Do you believe we are alone in this Universe???

[Jaimecbr900]

It was written by humans.

Who else WOULD write anything down? The aliens that don't exist????

I know where you're going with it, but think about this:

I'll buy into yall's logic for a sec that if a human wrote and humans are fallable, then there is possibility of fallability in their writtings. Then how come it is that using that same logic, yall's logic, is it possible that we KNOW beyond any doubt what is and what isn't outer space. In other words, if humans make massive mistakes such as, according to yall, the Bible then is it possible that they be sooooo right about space?????

You can't have it both ways. Humans are humans when it comes to writting the Bible yet omnipotent about space.

The only limited minds are the ones that buy into that BS and don't question it.

Why? Because it makes someone "smart" by merely questioning something? Any simpleton can question ANYTHING....it doesn't change that they're a simpleton.

I also never said that there is life outside of our planet, but considering it goes for infinity, it is reasonable to think that there is. The truth of the matter is we don't really know for sure on either subject, gods or galaxies. We are humans. We are stupid. :jerkit: I wonder if in 2000 years people will believe L. Rob Hubbard was some kind of prophet and messenger of God.

If you have no faith that's your perrogative, but it's awful crass to then say that if someone else does they are stupid.

[Jaimecbr900]

Keep buying into the bullshit you've been fed your whole life if it makes you feel better though, just don't be suprised when someone else can see if for the fairy tale it is.

It seems you're more surprised that someone believes it.

Trust me, I know there are plenty of people out there just like you that don't believe at all. Again, that's your perrogative totally. Just like its mine to believe what I feel is right.

BTW, it actually does make me feel better.

[Ncturnal]

BTW, it actually does make me feel better.

Great, keep doing it then. If it makes your existence here more meaningful, by all means. It doesn't make it anymore valid or true, but if it makes you feel better, have at it.

[4dmin]

It's ironic that you have "faith" in extraterrestrial life that has NEVER been seen, proven, or even heard, yet you have no "faith" that Jesus lived although there are countless of records showing the contrary. It seems that Jesus is far more likely to have been a reality than getting all excited about a squiggly line in a rock on Mars that even in your report admits NOT that it "is" but that it "MAY BE" something. Again, it's something that will NEVER be able to be directly rebutted since the rock will ALWAYS remain on Mars and unable to be looked at by scientists except thru blurry pics.

your way of thinking is very closed for someone so smart ... "faith/belief" is how i posted, and i never stated i have faith in anything... a belief that something is true yes, b/c the story i post is a rock that is here in the US maybe you should read up some more. that rock is real and blurry picture your talking about is it being examined under a micro scope.

How can you say Jesus was reality knowling you have no proof of this other than a book that has been manipulated and written by man. So in this case the rock is real, when you find the body of christ let me know... by the way your savior isn't even as old as caveman we have found so what does that say for your proof. If we have the knowledge yet you smart christians can't find your savior maybe he doesn't exsist and the book you been basing your life on is nothing more than a fable or the great work of the Deciever

[ISAtlanta300]

There are literally thousands of different religions based on what is "supposedly" the same book. How the hell can that be?

Different interpretations by different people. Some people want to believe in it. Others want to refute it. Part of life. Just the same reason that there are literally thousands of different versions of history books.

I'm certain at this point, we are so fucking far off that it would be laughable if we knew the actual truth. Keep buying into the bullshit you've been fed your whole life if it makes you feel better though, just don't be suprised when someone else can see if for the fairy tale it is.

Again, that is but your opinion in the grander scheme of things.

See the thing I do not get is this: People like you always complain that so called bible thumpers want to try to convince you or force you to convert. But you are trying to get those who believe NOT to believe, i.e. to "convert" them into non-believers. Just because Jamie does believe does not mean he is "buying" into the bullshit. He could say the same thing about you, "buying" into the bullshit of darwinism and not believing etc. He has the right to believe in whatever he wants to and you should not call "bullshit" just because you do not see it that way.

He does not force his belief on you, so you should not force your "beliefs" onto him either and call him out on it...

[Ncturnal]

Different interpretations by different people. Some people want to believe in it. Others want to refute it. Part of life. Just the same reason that there are literally thousands of different versions of history books.

Enough said right there. You prove my own point.

[4dmin]

See the thing I do not get is this: People like you always complain that so called bible thumpers want to try to convince you or force you to convert. But you are trying to get those who believe NOT to believe, i.e. to "convert" them into non-believers. Just because Jamie does believe does not mean he is "buying" into the bullshit. He could say the same thing about you, "buying" into the bullshit of darwinism and not believing etc. He has the right to believe in whatever he wants to and you should not call "bullshit" just because you do not see it that way.

He does not force his belief on you, so you should not force your "beliefs" onto him either and call him out on it...

I'm sorry if you don't believe in GOD or the bible how are you trying to convert people? and what are you converting them to??? don't you have to have something to convert to?

also how can you say someone buying into bullshit if they aren't trying to stand on stories/ideas of a book??? i don't think anyone has menioned darwin or any other belief system for that matter.

