Quote Originally Posted by BABY J
LOL @ people "believing that" some eternal thing existed before them - lol. At some point a PERSON or PEOPLE "created" or "organized" that thought. Those people did NOT have proof of such eternal pre-existing entity... and they still don't. Those thoughts were CREATED out of a need/want to understand --- it's no different than kids believing that rain is angels crying --- it helps then understand it until they are older and smart enough to realize it's great mind-fuck... just like religion.

Carry on...
so where do you think the beginnings on knowledge come from. The beginnings of reason, discovery, etc?

There is no ability to understand things without something eternal. Without some sort of beginning to knowledge all things are based off of a guess. With the logic that you use all things taught whether its history, science, math, are all a part of a human creation which means their foundations are void because there is no truth to any of them. But knowledge had to exist before a person could even come to the conclusion that they "wanted or needed" to know how something works or where something comes from.

The very desire to want to know something exists. Where does desire come from? Not to be confused with instinct. Eating, sleeping, are instinctive, the desire to want to know how that works comes from somewhere else. Where would you say? It cannot be created by men ,because it existed before men began to understand what it was.

I guess my point is simply that to say that many cultures of different faith or origins acknowledge the existence of something greater because of the human ability to reason. In your statement it seems like you want to ignore everything that existed before we could define it as if we defined it to define our existence. The chronology is wrong because the concept had to come first. Before there is a question, before there is a need, before there is longing, there is a desire of knowledge as to how those things will sustain, or help a person cope with whatever it is.

So many people want to walk on both sides of the line and say that they believe in logic, reason, and understanding, but not an eternal something. The problem is that logic and reason and understanding exist on the same side of the line as the eternal something.

My belief in God stems from the fact that if I sit there and try to understand anything it always comes back to a foundation in something (an idea or concept) that is not going anywhere and has been around for a long time.