Here is some good reading...
http://www.seesharppress.com/20reaso...#numberfifteen
20 Reasons to Abandon Christianity
Here is some good reading...
http://www.seesharppress.com/20reaso...#numberfifteen
its all good and well, but if those 20 reasons really makes someone not believe than that person is not believing for wrong reasonsOriginally Posted by admin
but i do agree with most of it
Val for President
That's dumb. Any completely one sided argument is dumb. I can see being the devil's advocate but...Christians are evil, Jews are wicked, Blacks this, Hispanics that, Muslims are this because of this. It just doesnt add up to anything in my book.
On a couple points...
Generally, I have found from careful study of the original languages and meanings that the so called "contradictions" in the Bible are in the minds of the uneducated reader only. Also the idea that Christ/God etc are real yet the Bible is inaccurate is to accept the notion that an all powerful God who can create the world is somehow unable to preserve the integrity of his only Book or truly inspire and direct it's authors. This isnt even logical.
As for slavery...it is true that Columbus, a devout Catholic, introduced slavery to this hemisphere with the blessing of the church which regard heathen as heritics deserving of death anyway. It is also true that southern protestants were steeped in the tradition/greed of slavery. In truth our whole country has suffered because of it and it continues to effect us to this day....which stands to reason...."...visiting the iniquity of the fathers upon the children unto the third and fourth generation..."...the effects of sins are passed down.
I hate that picture. I would probably beat the shit out of that guy if I saw him, but yes I know everyone had their own opinions. I knw I know.
Well, first of all, it's easy to present a case strictly on pulling out PORTIONS of any text and twisting it to fit your needs. Notice how none of the quoted text the author uses to prove a point ever has any notations to previous context that either preceeded it or followed it. In other words, it's convinient to take things out of context and make it seem like what you wanted it to say. We all could do that. I'm sure we could do the same treatment to his work if we wanted.
Second, just about every point he brings up can actually be agreed with even by the Christian side. Why deny there is a Heaven and a Hell? IF you're scared of one or the the other, what's wrong with that? Now, I agree with him that a preacher shouldn't get up on a pulpit and fire down at parishoners with "scare tactics", ie. fire and brimstone sermons. But truth is an absolute defense IMO. If someone were to ask me if there is a "hell", I'd answer yes. If they inquired more as to what I believed it was like, I'd tell them. If after all that THEY were scared, that's like shooting the messanger. Some things are scary. Death is scary to most, yet it doesn't change the FACT that it happens, right? So, why would telling someone about it make it any worse? It just IS.
Finally, and more importantly, people will believe what they want to believe the majority of the time. If they have ingrained in their psychy that God doesn't exist, they will find supporters of their beliefs to agree with them. It's only natural. So, for him to generalize certain things as : Christopher Columbus= Catholic; Christopher Columbus used slaves= Christianity abdocates slavery and therefore Christianity is bad.....is ridiculous. Where is this guy from? I'm willing to bet just about anything that somewhere in HIS background generations ago HIS ancestors probably had an example of either having or using slaves. What's that got to do with him today? Does that put in question the validity of HIS work because of that mere fact?
This author merely showed a very 1 sided view and gave absolutely no credence to the other side. Ironically enough, that's exactly what fire and brimstone preachers and followers do for the most part....How can one be right and not the other?
i'm just wondering here are you disputing the fact that christians supported slavery for centurys? that would be like stating that you don't believe molestation ever happened in the catholic churches... religion is slavery to begin with
You didn't answer my question, so I guess you misunderstood.
I'm not arguing one way or another if something happened centuries ago. I'm merely saying that to make the leap forward of tying that to religion today is ludicrous. In other words, just because an ancestor of yours did something how does that relate to YOU today? Isn't a far leap to assume it makes you and your ancestor one in the same? Therefore, how can you glob religion the same way? Every single religion in the entire face of the earth has had someone commit something irrevocably wrong while shouting out their name.
