What do you think?

[BABY J]

Humans are physical, mental, and spiritual. We possess something that cannot be measured through hard science and numbers because these things transcend the physical. To understand their existence and to define them scientifically are two different things. I am suggesting that there is life...I am not suggesting that we have been able to scientifically pen the specifics of the transition into that life after life.

Where is your proof that all humans are spiritual???

[bu villain]

Gary Schwartz's study demonstrated that something is left of the consciousness of people who are deceased. He of course gets flaked for it because it is not mainstream, but none-the-less he provided hard data that when looked at objectively makes a good case for something going on that is legitimate.

Link to said study? I would be interested in reading it.

[02SloWrx]

What happens? Are you a muslim? If so, read the "Qur'an" and you will find out. Are you christian? Read the bible "You will find out". And if you read both Bible or Qur'an, you will find that they talk about the same thing. Beleive it or not.

I'm a muslim, and I beleive in god. I've read and i've been told by people who read Qur'an what happens when you die. So I don't need to answer or question what happens when I die, cus I know what will happen, I follow Qur'an and beleive in Allah. I don't need other people opinions, and I dont see why you should need any either.

Each to his own tho, because NONE of us went and came back and told the story of how it is when you die.

I may not make any sense, but this is my comment. tybye.

[sport_122]

Where is your proof that all humans are spiritual???

as always, nobody can prove anything to anyone. The evidence is listed numerous times in these threads. Our greater connection to one another, research demonstrating a spiritual existence of people long deceased...if you want to look for evidence and you are serious there are TON of resources at your local bookstore, google, etc etc...but the evidence of a great human character that is not physical is plentiful to say the least.

[sport_122]

Link to said study? I would be interested in reading it.

this is a synopsis. You can get the finer details of the study. Of course there are still the skeptics, but read his research for yourself to determine whether or not you think his team covered the bases.

The studies are continuing under a new name.

also Victor Zammit. check him out. he offered a challenge to skeptics to join him is study. A challenge of which nobody stepped up to.

but anyway.

http://www.thepsychictimes.com/artic...fter_death.htm

[DustnU]

It's really simple!! The BIBLE says there is a Heaven and Hell. What more do you need? If you are saved and accept the Lord JESUS CHRIST as your savior your IN, if you DON'T your Not. Those who know him and have a relationship with him will enter the gates of Heaven, those who deny him and choose another path go to HELL! John 3:16 says it all, For god so loved the world he gave his only begotten son so whoever believes in me shall not perish but have everlasting life!! Either you believe or you don't theres no ridding the Fence when it comes to Eternity!!!!

[Camrazy2102]

What happens? Are you a muslim? If so, read the "Qur'an" and you will find out. Are you christian? Read the bible "You will find out". And if you read both Bible or Qur'an, you will find that they talk about the same thing. Beleive it or not.

I'm a muslim, and I beleive in god. I've read and i've been told by people who read Qur'an what happens when you die. So I don't need to answer or question what happens when I die, cus I know what will happen, I follow Qur'an and beleive in Allah. I don't need other people opinions, and I dont see why you should need any either.

Each to his own tho, because NONE of us went and came back and told the story of how it is when you die.

I may not make any sense, but this is my comment. tybye.

i am with you on this

[The Ren]

It's so interesting to me to get the take on other religons on this subject..

[DustnU]

I know everyone has their own opinion or beliefs but the FACT of the matter is..... You only get to HEAVEN one way and thats through JESUS CHRIST!! All other religions are FALSE. There is only ONE GOD and he is in HEAVEN and has an EMPTY tomb. Allah,Buddah, Muhammad and whoever else, they are all Burried in the ground!!!!!!!!!!! Believe whats in your heart, and when the day comes and your at the gates of HEAVEN they will look in the BOOK OF LIFE and see if your name is in it, and if you NEVER knew JESUS it won't be!!!!!!!!!!! SATAN and HELL are REAL and wait for all who don't BELIEVE!!!!!

