Whether you believe in religion or not

[RL...]

These are probably some of the most ridiculous arguments against organized religion that I have ever heard. I am beginning to think that your way of viewing the world in an almost agnostic way is the reason you have made some completely strange and unfounded statements. You have stated that you believe that YOU are responsible for doing good and that the INDIVIDUAL should have the courage to believe in themself...

That is EXACTLY the problem. The jewish faith, which is the origin of the christian faith, and arguably the origin of the islamic faith, was passed down for many centuries WITHOUT a text. The reason this faith can claim its existence before the origins of men, is simple. Because they all believe that the foundation of their faith lies on something eternal. Christians believe that Jesus, God, and the Holy Spirit are eternal, existing before creation and that they are the embodiment of our moral code and law. Jews just believe in the spirit and God. there are crossing views on this as well. But my point is that before there were texts there were people following these faiths. So they didn't just pop up because someone wrote a book. The way you state that shows me that you know nothing about the origin of these faiths. They existed for hundreds of years before any script was ever written. It's called oral tradition, and it is still used today. Without it there is no history, there is no past, your ancestors do not exist, and people are no different than ants.

Why does it matter? Well with your method of thinking, there is NO law because individuals all have their own beliefs. Even in your statment, you said ,the individual should be encouraged to believe in themself... So I ask where does that leave you? If I want someone dead, and I am the authority what holds me back? What makes your desire for life trump my desire for your life to end? In your world, I am to look to myself for guidence, but that becomes anarchy because what is in me doesn't sync with what is in the other 6+ billion people in the world. I can take your life and I am justified in doing so because YOU have agreed that this is how the world should functions. There is no justice, because justice has to be grounded in law which can only be truly support when it is founded on an absolute. Absolutes must be eternal.

With your method, you can't say we have laws or a moral code, because (I think I've said to you before) without the existence of an eternal, even law is subjective and has no foundation of purpose or reality. And there is NO moral code except that of which I(the individual) have decided upon. There is no justice, because YOU cannot punish ME because I make MY rules.

You are trying to blame religion when in fact you should be looking at people (the individuals) who falsely represent a religion. This is what people who watch too much tv do when they hear about islamic terrorist. The estimated number of terrorists in the islamic faith is said to make up less than 1% of all muslims, but this faith has been demonized by the actions of a few. Its like the world looking at what an American government does and blames all of America as if you or I are sitting on capital hill dictacting our desires to committ attrocities around the globe. There have been billions upon billions of christians and muslims, and jews, but you chose to look at the few who have made history and you are trying to place your judgement on religion while ignoring the real fact. Without faith, and real believers, this world would be more dangerous, more deadly, and a worse place to live.

And even in muslim and christian circles people within those faiths look at people who make claims to be in the same faith and do not claim these people. The majority of muslims, say that, islamic terrorists, are not following the qu'ron. Poeple like Hitler were twisted and domented and were not doing what they did in the name of God.

In fact, they were doing exactly what YOU say they should. They were ignoring the totality of their texts for the sake of making themselves the authority. Hitler, was making, his way the law. He was denying scripture and sculpting his own world based off of his personal views while claiming to be a christian authority.

You claim to look at things with a greater good mentality. But I call BS. The greater good mentality would look at the totality of these things and how they promote love, order, peace, integrity, honesty, and passion, and want more of the world to live to these codes. I think you just have a personal agenda.

And you are wrong, the greatest feeling someone can feel is love. Love is not helping someone just to help someone. Love is helping someone because you really care for their well being. Love is the greatest thing someone can receive and the greatest thing someone can give. That should be the litmus test of the successes and failures of people of faith.

And with ALL of this said, I think you have proven one thing. The weakminded person is one who pulls ridiculous statements out of his ass, claiming proof, and showing none, and making arguments based off of God knows what. Maybe you should go study "the facts" on where these faiths come from, and really looking at the numbers and the history, try to decide if your statements made any since.

LOLOL

You might make some good points here and there but you have taken what I've said and distorted, no twisted my words 180 degrees. I am not agnostic, there is no doubt there there is some kind of higher power...I do not refer to it as god because I do not want ppl to mislead ppl to think that I am a christian or am referring to christianity's god or jesus....with that said...