Look at the case of Islam right now. Islam is said to be a peaceful religion. I've seen and agreed with many people that defend that viewpoint. What does mainstream think though? That ALL Islam advocates is violence for anyone that doesn't follow it's beliefs. How right is that? It's actually LESS of a leap to tie since there have been beheadings and suicide bombers who clearly by their own admissions did their deeds in the name of "Islam".
So for the author of that to loosely tie that Christianity as a whole condones slavery because Christopher Columbus had slaves on his ships (as EVERY ship routinely did) and since he was a Catholic that means Christianity CONDONED it is far fetched at best. Does that mean that if you buy something made in China, you are FOR child labor violations? See what I mean?
that dude with the sign is my hero!
GeckoSquad / Skull Platoon
leap forward... hmmm there is still slavery, racisim, seperatism, today... what leap are you refering to... that black people can vote, own land, etc... what are we talking about 50 years?
also you are christian, you already have sin in you from the original... so if you have to carry such a burden why wouldn't you carry the burden of all mankind or christians who came before you? you live with what they haev done everyday, why would this be different?
yes i buy things from china and if they come from labor camps, guess what... one i wouldnt' know b/c i'm not from china, two nothing i can do will change the fact i'm going to buy products from there regardless.
They are just there to take your money no joke.
"A single death is a tragedy;A million deaths is a statistic."
-Joseph Stalin 1945
i'm not even gonna bother reading the 20 reasons...
but one reason to LIVE FOR JESUS is because HE DIED FOR YOU!
Plain and simple - Those 20 "reasons" are nothing are nothing more than that one person's opinion. He is entitled to his opinion, but those opinions are nothing more than hate propoganda - equilant to the teachings of the Third Reich. If you choose to listen to it and repeat his opinions as your own, that is your perogrative. But that does not mean that it is not preaching hatred (of Christianity).
wtf?! what a Hater! why would you post something like that?
ya know Christians started out as slaves. Just because man does something and is a Christian doesn't make it the "policy" of God.
what happened to you to be such an asshole? attacking christians for no reason. come on what happened? did your kitten get ran over by a car when you were a kid? after all if God is good and loving why would he let your kitty get ran over?
ever heard the saying, "There's no such thing as an atheist in a fox hole."? I guarntee if you find yourself in that situation you'll only have 1 reason to change your mind.
where the hell is admin attacking christianity?
and this argument is classic"why are you not christian, you must think why would god do this" damn that is the most ignorant comment you can make about an atheist. yea man the reason i dont believe in a god is because i can't believe my kitty died
thank you, i guess because if you are in a war you automatically become religiousever heard the saying, "There's no such thing as an atheist in a fox hole."? I guarntee if you find yourself in that situation you'll only have 1 reason to change your mind.
Last edited by Hulud; 03-14-2006 at 07:32 AM.
Val for President
did you read the 1st post in this thread? what are you dense? maybe I'm wrong and he's not lmk I'll apologize.where the hell is admin attacking christianity?
and this argument is classic
you said it
no but if you're about die in a guresome way I bet you will.thank you, i guess because if you are in a war you automatically become religious
said it
he's right... think about it... when somethin bad happens to you... what do u say... (wether it's in vain for not) 9 out of ten people will say the name JESUS! or GOD! or OH MY GOD! now where most people say it for the wrong reason, your still calling out to the one person who will always hear you, and the only one who can always help! or solve ANY problem!
it's human nature to call out to your maker.... like when ur a little kid and u call for ur mommy or daddy... same concept..
so i was created by "french fries".. also if you think about it. as children you have an open mind. you pick up words from what is constantly said to you. most parents say mommy, mom, dad, daddy and so forth more than any other word. it's the stereotypical "first word" because parents want to feel special if their child says their "name" first... if i were to say penis allthe time the child will probably say penis as their first words... it's all what you push on the child.. your thesis = bust
No siggy as of right now
no its not, its learned
Val for President
i think you're the one jmping to conclusionsdid you read the 1st post in this thread? what are you dense? maybe I'm wrong and he's not lmk I'll apologize.
you said it
he never said anything other than hers some good reading
since you know me and allno but if you're about die in a guresome way I bet you will.
