the point that one believing one to be false doctrine seems unintellegent. while there are descrepenses gospel to gospel, one must remember that each gospel is one persons account of events told or viewed, and as many cases, no one person has the full view. the main reason the catholic church denies the gnostic gospels is found in the gospel of st. thomas, as it states " the kingdom of god is not held within buildings of wood and stone"" it is in side you and all around you... split a piece of wood, and i am there, lift up a stone and you will find me" . obviously, this paints quite a different picture than the catholic belief that the church is your one way to communicate with the Almighty. thus, their exclusion from the bible. i agian recommend any true christian, to read the gnostic gospels and make their own decision.
When I was a child, I used to talk as a child, think as a child, reason as a child; when I became a man, I put aside childish things.
you have to understand that at that time, there was no division in churches. the term catholic means "universal" it was only called the catholic church when the romans adopted it into their prime religion and the church split leaving the Roman catholic church and the Eastern Orthodox, which orthodox means "true teachings". the Gnostics believed that god was not able to be contained in material things that he was greater then that and that the human called jesus could not embody god because he was to great. they believe that if in fact the messiah, he was but an embodiment of the spirit of god and not a true human being. the Gnostic gospels have alwasy been around seeing as how "gospel" means good news. Many gospels existed. these gospels that the councils and compiled together were gospels of close people to jesus. these stories that the diciples spoke were their views on the teachings of god or jesus. the Gnostic gospels were in fact readings that the catholic church, not the one you think of today, thought didnt didnt agree with the "ideas" and or teachings that jesus had brought to the people
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A couple of Scriptures on the subjects that pertain to this debate....
Gal 1:6-9 I marvel that ye are so soon removed from him that called you into the grace of Christ unto another gospel: Which is not another; but there be some that trouble you, and would pervert the gospel of Christ.
But though we, or an angel from heaven, preach any other gospel unto you than that which we have preached unto you, let him be accursed.
As we said before, so say I now again, If any man preach any other gospel unto you than that ye have received, let him be accursed.
2 Cor 11:3,4 But I fear, lest by any means, as the serpent beguiled Eve through his subtlety, so your minds should be corrupted from the simplicity that is in Christ.
For if he that cometh preacheth another Jesus, whom we have not preached, or if ye receive another spirit, which ye have not received, or another gospel, which ye have not accepted, ye might well bear with him.
Acts 20:26-31 Wherefore I take you to record this day, that I am pure from the blood of all men. For I have not shunned to declare unto you all the counsel of God.
Take heed therefore unto yourselves, and to all the flock, over the which the Holy Ghost hath made you overseers, to feed the church of God, which he hath purchased with his own blood.
For I know this, that after my departing shall grievous wolves enter in among you, not sparing the flock.
Also of your own selves shall men arise, speaking perverse things, to draw away disciples after them.
Therefore watch, and remember, that by the space of three years I ceased not to warn every one night and day with tears.
Rev 22:7 Behold, I come quickly: blessed is he that keepeth the sayings of the prophecy of this book.
Rev 22:18-20 For I testify unto every man that heareth the words of the prophecy of this book, If any man shall add unto these things, God shall add unto him the plagues that are written in this book:
And if any man shall take away from the words of the book of this prophecy, God shall take away his part out of the book of life, and out of the holy city, and from the things which are written in this book.
He which testifieth these things saith, Surely I come quickly. Amen. Even so, come, Lord Jesus.
metalman, you seriously are the bomb when it comes to religious history and what not. +1 for you man. im in the process of learning and what have you. being in my religion class and all.
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just to continue an interesting discussion:
the bible did not arrive by fax from heaven, and Jesus' second coming not withstanding, there is no true way to know what gospels God wanted in the bible, as it was made and REVISED by man. so with that known, and proven throughout history, using the bible to validate itself is an effort of futility because the bible, in essence, is propaganda of the RCC. treating it as such, one cannot use the propaganda of a power to justify its cause. For example, andthis IS AN EXAMPLE AND NO WAY A RELATIVE COMPARISION, a nazi cannot use nazi party propaganda as justification of why jews would be deemed below them. a kkk member cannot use their propaganda as justificition as why the white race is superior, etc etc.