First of all, Individuals such as you and I are responsible for the way this world is and will be. Not god, not buddha, not religion, although religion indirectly and directly affect the actions of millions of ppl, but it comes down to human choice. A choice to kill someone, or a choice to help someone...and yes, EVERYONE should believe in themselves more....

And the origin of christianity is not jewish faith, christianity is no more than a rip off of other religions that have preceeded it....

My method? My world? If you want to kill someone what's holding you back? I don't know why you would ask me such a ? but to answer it nothing but yourself. If you want to kill someone you could probably do it. But there are consequences...such as possible jail time etc....You keep referring to my method or my world, and yet you don't understand what I'm about. I am not saying there needs to be anarchy or no laws. An anarchal society would be utterly horrible. The fact is there are laws that bind society, but one can still deviate from that....at a price.....And we do have moral code....although it changes with society...

I think you are wrong about thinking laws have to based on absolutes, as there is nothing absolute in this world, everything is variable. Laws change as societys' perspective changes, to meet our chaning views and as our society gets smarter. Such as racism etc...I mean it wasn't until the 60's when discrimination was made illegal for house rentals which is pretty recent

I don't know why you're lecturing us about islamic terroists and hitler and whatnot, I know not to judge a group of ppl by the actions of a few, and I do not...although we can all agree female asian drivers are the worst!

I do look @ things with a greater good mentality.

The greatest feeling someone can achieve is love and helping others....I think I've said that earleir so how could I be wrong?

[sport_122]

LOLOL

You might make some good points here and there but you have taken what I've said and distorted, no twisted my words 180 degrees. I am not agnostic, there is no doubt there there is some kind of higher power...I do not refer to it as god because I do not want ppl to mislead ppl to think that I am a christian or am referring to christianity's god or jesus....with that said...

you also said in another thread "God has no direct influence on this planet or what happens on it, good or bad. God(or gods/whatever is out there) could be good, could be bad, I think it is neither. I think it just is."

undeniably statements of an agnostic. Its what you are whether you believe it or not. It just defines your beliefs.
http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Agnosticism
more
http://arts.cuhk.edu.hk/humftp/E-tex...l/agnostic.htm
more
http://www.merriam-webster.com/dictionary/agnostic
you sir are an Agnostic and don't even know it!
http://www.religioustolerance.org/agnostic.htm

Well if you need more proof let me know. Its only a google of agnostic or (especially apathetic agnosticism) away.

You are very wrong about the Christian faith. The Christian faith directly stems from the first major mono-theistic faith, Judaism. There are similarities between this and other faiths, but it does not change its origins. That's like saying that the only real religion is whatever the FIRST one was because it was first and everything else was copied. So all religions after are posers.

When we speak of law and absolutes lets go back to the concept of laws and what they were intended to do. Laws were intended to help society function. All written law, and unwritten, has its place to support human life and well being within a society. Written law all stems from the same moral code or moral law. Those are things that are the laws about murder, theft, etc etc. People all over the world when they kill they have to try to justify it some way. That's because the entire world views the taking of life as a wrong thing to do. Which proves that their is something in humans that tells us that killing is wrong.

I have commented on the choice thing on another thread so I will not go back into that.

Lastly, you said
"First of all, Individuals such as you and I are responsible for the way this world is and will be. Not god, not buddha, not religion, although religion indirectly and directly affect the actions of millions of ppl, but it comes down to human choice. A choice to kill someone, or a choice to help someone...and yes, EVERYONE should believe in themselves more...."

and then you said
"I don't know why you're lecturing us about islamic terroists and hitler and whatnot, I know not to judge a group of ppl by the actions of a few, and I do not...although we can all agree female asian drivers are the worst!"

again a contradiction (EVEN IN THE SAME POST)
The people I listed did exactly what you started this thread about. But what you say is that it would be a better world if people believed in themselves. The same people who you can contribute to creating these terrible religions and governments, and performing horrible acts toward one another, you want them to be relinquished of "religion" as if it is going to make them better people. It wont because these people have already proven that they are ignoring the doctrines of their faith in light of "believing in themselves" So how do you figure that makes sense?

So what is it to you? Is your culprit religion, or is it the individuals. It can't be both in this case, because you have attacked the system and the individual. Its either that one of them is right and one is wrong or they both are wrong. But if they both are wrong, then you can't say that you think people should look to themselves because you have indirectly placed humans as responsible for the bad in our world either through religion or through their own philosophy of life. You want people to take your arguments seriously (some I do) but you don't seem to know what your argument is.