Val for President
Topic Title, the pic, and the link to the website. what was I thinking?i think you're the one jmping to conclusions
he never said anything other than hers some good reading
since you know me and all
it'd be like if I started a thread titled, "20 reasons to shoot a kitten" then had a pic of a guy w/a gun pointed at a kitten and then gave a link to a website with 20 Reasons to shoot a kitten you wouldn't think I liked/wanted to shoot a kitten?
maybe it's just me
Look, if our Christianity bothers you so much... Quit talking about it. We're not trying to offend or preach to you guys until YA'LL bring it up. But when I see you guys post stuff like whoever it was that posted that pic saying "If Jesus comes back, kill him again"... That really offends me. If you guys think we're so immature and simpleminded for believing this stuff, keep it to yourselves- that would be the mature thing to do. Why flip out and try to start arguments? It's so pointless! We all believe how we want to believe and we're not gonna change until WE want to... Geezzz....
Christians made themselves slaves by rebelling against the empire.
How am i an asshole, b/c i don't believe in Santa Claus, The Easter Bunny, or that guy you like to glorify hanging on a cross?
and you statement about how god is "good and loving" has to be the dumbest statement ever... read your bible god has allowed evil to take over earth and he is more than capable of doing such.
no i've never heard that and i hope your at my death bed so you can see me curse the name of your god once again
EAD h8ter.
Alot of people have trouble with what God "allows". I sympathize with that sentiment.
However, to me it isnt that confusing...God created mankind but allowed mankind to choose. He could have created robots who served him without any means to do otherwsie but He didnt. Man had the choice to obey God, respect Him or not. Man choose to disobey in spite of being warned and told of the results. The results are exactly what God said they would be...the evil that has taken over the earth as you have described.
God has allowed all of the universe to see by virtue of allowing mans choice that His way is in fact the right way and choosing other ways only lead to misery, destruction & death. He has also allowed the whole universe to see that he in indeed a God of mercy in that he has provided a way out to ANYONE that accepts it.
We all have that choice available to us...we can accept it or not. This is why I hate these religions that try to force "morality" through the government. Choice is a God given right, even up to and including cursing Him.
^dumbest statment ever^Christians made themselves slaves by rebelling against the empire.
How am i an asshole, b/c i don't believe in Santa Claus, The Easter Bunny, or that guy you like to glorify hanging on a cross?
and you statement about how god is "good and loving" has to be the dumbest statement ever... read your bible god has allowed evil to take over earth and he is more than capable of doing such.
no i've never heard that and i hope your at my death bed so you can see me curse the name of your god once again
EAD h8ter.
[/PUSSY] get some
I hope there's a christian at your death bed too man!
but not one that's there to watch u die,... but to help u live.
i don't know you at all, and u don't know me... but it only takes one small act of God to change your mind completely.... And i know HE can change yours... i watched over 10,000 non believers get saved this weekend... one person won't be too hard for HIM!
i personally don't have any problem w/ christians, just their religion. there isn't anything for me to want to worship. i do not believe in your heaven/hell/god so it doesn't phase me the outcome some my think i will have.
if i'm wrong then i will be getting a nice sun tan for eternity, but if i'm right lol... you better hope there is room in my heaven for ya
hmm quite interesting, i'd jump into this great discussion but i have class soonishso i won't have time to defend my self lol
No siggy as of right now
No, that's just it. Hell is worse than anything imaginable. Total darkness,screaming,falling,burning,burning,burning ... FOREVER! Our "fleshly" minds can't comprehind eternity. What if you are, in fact, wrong? Ever though about that? There's is nothing you can do... And it's forever.
If I'm wrong (which I have experienced God's power and know it's real), what have I got to lose? I'll die, rot, and become part of this earth... Oh well, it's not demonic torture for eternity.