[bu villain]

this is a synopsis. You can get the finer details of the study. Of course there are still the skeptics, but read his research for yourself to determine whether or not you think his team covered the bases.

The studies are continuing under a new name.

also Victor Zammit. check him out. he offered a challenge to skeptics to join him is study. A challenge of which nobody stepped up to.

but anyway.

http://www.thepsychictimes.com/artic...fter_death.htm

It's interesting but the article gave almost no details of how the study was performed. I really need to see the actual report from the study to see if there is any validity. From the synopsis it seems like its proving some people can get information through a sort of telepathic like link but I'm not sure what about the study shows that dead people are the ones communicating. For example, if you get a letter from a person and they die before it reaches you, it doesn't mean you are receiving messages from the afterlife. Anyways, I won't judge until I see the report, if I can find it.

[BABY J]

as always, nobody can prove anything to anyone. The evidence is listed numerous times in these threads. Our greater connection to one another, research demonstrating a spiritual existence of people long deceased...if you want to look for evidence and you are serious there are TON of resources at your local bookstore, google, etc etc...but the evidence of a great human character that is not physical is plentiful to say the least.

So you have none. Ok.

[The Ren]

I know everyone has their own opinion or beliefs but the FACT of the matter is..... You only get to HEAVEN one way and thats through JESUS CHRIST!! All other religions are FALSE. There is only ONE GOD and he is in HEAVEN and has an EMPTY tomb. Allah,Buddah, Muhammad and whoever else, they are all Burried in the ground!!!!!!!!!!! Believe whats in your heart, and when the day comes and your at the gates of HEAVEN they will look in the BOOK OF LIFE and see if your name is in it, and if you NEVER knew JESUS it won't be!!!!!!!!!!! SATAN and HELL are REAL and wait for all who don't BELIEVE!!!!!

This is not a topic to get into a heated religous discussion.. We shall agree to disagree because I do not believe what you have stated above..

[zimabog]

I know everyone has their own opinion or beliefs but the FACT of the matter is..... You only get to HEAVEN one way and thats through JESUS CHRIST!! All other religions are FALSE. There is only ONE GOD and he is in HEAVEN and has an EMPTY tomb. Allah,Buddah, Muhammad and whoever else, they are all Burried in the ground!!!!!!!!!!! Believe whats in your heart, and when the day comes and your at the gates of HEAVEN they will look in the BOOK OF LIFE and see if your name is in it, and if you NEVER knew JESUS it won't be!!!!!!!!!!! SATAN and HELL are REAL and wait for all who don't BELIEVE!!!!!

[_Christian_]

So please, define good, because there are plenty of "good" people doing evil things that are not people of some sort of faith. My point is that I do not consider myself good nor do I consider myself religious. Religious to me defines a person who believes that their goodness or lack of determines their sanctity. If I could honestly look at my life and consider myself to be "good" then there is a problem with my own view of myself. I have lied, I have stolen, I have hurt other people...so how can I qualify myself as good? All it takes is one time. The question of morality is right and wrong...it is yes or no...you either are good or you are not. If you have any wrong in you then you cannot be good. I could have lived a great life and my only wrong doing was murder...am I still good? I only did one wrong thing...why would I be bad? What is your definition of good vs bad? Do you think its a scale...the amount of good vs the amount of bad...

You aren't necessarily evil because you have done those things. Whether you are good or not has less to do with the quantity of evil deeds and more to do with the impact of those deeds on other people. If you murdered someone than you have caused the ultimate harm to that person. That makes you more evil than liars or thieves because you have inflicted the worst possible damage upon your fellow man.

The bible says it's a sin to lie, but what if I lived in Nazi Germany and was hiding Jews in my home. Then one day the Gestapo comes by and asks if I'm harboring Jews. In that case would lying be immoral? Would I be a better person for telling the truth?

now how do you know if your "good" deeds in and of themselves did not cause bad results? Are they still good if they do?