When I was a child, I used to talk as a child, think as a child, reason as a child; when I became a man, I put aside childish things.
On the contrary...ANY so called 'gospel' that changes, adds to, subtracts from, or in any way contradicts the entire sum of Scripture up to that point or contradicts the law of God IS NOT OF GOD. That Scriptural principle is quite clear throughout the entire Bible.
The Scriptures already existed at the time of Christ...in part. His words/teachings and even LIFE were in COMPLETE harmony with the Scriptures already written. His promise IS that His Word is eternal and sure. You/we either believe that or not. I do.
The Scripture from Gen to Rev give essentially the same 'test' to ANY book that comes along. Also, even logic would tell you that a God who can Create life can protect His own Word and see to it which is to be included. I know this, whenever I test any doctrine or teaching by the entire Bible and law of God it either floats or sinks...just like that Book teaches and says. The proof is in the pudding.
To the law and to the testimony: if they speak not according to this word, it is because there is no light in them. Is. 8:20
agian, man has compiled the bible so it could be argued that that principle is the set belief of the compilors
the gospel of st. thomas is to be believed by many scholors to be the closest written document to the spoken word of Jesus Christ. but how are we to decide what speaks agians that word, should one verse that provides a different approach deem an entire gospel herecy, regardless of if the message of that gospel coinsides with the bible?
on another note, +1 for you sir for knowing your religion, being educated, and providing me with an enthralling debate!
When I was a child, I used to talk as a child, think as a child, reason as a child; when I became a man, I put aside childish things.
this is a very good point. validation has to come from an EXTERNAL source. this is one of the reasons why, although i think the Bible is a great book and spiritual guide, it can't be objectively accepted at face value as a 100% factual document. WAAAAAYYY too many hands have been in that pot.
There's a book out there called the Lost Books of the Bible that compiles a lot of the gospels and other books that were left out of the Bible by the various RCC councils (for numerous reasons, most of them not with the noblest intentions and self-serving). I'm pretty sure the Gospel of Judas and Thomas, as well as the Book of Adam and Eve and Enoch, are included. Any serious student of Christianity should try to get their hands on it...
that book, along with others, available at many book stores, is usually named the gnostic gospels or the Coptic Scrolls, i believe, which is the name given because of the location found? i might possibly be wrong on that.lo. however, i did see one book that contained every gospel released and had them placed in chronological order and provided an amazing read and surprisingly did not contain too many contriditions. if i see it agian, i will post a thread of the title and location it can be purchased so all might share it. +1 for the back up.
When I was a child, I used to talk as a child, think as a child, reason as a child; when I became a man, I put aside childish things.
This is where personal experience and 'testing' of THAT Book come in....which is what that Book teaches to begin with.
Only those that have LIVED and EXPERIENCED the truths and promises of the Bible can really fully accept it. Thats why Jesus made the, "unless you eat my body...." statement. You must partake to have understanding.
and what of those people, who feel that they have tested the book agian and agian and have not seen the truths and had those promises broken?
agian, just having a civilized convo, dont want any crazy christians killin me
When I was a child, I used to talk as a child, think as a child, reason as a child; when I became a man, I put aside childish things.
I would say those people haven't truly tested the Word, theyre making excuses. Too many want to go with their 'feelings' rather then a plain thus sayeth the Lord. Also many people want their OWN will and not the will of the Father.and what of those people, who feel that they have tested the book agian and agian and have not seen the truths and had those promises broken?
agian, just having a civilized convo, dont want any crazy christians killin me
To claim a Biblical promise one must meet the criteria for that promise.
Its either true or its all a lie. I can tell you from personal experience its NOT a lie.
I have also seen IT to be true firsthand in the lives of others.
But as the Bible says, let each be convinced in their own mind, by their own TRUTHFUL, HONEST experience.
when i speak of the catholic church, i am referring to the entity that formed and founded modern day christianity. the same church that pick and chose through all the different accounts, or gospels, refering to jesus and the following events, and compiled them into the book we know as the bible.
When I was a child, I used to talk as a child, think as a child, reason as a child; when I became a man, I put aside childish things.
and i could argue that those who could testify on the validity of the word and seen it firsthand are simply choosing to see it, selectively viewing the world as it were, and using their filtered reality to justify the words the want to be true, and denying that which contridicts the very core of their beliefs.