[Jaimecbr900]

your way of thinking is very closed for someone so smart ... "faith/belief" is how i posted, and i never stated i have faith in anything... a belief that something is true yes, b/c the story i post is a rock that is here in the US maybe you should read up some more. that rock is real and blurry picture your talking about is it being examined under a micro scope.

I used the word FAITH simply because by definition it is believing in something that logically can't be explained. It's a play on words. YOU said you felt that there had to be life in outer space eventhough none has ever been seen, heard, or found in the entire existance of mankind, i.e. you have "faith" (because it defies logic) that something that can't be seen IS there yet you can't believe people like me have faith of a different kind???

Again, like I told Brian ealier.....you can't have it both ways.

How can you say Jesus was reality knowling you have no proof of this other than a book that has been manipulated and written by man.

Now, you mean to tell me that you honestly believe that I don't have any "proof" that Jesus was real????? After our many discussions????

I'll clarify it further then because you obviously didn't listen to me:

I have ALL the "proof" that I need to believe that Jesus not only existed but is also my only way to salvation.

I don't need a fossil or some writing in a cave wall to convince me any further. Kinda like Renee Zelwegger (sp?) said to Tom Cruise when she said the line, "You had me at "hello"..." I stopped questioning IF there was a GOD, Jesus, Angels, Heaven, Hell, and everything else when I simply admitted that I "believed". When I came to that decision, I also made a conscious decision to not question the Bible either. That is totally my choice and I made it because I wanted to.

You have a completely different view and like I also said to Bryan, that is totally your perrogative. I am neither responsible for that decision, because I tried to tell you what little I know, nor going to have to live by that decision. That's just how the ball bounces sort of speak.

You're not any less a friend of mine. We just totally disagree on this subject and that too is life.

by the way your savior isn't even as old as caveman we have found so what does that say for your proof. If we have the knowledge yet you smart christians can't find your savior maybe he doesn't exsist and the book you been basing your life on is nothing more than a fable or the great work of the Deciever

How many cavemen were there all together? Throughout the age of the cavemen? Maybe quite a few, huh? Let's go a little further, how many people have been on the face of the earth, according to the HISTORY books you hold as so totally true, in just the last 2000 years? Billions? Let's go even further, how many "famous" people that YOU believe lived that were around AFTER Jesus' time do we have "remains" of today??????

My point is that once again because you are using logic to try and decipher something that is FAITH based, you are chasing your tail around in circles. Even if you use your logic, how come you believe whole heartedly that Constantine the Great in fact existed even though there are no fossils of his body but merely history books writen about him?????? Again, it really boils down to what you WANT to believe and what you don't.

My point to all you is that yall CHOOSE to believe some things that defy logic but then question others that are just as defying to logic. Again, you can't have it both ways.

[4dmin]

^ your back bone for discussion is that "you believe" that is not fact or truth. i love these kind of talks b/c religious people will try to prove what they can but when it comes to down to content you are full out of it; like the rest. lets take the noah story people trying to prove it is real up in the turkey mountains, why is there a need to prove if all you have to do is believe. this discussion is the same you use your Telescope to try to state a reason why there isn't life else where, but when asked to back up your own belief system you can't.

In your own words "YOU CAN'T HAVE IT BOTH WAYS".

[Jaimecbr900]

^ your back bone for discussion is that "you believe" that is not fact or truth. i love these kind of talks b/c religious people will try to prove what they can but when it comes to down to content you are full out of it; like the rest. lets take the noah story people trying to prove it is real up in the turkey mountains, why is there a need to prove if all you have to do is believe. this discussion is the same you use your Telescope to try to state a reason why there isn't life else where, but when asked to back up your own belief system you can't.

In your own words "YOU CAN'T HAVE IT BOTH WAYS".

That's really simple to explain actually.

It's non-believers like you guys that constantly want something to touch and examine and question that make us come full circle around to what was told to you since the beginning: We simply believe.

People like you guys can't take that as an answer. You have to have fossils and pictures on a cave to believe. Again, that is totally your perrogative. Some people need whatever they need to believe or not believe. Some of us got to a point in our lives where it all made sense and clicked. Some of you haven't or will never get there. Once again, that is yall's perrogative. Like I said before, this whole argument can go easy way or the long hard way. The ironic thing is that it really boils down to a simple answer: You either believe it or you don't. It really is that black and white and that cut and dry. We can micro disect this 50 ways to Sunday, but it doesn't make it any more or any less than what it is. Believe or not. It's an individual perrogative and sometimes try as you may you can't convince everyone as to the "why".

[AWD OWNZ U]

Kinda like the odds of "them" being there since there hasn't been a peep heard or seen in the entire history of the world.

No actually not at all. I don't think you quite grasp the situation to be honest. Let's say you are standing in the middle of downtown ATL. I give you a pair of binoculars and ask you to find a polar bear. Would you be able to find it? Even if you look for 40 years? Now imagine the earth is thousands of times larger and the polar bear thousands of times smaller. That's probably too optimistic of a scale to be honest.

Again, what's ironic is that although everyone here trying to convince others that life exists somewhere out there in that "infinite vast space" we know soooo little about even by all yall's admission, THAT to you guys is far more possible than the BIBLE.....