You don't always know. Sometimes what seems like the right thing to do can be wrong, in that case the deed is no longer good. However that doesn't make the person bad if they really meant to do good, it just means they made a mistake. I still think people should be held accountable for all their actions regardless of intent.

My point is that this statement assumes a universal definition and understanding of good. We do not carry one, yet we have a morally understood code, which Weinberg denies...well this is a philosophical problem. We do not have a definition of good yet we can call the acts of a man good or evil...This statement doesn't really make sense in his world view because good and evil are relative constructs of human intellect, and there is no ground for you to judge my good or bad because it is just as valuable as yours. When we prosecuted the generals of Nazi Germany this was not a suitable defense "in our country, doing what we did was legal therefor you cannot punish us for what we did in service of our country under our countries law" they made this argument and we said, yes we can because the laws that you violated were laws against all of mankind and the laws of man condemn you.

While I don't think there is an absolute objective good or evil, modern society has a fairly universal understanding of morality. We may disagree on some things but we have a general concept of what's right and what's wrong. Like I said above, it's based on how your actions effect those around you.

that is false. We do not have records of any society that was religion/faith free. Not a one. Now if you are talking about organized widespread religion then that is a different story...the mega churches and cultural priorities that infiltrate faith systems is damaging and that is something that happened in the last 3000 years.

Please show me evidence of religion in Homo habilis or even Homo erectus...

But I actually find it interesting that you said the wrong God vs the right God. For instance when you address the Judeo-Christian God vs Zeus and Thor, you are now talking about something much different. You are talking about something that has been argued with evidence vs something that has none to support the existence. This is a very significant that should be addressed.

They are all unfalsifiable and there is no evidence to support the existence of any god.

You are right though about some people taking more evidence to believe. I am one of those people, and it took tons of evidence for me to believe what I believe, but I will say that the evidence is there and I believe it is an act of God to open hearts to understanding of such things, because in the hardness of our hearts we can deny anything regardless of evidence...

If that's the case you should publish a peer reviewed scientific journal with all of your "evidence."

But back on topic,
The question about what happens after you die is not just a Christian question, but so many approach it that way when just about every religion contributes its understanding of morality to some sort of after this life reward. Now my beliefs are that the Christian faith has the best evidence laid out that if you were to bring the case to a court there could be no wrong, just as there was no wrong in Christ.

"If people are good only because they fear punishment, and hope for reward, then we are a sorry lot indeed."

How do you give account to the enumerable religions that all have beliefs in the afterlife, and how do you account for the studies that have been done and the paranormal to support such beliefs? I don't believe that the thousands upon thousands of accounts of paranormal activity are all wrong. In fact all it takes is one account to be true, just like with UFO's, Jesus.

Consensus does not equate truth.

[The Ren]

wow +28

[DustnU]

That is very true!! And so is what I stated above. I'm not trying to get heated it's my beliefs and that won't change. I feel for those who don't understatnd. Wish you all the best.

[BABY J]

A man who is not even OPEN to changing his "beliefs" may as well join a cult. That is a slick slope to be on.

[ARH1192]

After you die. Easy, you get buried 6 feet under. No heaven, no hell, no nothing.

[DustnU]

A man who is not even OPEN to changing his "beliefs" may as well join a cult. That is a slick slope to be on.

Not when they are the only TRUTH!!!!!!!! And the slick slope is Down on the way to HELL for those who aren't saved and accept JESUS as lord and Savior. Like I stated before there is no in between, no ridding fence no pergatory. It is only Heaven or Hell ^^^^^^ BTW you don't just die and get burried. Read the BIBLE!!!

[The Ren]

Not when they are the only TRUTH!!!!!!!! And the slick slope is Down on the way to HELL for those who aren't saved and accept JESUS as lord and Savior. Like I stated before there is no in between, no ridding fence no pergatory. It is only Heaven or Hell ^^^^^^ BTW you don't just die and get burried. Read the BIBLE!!!