When I was a child, I used to talk as a child, think as a child, reason as a child; when I became a man, I put aside childish things.
First, you can argue whatever you wish. So can I. So can someone else.
All those arguments combined do NOT change the truth from being exactly what it is. It stands without our help or arguments.
Second, your arguments up to this point were more convincing...this one is kinda weak.Anyone can excuse anything someone else has ACTUALY experienced as a figment of their imagination or chalk it up to the person choosing to see it. Nonetheless, you still have the TESTIMONY of the person who ACTUALY experienced it. Also, in the case of Chrsitianity and Biblical principles there are MANY changed lives with witness's of that change.
haha yea i know that one was weak. i believe we are at a stalemate so i through that out there LOL
When I was a child, I used to talk as a child, think as a child, reason as a child; when I became a man, I put aside childish things.
+1 as soon as i can.
When I was a child, I used to talk as a child, think as a child, reason as a child; when I became a man, I put aside childish things.
totally off topic, but trini_gsr I saw your name and I'm wanting some roti and doubles now...
back on topic, I do know there's but one God, but I'm a little lost on your answer as to if there are multiple "view" of God (i.e. God, Allah, etc.) Are you saying that (my) God has placed different "views" of himself in different cultures, where in the end it all leads back to him?
If so, I don't agree. To purposely have multiple views of God is not in His nature. I wont go on since I don't know your answer.
lol...been a minute since i had doubles. never had them in atl...personally i find the roti shops here in atlanta are decent at best. i just get my fix when i visit the fam back in south FL...
but anyways...to answer your question, I'd say that the "end of the road" is going to mean different things to different people, depending on their spirituality. But I don't think it's something God does on purpose. I just think it's a little arrogant to expect every single culture in the entire world, with all their myriad differences, to have the exact same concepts about something as complex as God and spirituality.
but let me ask you this question - how do you know what God's nature is? and what makes your source of information superior to anyone else's, objectively speaking?
Exactly! One God, one Creator, one Saviour, one truth for ALL.
People want to think in that as long as they serve 'a god' that is sufficient.
Frankly, the idea of questioning God's sovereignty is the heart of Lucifer's rebellion.
How art thou fallen from heaven, O Lucifer, son of the morning! how art thou cut down to the ground, which didst weaken the nations!
For thou hast said in thine heart, I will ascend into heaven, I will exalt my throne above the stars of God: I will sit also upon the mount of the congregation, in the sides of the north:
I will ascend above the heights of the clouds; I will be like the most High.
Is 14:12-14
lol. are you serious? nobody's questioning God's sovereignty here. It's the very idea of what God means to different ppl that we're discussing. Again, you feel it's reasonable to limit God and put him in a nice neat little christian box. And to tell everyone if they don't see it your way...then they have to be wrong.
again I ask you...what gives you the authority to make a claim like that? Why is your holy book better than theirs? either side can say "oh it's because my God told me so." doesn't this seem just a TAD elitist? This is the same mentality that promotes intolerance between cultures, and allowed for the Crusades, the Inquisitions, and even slavery to last for as long as it did.
You guys need to really broaden your horizons...and try thinking outside of the box. I suggest you sit down and speak with some devout ppl with different cultures and religious backgrounds about their experiences...then maybe you won't be able to so easily dismiss them...
trini...you've gotta tell me where I can find a place that makes roti here in North Atlanta.
check your PM
I don't think as humans we've ever been stagnant. Using our logic helps us to keep from being stagnant. However, there will always be a difference between my logic and yours (not you directly).
My logic tells me that this world is too complex, too right for us to live in, etc. that it's almost impossible for this all to come together by CHANCE. This gives my life no meaning, no purpose. I just so happen to come about and be alive. I can try to fill my life with meaning (work, family, friends, etc.), but would still feel empty because I just got lucky. There's nothing special about me cause I could have been skipped in this evolution game.
With God, I have a purpose, I have value, I have meaning, etc. He fills that void that can't be filled by friends and family, big houses, fast cars, women, etc. Instead of accidentally being here, I'm here because he wants me here.
I can go on but I've gotta start working.
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