Whether you believe in religion or not

[BABY J]

Are you serious? What do you mean reliable (here we go again with the subjective statements)?
How about this.
There are thousands of historical scripts. Hell the bible even has a complete and accurate lineagle listed to trace the lineage of jewish kings. Cross cultural references, where one culture says this happened between them and another culture and on both sides the accounts are the same. The Romans kept really good records, which give account to Jesus and Pilate and the problems which worried Rome in relation to the Jews and the emerging followers of Christ. There are TONS of records documenting the travels of Paul and Peter. There are tons of records giving information on Kind David, and Herod. The Egyptians have records of the mass exodus. The region and terrain show evidence of a great flood. To even say what you just said tells me that you have NOT even started to look. There are scrolls after scrolls telling about men who follwed Jesus who were going around doing miraculous things. There is MORE evidence to put historical perspective to the Bible than there is to anything else, becaue the writing took place over more than one thousand years. What do you think a group of guys sat down and wrote a book? When you write something over that amount of time and you include people who are very documented in history, then it is very simple to find validity in the text and its historical stance.

Maybe we could assume that this history is all about passed down perceptions. Well that would be the same case with all history which is why the only way to discuss this stuff again is to look at what we know to be universally true.

I find it funny that you would suggest that I use the term "the work of the devil". I have never said that to anyone in my life. I agree that my perspective is biased. When I got my degree in studies of Religion, it had nothing to do with just christianity. It was religion in general. It was MOSTLY historical information on the people involved in the foundations or respective religions. You dont seem to be able to understand that the bible has history because your preconseption is that its all christian mumbo jumbo.

The argument that you seem to be trying to make is the argument of relativity. That because I am a christian I think have a better scope. Wrong. I only think that I have universal reasons for belief in God. I am not asking anyone to be a christian, (which is a lot more than just belief).
Your post is quick to assume that you know my thoughts and you know where I am from. If that is the case please tell me. Who am I? What are my intentions? My intentions are to show you that your way of thinking, when left to itself and without the need for any christian or God references is faulted. Your beliefs do not agree with your own statements when aligned in your scope of logic, based of what you said. You didn't even know your arguments are those of that apethetic agnostic (which is a strong trend you are setting for someone who does not believe this to be true)

You are making the common error that people make when they start to fault at debate, or give up on understanding. You are trying to make it all personal and relative, but you are still failing to bring any good arguments to the table in response to my statements. The first thing YOU said in this thread was "its proven that religion has caused all these problems...". We are still waiting on that proof. You can go to a book store or library right now and find books about history that use the Bible as a source. And you can find books that are specifically about the lives of some of the people written in the bible, that are not books meant to "convert" you. You will need to look that up on your own, because as you said "even if you were smacked across the face< to see Jesus resurrected or Peter walking on water, you would dismiss it as witch craft. Tricks. Smoke and mirrors." If all there is is relativity then there is no point to us even talking. There is no point to us ever seeking any knowledge or trying to gain any understanding.

And how do you feel about ex-Creationists and ministers who have realized that it's all a bunch of silly myths after clinging desperately to scripture for years? And trust me, I've been all through the "Evidence That Demands a Verdict Series" and other Josh McDowell writings, as well as wandering though a lot of Hal Lindsey's works. Plus scores of others.

They all fall apart when scrutinized at a truly intellectual level. They use a document to prove itself. You cannot do this - it is an inherently flawed method of proof. By applying the same type of logic anything becomes true because it proves itself.

If you want to believe something, that's fine, that's faith. But don't try to turn it into a scientific or historical study because it will fall apart quickly under the jaundiced gaze of rigorous academic scrutiny.