I was trying to remain civilized but you sir are an idiot.

First off you need to learn how to spell.. second of all you say read the bible, but have you read it? No where in the old testament is there mention of hell... which is the original bible.. As baby J said.. those who are not "open" to accepting the views of others might as well be in a cult. Religion teaches tolerance not hatred as it seems you have.

[sport_122]

So you have none. Ok.

Because I know that you have read plenty of my post before, I will just leave this comment as it is...with all the stuff I have posted in these threads evidence is plentiful enough. It takes a man who is humble enough to say "I want to really look into this" to get off is butt and dig into it to see what it is really saying. I know you are more than capable of that.

A man who is not even OPEN to changing his "beliefs" may as well join a cult. That is a slick slope to be on.

for all you band-wagoneers this goes both ways. I have always said that if someone can provide good logical evidence that shows me that the resurrection of Christ did not happen and that transcendent things do not exist then I could recant my faith. But good luck on that because the very thing that I mention to you has be proven to me and the evidence is so great that my faith is strong and no other world view has successfully stood the test of time, and ages as that of the Judeo-Christian world view.

[The Ren]

Because I know that you have read plenty of my post before, I will just leave this comment as it is...with all the stuff I have posted in these threads evidence is plentiful enough. It takes a man who is humble enough to say "I want to really look into this" to get off is butt and dig into it to see what it is really saying. I know you are more than capable of that.



for all you band-wagoneers this goes both ways. I have always said that if someone can provide good logical evidence that shows me that the resurrection of Christ did not happen and that transcendent things do not exist then I could recant my faith. But good luck on that because the very thing that I mention to you has be proven to me and the evidence is so great that my faith is strong and no other world view has successfully stood the test of time, and ages as that of the Judeo-Christian world view.

I for one am not a band-wagoner.. I come from a very very long line of jews.. cohens to be exact (which were the high priests back in the "olden days") and I dont believe in jesus as being the son of g-d or the messiah.. I believe the messiah hasnt come yet. I have plenty of proof of my beliefs.. and those in my family who fought and died for our beliefs. Just like the tattoo my great grandfather had branded on him against his will, and those of my family who died unable to escape. But I am VERY tolerant of others beliefs.. heck my boyfriend isnt jewish. I still love him and he still loves me.. I will never push my beliefs on him and he would never push his beliefs on me.

[sport_122]

Sorry OP but this post is almost completely off topic.

Christian, there are plenty of other threads that this type of conversation could live in. but here is my response none the less.

You aren't necessarily evil because you have done those things. Whether you are good or not has less to do with the quantity of evil deeds and more to do with the impact of those deeds on other people. If you murdered someone than you have caused the ultimate harm to that person. That makes you more evil than liars or thieves because you have inflicted the worst possible damage upon your fellow man.

So... you also said this

I believe that when your body dies, your mind follows suit and returns to a state of nonexistence, just like before your birth.

Well if this is the case then how do you rationalize penalties for murder. If life has no value save for a little bit of fun, then why does it have value should it be taken? Why does the individual life, in your world view, warrant protecting? If once a person is dead, they have not cognitive or conscious existence then why are they valuable?

The bible says it's a sin to lie, but what if I lived in Nazi Germany and was hiding Jews in my home. Then one day the Gestapo comes by and asks if I'm harboring Jews. In that case would lying be immoral? Would I be a better person for telling the truth?

Again this question is misrepresenting the foundations of the Christian world view. As I stated in a previous post, you cannot be a better person either way, whether you tell the truth this time or whether you lie. It is very clear that the Bible states that none of us are good people. So in my worldview the only thing that can justify your actions, as loving actions, to save the lives of those you are harboring, is Christ, as his life is the only one that I believe to have ever been truly good.

