Quote Originally Posted by sport_122
In fairness to understanding of the tangibility of all things, can you demonstrate to me tangible evidence of logic, love, grace, radio waves, the existence of the Andromeda Galaxy... All of these things require us to use the understanding that we have to be able to logically identify certain things without tangible evidence. For instance, you use logic every day to keep you alive, but it is not tangible, yet without it you would be dead and our civilization would not exist.

my point is that if you are asking someone to define a transcendent God (beyond understanding) then you cannot ask for tangibility as that requires something that can be touched which denotes understanding. However, you can ask for reasons for the persons faith, understanding that what is being presented to you is a case for their faith as based on the Bible believers are NOT supposed to believe blindly, but we are supposed to be able to present clearly the reasons for our faith. Cases for faith in science are considered proof even though they are just as valid as faith in anything provided we adhere to the existence of logic (again, something intangible guiding us). For instance the arguments on evolution, whether you believe it or not have not been concluded to be 100%, so there is a measure of faith because there still is no tangible evidence...there are only reasons to make the case for it.

The Faith that I have (and I assume Geoff) is based not off of just hearing and believing. It is also based off of an appealing to the senses of our world and the demonstration of its order and its law that exists in ALL things. I use science, philosophy, sociology, the Bible, history, and many other tools provided to us, with the understanding that if what I believe to be true, is true, then it will be demonstrated in ALL things. As what I believe is that our universe functions on laws and without these laws there would be no sciences, no morality, and no history to study, and we would not be having this discussion because the (lawlessness) of our universe would not have reasonably yielded this intelligence to us.

Lastly, my tangibility lies in the one who is the Christ. I can get you numerous names of scholarly authors who will tell you that this man not only lived, but he performed miracles, (which I can define in another post if it comes up) and there is good reason to believe that he did not stay dead after his death.

Please ask questions if you don't understand me.
I most certainly do NOT understand anything you wrote. I simply asked for tangible (something I can actually see or hear or touch). And by those I don't mean to see Bible. I don't mean to hear a preacher preach. I don't mean to touch whatever Christian people touch to make them believe. I want to see a ripped piece of God's clothing. I want to see an actual photo of God. The only form of proof believers have in His existence is their faith in Him.

No one will ever be able to provide materialistic proof of the Dude.

I haven't really said my stance on this topic (and it isn't what my posts may being saying about it). I am a questioning believer. I think i believe in Heaven and Hell and God and all. But I just have millions of questions about the whole thing. I am a realist, as well. When folks say there is proof everywhere of God's existence, I ask for real proof. And I don't want to hear, look around you. So I'm not a complete atheist or anything close to it, but more so "need actual proof before I can believe it fully" type of person. If you get what I'm saying. Later, QD.