Sorry thanx for playing... your view on things is quite 1 sided... you think just b/c your believe in GOD 1) your going to heaven 2) if your wrong then you'll just rot... what if your wrong you can still meet a hell in your afterlife which may be far worse than what your christian books tell you.
so make sure you choose your heaven wisely... i have made peace with my self if i am wrong; you should do the same for it might not be as easy as rotting and becoming earth
I do understand what you are saying. I didn't mean to sound so "one-sided". But because I have truely experienced God in my life, I know He is real. However because you haven't, you don't. I don't think I'm going to heaven just because i "believe in God", I think I am because I live my life for Him.Sorry thanx for playing... your view on things is quite 1 sided... you think just b/c your believe in GOD 1) your going to heaven 2) if your wrong then you'll just rot... what if your wrong you can still meet a hell in your afterlife which may be far worse than what your christian books tell you.
so make sure you choose your heaven wisely... i have made peace with my self if i am wrong; you should do the same for it might not be as easy as rotting and becoming earth
Not to pick on you, I agree with some of the sentimate expressed, BUT I am troubled by one thing. I understand I am going against common church teachings but when I study the Bible carefully I find no such eternal burning hell.
Make no mistake, hell IS eternal, but just the effects/results.
Sodom and Gomorrah "suffered the vengance of eternal fire" according to Scripture yet there is no burning there this day, only utter desolation.
It is highly troubling to critics of Christianity that while God is supposed to be merciful and loving he is willing to torture people for eternity. I don't blame them for questioning this. That is why I bring this up.
A couple Bible verses on the subject...
Mal 4:1 For, behold, the day cometh, that shall burn as an oven; and all the proud, yea, and all that do wickedly, shall be stubble: and the day that cometh shall burn them up, saith the LORD of hosts, that it shall leave them neither root nor branch.
Rom 6:23 For the wages of sin is death; (NOT eternal life in torment)but the gift of God is eternal life through Jesus Christ our Lord.
Rev 21:4 And God shall wipe away all tears from their eyes; and there shall be no more death, neither sorrow, nor crying, neither shall there be any more pain: for the former things are passed away.
**this would be a lie if people were burning forever**
There are many more verses...I won't list them all.
Think about it, use logic even, does anyone in this popular church taught eternal hell die of cancer? Heart disease? Does anyone go blind? Does anyone die accidently? If not it must be safer then the good old USA because people die here by the tens of thousands. Eternal hell must not be such a bad place afterall, at least its safer then the United States, its just warmer.
The teaching of eternal life in hell is a continuation of the first lie recorded in Scripture, "ye shall not surely die"
Fact is the Bible says the wicked are "destroyed", "burned up", "consumed" etc etc....there is an utter end, utter destruction, just like Sodom and Gomorrah. Even in the destruction of evil there is mercy.
Again, I don't question your intent or sincerity.
Last edited by metalman; 03-14-2006 at 06:59 PM.
Ok. First of all I wanna say thank you for not coming across in a judging way.
When you mentioned that "God is supposed to be merciful and loving he is willing to torture people for eternity"- as a Christian, I don't view it that way. He gives us our own free will. We have our entire lives, however long that may be, to choose His path. I also believe that if for some reason in you life span you never hear the teachings of Christ, God won't allow you to go to hell. You have to have heard about it, be at the age of understanding and deny or decide not to accept Him into your heart to go to hell in my opinion.
But here are a few verses to back up the hell that I believe in.
Mark 9:43 If your hand causes you to sin, cut it off. It is better for you to enter life maimed than with two hands to go into hell, where the fire never goes out.
Luke 16-22"The time came when the beggar died and the angels carried him to Abraham's side. The rich man also died and was buried. 23In hell,[c] where he was in torment, he looked up and saw Abraham far away, with Lazarus by his side. 24So he called to him, 'Father Abraham, have pity on me and send Lazarus to dip the tip of his finger in water and cool my tongue, because I am in agony in this fire.'
25"But Abraham replied, 'Son, remember that in your lifetime you received your good things, while Lazarus received bad things, but now he is comforted here and you are in agony. 26And besides all this, between us and you a great chasm has been fixed, so that those who want to go from here to you cannot, nor can anyone cross over from there to us.'