Also, you misrepresent the commandment of lying. The commandments are about the condition of the heart during the deeds written with in. In other words, there is a very distinct difference between lying to save because of love, and lying to lie because of self preservation or malice intent. The condition of the heart in either of these opposing deeds is completely different. In the book of Samual God tells Samuel to be careful how he looks upon David (who would later be king), do not judge him based on his appearance because I have already rejecting him based on this, and then God tells Samuel, "but I am not a man, and what I am looking at (when looking at David) is his heart".

This is important, because as men we often try to judge whether or not we are "good" based on the outward. We do the same thing when we look at the character of God. But we cannot understand God therefore we are not able to give judgement toward him, yet we are given the

You don't always know. Sometimes what seems like the right thing to do can be wrong, in that case the deed is no longer good. However that doesn't make the person bad if they really meant to do good, it just means they made a mistake. I still think people should be held accountable for all their actions regardless of intent.

While I don't think there is an absolute objective good or evil, modern society has a fairly universal understanding of morality. We may disagree on some things but we have a general concept of what's right and what's wrong. Like I said above, it's based on how your actions effect those around you.

If there is no absolute morality, then how do you justify punishing anyone? If there is no absolute then how can you justify debating things in this thread? In saying there is no absolute, then you remove the validity of any statement that you make because you admit that what you say is not necessarily true, but its your opinion and anything you do is okay as long as it is your rule for yourself. This is where you lose the ability to punish those who do wrong because they are doing what is within their moral compass.

My christian world view, holds this accountability. How, because I believe that God is just, and that nothing can escape his justice and nothing can escape his law. I believe that his law is the absolute of which all men have built into the very DNA that identifies us. Outside of this worldview is relativism. You have just demonstrated relativism by saying that a persons actions can be bad, the person can be good, and they should be punished still.

Please show me evidence of religion in Homo habilis or even Homo erectus...

This question assumes that I believe in this type of evolution. I don't. But I can say that in all of our history and pre-history, every man that we can truthfully understand their ways of life, had some sort of understanding of our extra-physical existence. Which is why I said religion/faith. Because in all of our existence we have always known there was more, but we do not truly "know" God until he reveals himself to us.

You can know that something is there but now "know" the specifics of that thing.

They are all unfalsifiable and there is no evidence to support the existence of any god.

If that's the case you should publish a peer reviewed scientific journal with all of your "evidence."

The evidence is great. Its your ability or desire to really try to understand it that is lacking. Only a person in denial makes a statement like that. You see, I believe that all men know that there is a God, and we know that we have a set of rules of which we should live by that transcend our societal understandings of law. I think that is one of the reasons why people spend so much time trying to refute the evidence that is presented.

Much like your mother telling you to clean your room and you hear her calling your name ,but you simply ignore it. You know that she has the authority over you, yet you ignore her. You know that she can come into the room and punish you, yet you ignore her for the sake of your own foolishness, because you realize that your mother eventually will come and will set forth her authority over you. This is an example of the denial that I think some men demonstrate. You know in your deepest core that God is real, and so desperately we want to do our best to try to put him out of our minds because we also know that he is just and that he is powerful and that we have been running from him.



"If people are good only because they fear punishment, and hope for reward, then we are a sorry lot indeed."


Consensus does not equate truth.[/quote]

I agree... so how can you be a relativist? Now remember that same thing when you try to argue evolutionary stand points and when you try to explain away morality. How do you suppose this statement to be true in your world view...in mine, Truth exists, in yours how does it? how do you have absolute truth in a world of relativism?

My point in all of this is that in order to even begin to make statements to support your world view, you have demonstrated that we must take away ideas from the Christian world view. You mentioned justice, you mentioned truth, you mentioned law...and all of these things have no grounding in anything if they are seen purely as constructs of men and products of culture in society. If that were the case, then your world view also believes that you are foolish for wasting time discussion these things of which you do not believe to be true/real.