So how about you tell us specifics? Why don't you actually step up and provide us with specifics on when a religion, in its very doctrine says that we are to commit genocide, or when a religion in its doctrine said, lets hurt people, lets hate people. Give us that example? Let us know what you mean when you say religion, because to me "in the name of religion" means nothing unless you can tell me about the individual. Because you yourself said that you do not judge a group of people by the actions of a few, but that is exactly what you are doing. You are taking the 99% of the world who have some sort of faith and judging them based off of the 5% who claim faith but do stupid things.

There is no way around your skew here. If it is the religion then we can talk about how billions of people in our world are "religious" and the high majority of them have nothing to do with the problems in our respective societies. Or you can look at the individuals as a whole who do not follow the rules of their faith. That would be like saying laws in America are pointless because look at how many people break them and make our world a worse place to live.

so what is the point for you? Why do you even post on here? You made a blanket statement of which you have not shown your sources? Is it that YOU have been jaded by people of faith, I would bet Christianity because you used the term "saves" in your first post, when in fact ONLY Christianity uses it widely? Is that you just can't stand it? Because all I can see is you using the actions of a few to define ME and my family and MY friends whom I know do 10 times more to serve individually than any of the non-theists I know. Boy Scouts, Salvation Army, Red Cross, Habitat 4 Humanity, over seas missions, educators peace corps, these things all have their foundations in service and that service is spawned by religion.

As much as I would like to continue this discussion with you I am going to start ignoring what you post. Mostly because you do not have a specific goal in your statements and responding to you is beginning to be the same with no advance in thought. You don't seem to have a direction in your arguments, and your points are actually starting to contradict the very nature of your POV. I would just like to see you get specific with real examples and real points.

...BTW I think I agree with the female asian driver statement.

[RL...]

I am not an agnostic as I do acknowledge a higher power....

this is wiki definition: philosophical view that the truth value of certain claims — particularly metaphysical claims regarding theology, afterlife or the existence of deities, ghosts, or even ultimate reality — is unknown or, depending on the form of agnosticism, inherently impossible to prove or disprove.

I do not see things this way. I do acknowldege higher power, but can one prove it? Not in the sense that I can show you god and say, look here's god. But I think it is proven with each sunset and each sunrise...

And then it says agnostics view theology as unprovable or unkown, again, I do not look at things as such. I think all theologies are false. That's not to say religions don't have things to offer to SOME ppl and teach about living well, but I jsut do not believe that religions are true...

As far as afterlife goes, I think there is complete nothingness, much like how before we were born there was nothingness, we were not in existance yet. And when we die, we die, and there is no heaven, no hell. I also do not belive in "souls", I think ppl tend to make humans out to be something we are not. We are simply mammals. Yes, we are the most resourceful mammals on this planet, but to think that we have souls and religions, then why, maybe frogs have souls and religions? I mean, why should religion, souls, and all these religious concepts only be particular to one species of life on this planet, homo sapiens? We are here to live, and to die. Nothing more, nothing less.

[sport_122]

I am not an agnostic as I do acknowledge a higher power....

this is wiki definition: philosophical view that the truth value of certain claims — particularly metaphysical claims regarding theology, afterlife or the existence of deities, ghosts, or even ultimate reality — is unknown or, depending on the form of agnosticism, inherently impossible to prove or disprove.

I do not see things this way. I do acknowldege higher power, but can one prove it? Not in the sense that I can show you god and say, look here's god. But I think it is proven with each sunset and each sunrise...

And then it says agnostics view theology as unprovable or unkown, again, I do not look at things as such. I think all theologies are false. That's not to say religions don't have things to offer to SOME ppl and teach about living well, but I jsut do not believe that religions are true...

As far as afterlife goes, I think there is complete nothingness, much like how before we were born there was nothingness, we were not in existance yet. And when we die, we die, and there is no heaven, no hell. I also do not belive in "souls", I think ppl tend to make humans out to be something we are not. We are simply mammals. Yes, we are the most resourceful mammals on this planet, but to think that we have souls and religions, then why, maybe frogs have souls and religions? I mean, why should religion, souls, and all these religious concepts only be particular to one species of life on this planet, homo sapiens? We are here to live, and to die. Nothing more, nothing less.

Dude, don't look now, but you are STILL making Apathetic arguments!