27"He answered, 'Then I beg you, father, send Lazarus to my father's house, 28for I have five brothers. Let him warn them, so that they will not also come to this place of torment.'
Rev. 14-10 he, too, will drink of the wine of God's fury, which has been poured full strength into the cup of his wrath. He will be tormented with burning sulfur in the presence of the holy angels and of the Lamb.
11And the smoke of their torment rises for ever and ever. There is no rest day or night for those who worship the beast and his image, or for anyone who receives the mark of his name."
Rev. 21-8But the cowardly, the unbelieving, the vile, the murderers, the sexually immoral, those who practice magic arts, the idolaters and all liars—their place will be in the fiery lake of burning sulfur. This is the second death."
Here's the main kicker...
Rev. 20- 7When the thousand years are over, Satan will be released from his prison 8and will go out to deceive the nations in the four corners of the earth—Gog and Magog—to gather them for battle. In number they are like the sand on the seashore. 9They marched across the breadth of the earth and surrounded the camp of God's people, the city he loves. But fire came down from heaven and devoured them. 10And the devil, who deceived them, was thrown into the lake of burning sulfur, where the beast and the false prophet had been thrown. They will be tormented day and night for ever and ever.
Just showing you "our" facts. And I see what you're saying about it being a "safer" (which is not the best word in my book) place then the U.S. because you never die. But it's a place that you'd rather die then live in that kind of torture/pain. It's not like everyday walking around chatting with people, or people developing cancer...
Once again, just my views as a christian.
And this verse is referring to those who chose to follow Christ.
A reference to heaven I believe.
that's one thing i don't agree with.... the age of understanding/ or accountaibility is no where in the Bible.... and i don't believe it says anything about.. "if you've never heard of christ your not going to hell"
that's my opinion though...
kelly where do u live... we should get together sometime and do some bible study or somethin!
Last edited by Killer; 03-15-2006 at 09:33 AM.
That'd be fun.
I live in North Ga.
i wouldn't think that. i'd think it was just some interesting reading. if i found something interesting i'd post it(unless someone else already did)
No siggy as of right now
amen.... amen!
To properly understand the Bible teaching on any doctrine one must accept the "sum total" of the entire Book on that particular subject.
Jude 1:7 Even as Sodom and Gomorrha, and the cities about them in like manner, giving themselves over to fornication, and going after strange flesh, are set forth for an example, suffering the vengeance of eternal fire.
2 Pet 2:6 And turning the cities of Sodom and Gomorrha into ashes condemned them with an overthrow, making them an ensample unto those that after should live ungodly;
2 Pet 3:10 But the day of the Lord will come as a thief in the night; in the which the heavens shall pass away with a great noise, and the elements shall melt with fervent heat, the earth also and the works that are therein shall be burned up.
Rev 21:4 And God shall wipe away all tears from their eyes; and there shall be no more death, neither sorrow, nor crying, neither shall there be any more pain: for the former things are passed away.
The key to undertanding Mark 9:43-8 is also found in Jer. 17....
Jer 17:27 But if ye will not hearken unto me to hallow the sabbath day, and not to bear a burden, even entering in at the gates of Jerusalem on the sabbath day; then will I kindle a fire in the gates thereof, and it shall devour the palaces of Jerusalem, and it shall not be quenched.
Careful study will indicate that in both in the case of Sodom and Jersalem the fire that cannot be quenched simply burns until its divine purpose has been accomplished and then it goes out. Man cannot extinguish or quench the fire of hell, but it does indeed go out when there is nothing left to burn.
As for the rich man and Lazarus, a careful study will show that is is contrary to this verse...Rev 21:4 And God shall wipe away all tears from their eyes; and there shall be no more death, neither sorrow, nor crying, neither shall there be any more pain: for the former things are passed away.
If the people in heaven can hear and speak to the people in hell there would most certainly be sorrow and pain, and the former things would not be passed away yet still remain.