[DustnU]

Sorry!! I actually don't have Hatred for anyone. Some people are just more passionate about their views. You all are intitled to believe what you want to, but to me it just isn't the truth. Please don't be angry I wasn't trying to upset anyone. Believe what you will and I'll do the same.

[bu villain]

I'm glad you brought up the issue of taking the bible literally (e.g., think that all lying is equally bad) but unfortunately many people seem to take everything in it literally:

God made man is his own image = God looks like a human
The universe was created in 7 days = Universe created in 168 hours

Except of course when it comes to things like stoning people, women talking in church, etc.

Anyways I would like to respond to a couple points.

Well if this is the case then how do you rationalize penalties for murder. If life has no value save for a little bit of fun, then why does it have value should it be taken? Why does the individual life, in your world view, warrant protecting? If once a person is dead, they have not cognitive or conscious existence then why are they valuable?

Life not having a "purpose" is not the same as having no value. Most atheist believe life is very valuable, not because of God but because it has intrinsic worth. If we would like to live then by definition life has value. We protect life because if we do not, then it is more likely that our lives in turn will not be protected. That is also why we value animals lives less than our own. There is much less danger for humans by not protecting animal life.

If there is no absolute morality, then how do you justify punishing anyone? If there is no absolute then how can you justify debating things in this thread? In saying there is no absolute, then you remove the validity of any statement that you make because you admit that what you say is not necessarily true, but its your opinion and anything you do is okay as long as it is your rule for yourself. This is where you lose the ability to punish those who do wrong because they are doing what is within their moral compass.

Actually punishment is not based on morality always. Running a red light is not immoral, especially if you make sure the intersection is clear first but we punish people for it because it makes the streets safer. From a Christian perspective, why should anyone be punished by other people? I thought the Bible says not to judge others and that God is responsible for justice.

[sport_122]

Actually punishment is not based on morality always. Running a red light is not immoral, especially if you make sure the intersection is clear first but we punish people for it because it makes the streets safer. From a Christian perspective, why should anyone be punished by other people? I thought the Bible says not to judge others and that God is responsible for justice.

All laws flow from an understanding of morality. The government is charged with a moral obligation to protect and enforce rules that will protect citizens.

Now of course this is not the same kind of universal morality that we normally speak of. But for the believer, breaking the red light law, is an immoral act against the laws of God. Because we are commanded to follow the laws of God and the laws of the authorities placed over us (as long as they do not conflict with the laws of God), then we are responsible for obeying traffic laws, and following the legal framework as laid out by the authorities that God has placed over us.

I also believe there is a difference between our internal moral code and our development or the revelation of laws in our universe. One is embedded and we do not need to discover it because it is already within us, and the other needs to be revealed and can be very subjective based on an infinite number of factors.

[ahmonrah]

when we officially die, in the physical sense, i dont know what happens. but we also dont know how the electricity that powers our bodies gets there either. but i guess that whenever this physical shell ceases to function, the energy that powers us returns to it's origin. call it the universe, the creator, god or whatever, we dont know.

but even if we do know, we dont remember.

So to spin off of this topic into another, that's related.....REINCARNATION: POSSIBLE?
science says that energy cant be created, nor destroyed, it changes form. we are powered by electricity, which in some ways can be called the soul, can it(energy) be recycled into other physical forms?

[bu villain]

But for the believer, breaking the red light law, is an immoral act against the laws of God. Because we are commanded to follow the laws of God and the laws of the authorities placed over us (as long as they do not conflict with the laws of God), then we are responsible for obeying traffic laws, and following the legal framework as laid out by the authorities that God has placed over us.

For your own sake, I hope you never move to an authoritarian country.

[sport_122]

For your own sake, I hope you never move to an authoritarian country.

Well authoritarian gov'ts don't typically do well for anyone, but my world view would not changed. I would obey (to the best of my rebellious tendencies) every law that does not conflict with what is a higher law. Keep in mind that i believe this physical existence is only a piece of the whole me. I value life, but death is not the end.