When you say that I think there is a God, but we do not know him/her/it etc. And then you say God has nothing to do with what is going on in the world. You have just made agnostic arguments.

BTW... If you read up on hedonism, that is where the agnostic classes typically end up. With the argument that the only knowledge is self knowledge and the only goodness is self goodness, and to live in this world it will take you implicating yourself as the authority and not a god.

These are all inclusive in agnosticism.
I have done TONS of research on this. I can put you in touch with some professors, pastors, other agnostics if you want. Maybe they can clarify it to you.

The reason they even have an Agnostic branch of the church is for people who believe in God or are not sure, but don't believe God is knowable.

http://www.uctaa.net/ourchurch/intro.html
http://www.geocities.com/bicolagnostics/

You are agnostic. Call someone else and ask them.

[RL...]

Dude, don't look now, but you are STILL making Apathetic arguments!

When you say that I think there is a God, but we do not know him/her/it etc. And then you say God has nothing to do with what is going on in the world. You have just made agnostic arguments.

BTW... If you read up on hedonism, that is where the agnostic classes typically end up. With the argument that the only knowledge is self knowledge and the only goodness is self goodness, and to live in this world it will take you implicating yourself as the authority and not a god.

These are all inclusive in agnosticism.
I have done TONS of research on this. I can put you in touch with some professors, pastors, other agnostics if you want. Maybe they can clarify it to you.

The reason they even have an Agnostic branch of the church is for people who believe in God or are not sure, but don't believe God is knowable.

http://www.uctaa.net/ourchurch/intro.html
http://www.geocities.com/bicolagnostics/

You are agnostic. Call someone else and ask them.

I haven't done research but I've read what agnosticism is about, if thats a word, and it doesnt fit me...nor my views

[RL...]

you also said in another thread "God has no direct influence on this planet or what happens on it, good or bad. God(or gods/whatever is out there) could be good, could be bad, I think it is neither. I think it just is."

undeniably statements of an agnostic. Its what you are whether you believe it or not. It just defines your beliefs.
http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Agnosticism
more
http://arts.cuhk.edu.hk/humftp/E-tex...l/agnostic.htm
more
http://www.merriam-webster.com/dictionary/agnostic
you sir are an Agnostic and don't even know it!
http://www.religioustolerance.org/agnostic.htm

Well if you need more proof let me know. Its only a google of agnostic or (especially apathetic agnosticism) away.

You are very wrong about the Christian faith. The Christian faith directly stems from the first major mono-theistic faith, Judaism. There are similarities between this and other faiths, but it does not change its origins. That's like saying that the only real religion is whatever the FIRST one was because it was first and everything else was copied. So all religions after are posers.

When we speak of law and absolutes lets go back to the concept of laws and what they were intended to do. Laws were intended to help society function. All written law, and unwritten, has its place to support human life and well being within a society. Written law all stems from the same moral code or moral law. Those are things that are the laws about murder, theft, etc etc. People all over the world when they kill they have to try to justify it some way. That's because the entire world views the taking of life as a wrong thing to do. Which proves that their is something in humans that tells us that killing is wrong.

I have commented on the choice thing on another thread so I will not go back into that.

Lastly, you said
"First of all, Individuals such as you and I are responsible for the way this world is and will be. Not god, not buddha, not religion, although religion indirectly and directly affect the actions of millions of ppl, but it comes down to human choice. A choice to kill someone, or a choice to help someone...and yes, EVERYONE should believe in themselves more...."

and then you said
"I don't know why you're lecturing us about islamic terroists and hitler and whatnot, I know not to judge a group of ppl by the actions of a few, and I do not...although we can all agree female asian drivers are the worst!"

again a contradiction (EVEN IN THE SAME POST)
The people I listed did exactly what you started this thread about. But what you say is that it would be a better world if people believed in themselves. The same people who you can contribute to creating these terrible religions and governments, and performing horrible acts toward one another, you want them to be relinquished of "religion" as if it is going to make them better people. It wont because these people have already proven that they are ignoring the doctrines of their faith in light of "believing in themselves" So how do you figure that makes sense?

So what is it to you? Is your culprit religion, or is it the individuals. It can't be both in this case, because you have attacked the system and the individual. Its either that one of them is right and one is wrong or they both are wrong. But if they both are wrong, then you can't say that you think people should look to themselves because you have indirectly placed humans as responsible for the bad in our world either through religion or through their own philosophy of life. You want people to take your arguments seriously (some I do) but you don't seem to know what your argument is.