So, what is this story about? Where did it come from? Turns out it was a common story of that era, a parable, not a literal story, which makes perfect sense in light of the rest of the Bible.
The Jews had a common story describing death as passing through a valley of darkness and they pictured salvation as fleeing to the security of Abraham's bosom. The Jews also believed that riches were a sign of God's favor and poverty a sign of His displeasure. Surely the poverty of Lazarus was an indication he had committed some grave sin, the Jews thought. But, the rich man in the story, whom the Jews thought blessed of God, ends up in Hell, while the poor man is in heaven. Jesus had reversed the outcome from what the Jews expected. This is why Jesus used the parable of the rich man and Lazarus in the way he did. It was not intended to convey the exact circumstances of Heaven or Hell, but rather to show to the Jews that they had grave misconceptions about who was saved and who was lost.
These are the main points the parable teaches:
1. Riches gained by greed, dishonesty or oppressing the poor are not a sign of God's favor. Wealth is simply not an indicator of one's salvation.
2. The parable describes a great fixed gulf between the saved and the lost. Jesus clearly communicated that there is no second chance after death. The decision made in life determines our eternal destiny, and it simply cannot be changed after death.
3. Jesus points out that if the Pharisees rejected the clear teachings of God's word regarding salvation, they would also reject such a mighty, supernatural spectacular miracle as one being raised from the dead.
Note that a short while later in John 11:11-14,43,44 Jesus raised Lazarus from the dead. As a result the Jews were threatened and attempted to kill Lazarus (John 12:10). They also became so angry with Jesus that they plotted to destroy Him as well. So the words of Jesus in Luke 16:31 were indeed prophetic and fulfilled.
It is indeed interesting to me that you bring up Rev. 20
That Scripture tells WHERE and WHEN & HOW hell takes place.
They marched across the breadth of the earth and surrounded the camp of God's people, the city he loves. But fire came down from heaven and devoured them
Where? The breadth of the earth, not some mysterious place
When? After the 1000 years, not now, not immediately at death
How? It devours the wicked just like the fires of Sodom and Jerusalem.
The Bible is clear throughout the entire Book, when God reveals himself to sinful unrepentant humans theyre consumed....
Exo 33:20 And he said, Thou canst not see my face: for there shall no man see me, and live.
Exo 24:17 And the sight of the glory of the LORD was like devouring fire on the top of the mount in the eyes of the children of Israel.
Isa 30:27 Behold, the name of the LORD cometh from far, burning with his anger, and the burden thereof is heavy: his lips are full of indignation, and his tongue as a devouring fire:
Deu 4:24 For the LORD thy God is a consuming fire, even a jealous God.
Heb 12:29 For our God is a consuming fire.
John 3:16 For God so loved the world, that he gave his only begotten Son, that whosoever believeth in him should not perish, but have everlasting life.
In order to have eternal life you must be saved. There is NO eternal life for the lost. Read Genisis...
Gen 3:22 And the LORD God said, Behold, the man is become as one of us, to know good and evil: and now, lest he put forth his hand, and take also of the tree of life, and eat, and live for ever:
Gen 3:23 Therefore the LORD God sent him forth from the garden of Eden, to till the ground from whence he was taken.
Gen 3:24 So he drove out the man; and he placed at the east of the garden of Eden Cherubims, and a flaming sword which turned every way, to keep the way of the tree of life.
The Immortality taken from mankind is restored to the righteous in the end, but NOT to the wicked. They are "consumed", "destroyed", "burned up", they "melt", they die the second death which is FINAL.
Rev 2:11 He that hath an ear, let him hear what the Spirit saith unto the churches; He that overcometh shall not be hurt of the second death.
Rev 20:6 Blessed and holy is he that hath part in the first resurrection: on such the second death hath no power, but they shall be priests of God and of Christ, and shall reign with him a thousand years.
Rev 20:14 And death and hell were cast into the lake of fire. This is the second death.
Rev 20:15 And whosoever was not found written in the book of life was cast into the lake of fire.
Keep studying...it took me while to learn these things, you will see the character of God in a new way.
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