The type of government doesn't matter. Look at history. We see people of faith in every culture, every tongue, and of every color. My worldview beckons me to subscribe to a greater rule of authority, and never does it promise me that this is simple. In fact it tells me the opposite. People died in Nazi Germany because they would not conform, some die in China because they will not conform, Christians were slaughtered in Rome for sport because they would not renounce their faith. People on this very forum have taken on assaults and ridicule just for saying they believe and their faith is in Christ. Why would I expect differently from the rest of the world? I don't.

Do you think democracies are better?

[bu villain]

If you lived in Nazi Germany circa 1939, and someone of high authority asked you if your neighbor was a jew (which you knew he was), would you lie or not? Which part of the bible overrules the Nazi authority asking a simple question?

[zimabog]

id tell them he was a jew, but thats just me

[The Ren]

id tell them he was a jew, but thats just me

So you would have no problem letting your neighbor die for being a jew?

[sport_122]

If you lived in Nazi Germany circa 1939, and someone of high authority asked you if your neighbor was a jew (which you knew he was), would you lie or not? Which part of the bible overrules the Nazi authority asking a simple question?

you may want to study up on this. The antisemitic movement did NOT start in 1939. It was seeded long before that. Also, your question is loaded. You are leaving out the fact that most Germans knew what was happening to Jews. It was no secret.

Also, you ask which part of the Bible overrules them asking this question. Very simple. The commandment to not Kill, not commit murder. You are trying to look at the end action as separate from the first action. If you set out to gather information with the intent of harming someone else it is called plotting to kill, or conspiracy to kill. Not only is this against the intended law given by God, but it is against the man made laws in most country's. You are trying to assume that God's law is the same as mans. God gave laws that were intended to judge the heart of the persons involved. The condition of your heart is what determines your actions. The heart of a person who commit malicious murder is not the same as a person who kills to defend his life from the same person. The heart of a person who lies to gain is not the same as the heart of a person who lies to protect as he is commanded to value life.

[BABY J]

^^ Interesting that you say this.

* God killed. In great number.

* Thou Shalt Not Kill doesn't make any provisions on when it's acceptable and when it's not in the bibles that I have read.

* Either it's the WORD OF GOD or not. Not The Word of God As [enter your name here] Believes It To Be This Particular Day and Time of The Week

* The fact that people TEACH this shit and gladly andopenly say "well I think what god means here" is pretty much how you know it's manufactured.

I mean think about it - if I am GOD and MY WORD is THE WORD - I don't need you to "decipher" or construct times when it's okay to defy it. Your lie about not having any1 in your basement could be part ofthe devil's plan, not God. I mean it IS a lie ya know. Your lie in this case ALSO spares YOUR life b/c if they knew they truth they'd punish/kill you for aiding the Jews. So this lie IS about personal gain in the end b/c you CHOSE TO BREAK THE LAW (more devilish behavior huh - I'm sure that's a Godlike quality) by harboring Jews in the 1st place and lieing about breaking the law is the only way to save your ass.

MAYBE you were supposed to tell the truth and die at the stake so people's hearts would be softened to end the incursion altogether.

[Maniacc]

Religion. Gotta love this topic.

I think everyone spends way to much time seeking peace in life, peace is endless so why waste your time? It's the other shit that ain't. Fear, anger, lust, hate, love, everything none peaceful - are the only things persuing. To me, a good life is just trying to go through it not being a douche.

Treat people well and enjoy the brief time you have. Don't worry about religion, if there is a god - as long as you behave you should be okay, right? Any god who would send you to eternal hellfire if you were a good guy, but didn't go to church every sunday is a huge fucking tool - who isn't worth worshiping.

I normally put more effort into my religious-posts, but it has come to a point where it doesn't bother me anymore. God's presence is always going to be around because humans are always going to need something to cling on, to help them through their problems. Wasting time, money, your faith, and energy into something you have no evidence on just isn't smart. I enjoy reading these discussions though.