So how about you tell us specifics? Why don't you actually step up and provide us with specifics on when a religion, in its very doctrine says that we are to commit genocide, or when a religion in its doctrine said, lets hurt people, lets hate people. Give us that example? Let us know what you mean when you say religion, because to me "in the name of religion" means nothing unless you can tell me about the individual. Because you yourself said that you do not judge a group of people by the actions of a few, but that is exactly what you are doing. You are taking the 99% of the world who have some sort of faith and judging them based off of the 5% who claim faith but do stupid things.

There is no way around your skew here. If it is the religion then we can talk about how billions of people in our world are "religious" and the high majority of them have nothing to do with the problems in our respective societies. Or you can look at the individuals as a whole who do not follow the rules of their faith. That would be like saying laws in America are pointless because look at how many people break them and make our world a worse place to live.

so what is the point for you? Why do you even post on here? You made a blanket statement of which you have not shown your sources? Is it that YOU have been jaded by people of faith, I would bet Christianity because you used the term "saves" in your first post, when in fact ONLY Christianity uses it widely? Is that you just can't stand it? Because all I can see is you using the actions of a few to define ME and my family and MY friends whom I know do 10 times more to serve individually than any of the non-theists I know. Boy Scouts, Salvation Army, Red Cross, Habitat 4 Humanity, over seas missions, educators peace corps, these things all have their foundations in service and that service is spawned by religion.

As much as I would like to continue this discussion with you I am going to start ignoring what you post. Mostly because you do not have a specific goal in your statements and responding to you is beginning to be the same with no advance in thought. You don't seem to have a direction in your arguments, and your points are actually starting to contradict the very nature of your POV. I would just like to see you get specific with real examples and real points.

...BTW I think I agree with the female asian driver statement.

Christianity, along with all other theistic belief systems is the greatest fraud of all time. It serves to detatch us from the world and each other. It submits blind submission to authority. It reduces human responsibility to the effect that god "controls everything". And in turn, awful crimes can be justified in the name is a divine pursuit. and it empower those who know the truth, but use the myth to manipulate and control society. The religious myth is the most powerful myth ever created.

Circumcision, the great flood, baptism, afterlife, final judgement, virgin birth, resurection, crucifiction, saviors, communion, easter, xmas, passover, etc... are all egyptian ideas, and egyptian mythology long predates christianity or judaism...these are facts....coincidence....I think not....

yes, laws have been established by society to try and mantain order and "peace"...and are INTENDED to help society...I woudl say the majority of the world views killing as bad, but that really jsut depends on the circumstance doesn't it? After killing someone who is about to rape you or killing someone because you just feel like it are 2 different things right? I don't see the point you are making....

YOU completely take what I say and distort it. I did not ever say religion TELLS ppl to do bad things or it teaches ppl to do wrong. I said that ppl have done bad things feeling justified by their religion, which is true and undeniable. I did not contradict myself at all.

As far as the culprit or my point is here it goes...I will try and make it sounds as unambiguous as possible.

Religion helps a lot of ppl, it does alot of good, and it also cause a lot of damage and ppl do unspeakable things because of it, that's not to say that religion is telling ppl to act a fool, but everyone interpretes it in their own way, which is also why there are 256725 different types of christianity and bibles alone...

People shape this world, not god, not religion. But people actions are based off of what? Off of their mental perspectives and ideaologies. And most ppl in this world are religious to some extent, to some religion, which influences how each of those ppl live and make choices.

I think when we as a society one day reaches a point where we all live each day trying to further our civilization as a whole, instead of jsut trying to further ourselves for personal gain, that we will realize religion was unnecessary, and that we can prosper, function, and live life to the fullest without it.

I do not define you or anyone else by the actions of a few. Just because you are christian or buddhist or whatever I do not think badly of you nor do I classify you as some type of person....I accept everyone for who they are and I accept that ppl are different with different views...and who knows, I could very well be wrong about everything...After all the smartest thing anyone can do is realize their own ignorance and stupidity

My point, I don't really have a point....No matter what I can not change your mind nor vice versa, we are jsut having a debate here, and I am throwing out my opinions, I do not plan to change anyones minds, I am just argueing from my side...