[bu villain]

you may want to study up on this. The antisemitic movement did NOT start in 1939. It was seeded long before that. Also, your question is loaded. You are leaving out the fact that most Germans knew what was happening to Jews. It was no secret.

Also, you ask which part of the Bible overrules them asking this question. Very simple. The commandment to not Kill, not commit murder. You are trying to look at the end action as separate from the first action. If you set out to gather information with the intent of harming someone else it is called plotting to kill, or conspiracy to kill. Not only is this against the intended law given by God, but it is against the man made laws in most country's. You are trying to assume that God's law is the same as mans. God gave laws that were intended to judge the heart of the persons involved. The condition of your heart is what determines your actions. The heart of a person who commit malicious murder is not the same as a person who kills to defend his life from the same person. The heart of a person who lies to gain is not the same as the heart of a person who lies to protect as he is commanded to value life.

I'm not sure why I need to study up. I merely gave a date it could have happened in, I wasn't claiming that was the date antisemitism against Jews started. And I wasn't trying to be tricky by not saying something about knowing the Jew would die. I thought that would be obvious and didn't need to be stated. Is this hair splitting really necessary?

My point was simply that many laws are not moral. In this case, it would be illegal to harbor a jew or lie to say the SS but it would be ethical responsible to break such a law. You said before that as long as it doesn't break God's law then it is moral. I agree many laws are based on morality but disagree that we are morally obliged to follow all laws just because they aren't directly contradicted by the so called word of God.

Baby J seems to be on the same page with me here. You responded with what seems to be your interpretation of "Thou shall not kill". Where does God's word clarify this commandment for all the times it is okay to kill, or lie for that matter? I'm talking about verses in the Bible.

[geoff]

to bu villian, you have to understand the difference between the old testament and the new. it was never ok for one to take anothers life or to lie because men took it into their own hands to decide who lived or died. the people that God ordered to be slaughtered in the bible where sinners who worshiped false idols and broke His commandments and God clearly stated " the wages of sin is death" and " vengence is mine ". God never commanded anyone innocent to be killed, it was the punishment for those who turned against Him. in the new testament He gave us grace because people just couldnt follow the rules and NOT once in the new testament did God command anyone to kill.


also to The Ren, im curious as to why those of Jewish faith don't believe that Jesus was the Messiah? i got something bigger for you, what would you say if i told you He was more than that, that He was God Himself in flesh? i have scriptual evidence to support my claims ofcourse

[bu villain]

to bu villian, you have to understand the difference between the old testament and the new. it was never ok for one to take anothers life or to lie because men took it into their own hands to decide who lived or died. the people that God ordered to be slaughtered in the bible where sinners who worshiped false idols and broke His commandments and God clearly stated " the wages of sin is death" and " vengence is mine ". God never commanded anyone innocent to be killed, it was the punishment for those who turned against Him. in the new testament He gave us grace because people just couldnt follow the rules and NOT once in the new testament did God command anyone to kill.

Many Christians do believe in the Old Testament (e.g., Ten Commandments). Why don't you believe in the Old Testament? Why is the NT more valid than the OT? Sorry it's hard to know what Christians believe because there are so many different forms. After all, Jesus said:

"Do not think that I have come to abolish the law or the prophets. I have come not to abolish but to fulfill. Amen, I say to you, until heaven and earth pass away, not the smallest part or the smallest part of a letter will pass from the law, until all things have taken place." (Matthew 5:17 NAB)

[geoff]

i never said that i dont believe in the ot or that the nt makes the ot irrelevant. Jesus came cuz we as people couldnt live up to the law. So God came in flesh as Jesus and was the sacrifice for our sins. basically, we no longer have to sacrifice goats and all to forgive our sins, but without the blood of Jesus you will have to answer for the LAW on judgement day