We've had hundreds of thousands of people for thousands of years dedicate there lives to finding God and they have come up with no tangible proof. We've had a handful of people look part time for maybe 30-40 years for aliens with the same result. Believing in which one seems more foolish with your logic?

Yall fall over yourself to try and convince someone that something exists although it's NEVER been seen or heard from, yet act like people that believe someone of flesh and blood that existed 2000 years ago are just plum crazy........yall believe life exists based on FAITH and yet having the same FAITH in something that has tangible proof in WRITTEN HISTORY is NOT possible???.

I'm not trying to convince you that anything exists. Just that closing your mind to the possibilty is foolish.

How can you anyone say in one breath that our "minds can't imagine" the vastness of space, yet in the next breath question the Bible using that same and self admitted limited mind??????

That's simple, they are completely different. If you started counting right now by the time you die the number you were at wouldn't be anywhere near the size of universe. Yet I can read the bible in a week or so.

[Jaimecbr900]

No actually not at all. I don't think you quite grasp the situation to be honest. Let's say you are standing in the middle of downtown ATL. I give you a pair of binoculars and ask you to find a polar bear. Would you be able to find it? Even if you look for 40 years? Now imagine the earth is thousands of times larger and the polar bear thousands of times smaller. That's probably too optimistic of a scale to be honest.

You just made my point abundantly clear. Even though the "odds" are infinitely stacked against you or anyone else EVER PROVING that there is ANY other life forms out there, YALL STILL BELIEVE THERE IS. Yet in the very next breath you chastise people like myself that believe in something far more LIKELY, even by your own admissions, like God and Jesus.

That's what I've been saying all along, but yall want to fight me tooth and nail about it. Is that reasoning not tangible enough for you?

We've had hundreds of thousands of people for thousands of years dedicate there lives to finding God and they have come up with no tangible proof. We've had a handful of people look part time for maybe 30-40 years for aliens with the same result. Believing in which one seems more foolish with your logic?

Again, no tangible proof for non-believers like yourself. As I explained clearly already several times, BELIEVERS got to be BELIEVERS because they got ALL the "proof" they needed to BELIEVE. YOU on the other hand need a signed note from God himself, Jesus' femur bone fossilized on the side of mountain, and an Angel to deliver it all in order to "believe".

BTW, you forgot to consider ancient astronomers, and even millions of ancient people that worshiped everything from the Sun to the Stars too. So it's not merely a "handful of people looking part time" as you say. There are many thousands, if not hundreds of thousands, of people from scientists that dedicate their lives to finding life outside our solar system to the amateur with a fancy high power telescope to ancient people that have been gazing up at the stars for eons now. They've seen comets, asteroids, pulsars, black holes, and even rings on planets, but yet no forms of life.

Again, it's simply ironic that you guys hold that much hope for something that is far LESS likely to EVER be "proven", yet yall trip all over yourselves to try and "prove" the Bible is wrong.

Let me ask you a question: Do you believe in miracles or do you believe in chance?

I'm not trying to convince you that anything exists. Just that closing your mind to the possibilty is foolish.

My mind is far from closed. If it were, I'd left this futile discussion long ago.

That's simple, they are completely different. If you started counting right now by the time you die the number you were at wouldn't be anywhere near the size of universe. Yet I can read the bible in a week or so.

Again, my point proven yet again.

You CAN hold the Bible in your hands, i.e. tangible. You CAN'T hold an alien in your hand, i.e. NOT tangible. Yet you believe the NON-tangible over the other because what????? There is NO proof Jesus ever existed in YOUR mind but of something that has never been seen in the entire history of the world....THAT you have an "open" mind about and BELIEVE exists?????

Got it. That makes complete sense.

[4dmin]

Again, it's simply ironic that you guys hold that much hope for something that is far LESS likely to EVER be "proven", yet yall trip all over yourselves to try and "prove" the Bible is wrong.

Let me ask you a question: Do you believe in miracles or do you believe in chance?

How can you say that aliens are less likely to be proven when we are still in baby steps of science... lets take all who have ever been in space, how many is that under 200 people? now lets take the millions of followers in christianity over the 1000's of years of exsistance, and your trying to say aliens are less likely to be proven - nice try

and no there are no such things as miracles, i'll tell you why, if i put a gun to your head and you prayed for a miracle not to die, either A) trigger is pulled and bullet enters your body and your dead or B) gun mis fires and its a miracle... Wanna test it?

You CAN hold the Bible in your hands, i.e. tangible. You CAN'T hold an alien in your hand, i.e. NOT tangible. Yet you believe the NON-tangible over the other because what????? There is NO proof Jesus ever existed in YOUR mind but of something that has never been seen in the entire history of the world....THAT you have an "open" mind about and BELIEVE exists?????

if i sent you to the christian book store and told you to buy a bible you could choose from 100s... there are books/stories older than the bible but i don't hold them to be tangible proof. I guess if we did it there way you think any book can be tangible proof. Hey i got a bunch of books on polythesism i guess Zeus is real then.

[Jaimecbr900]

How can you say that aliens are less likely to be proven when we are still in baby steps of science... lets take all who have ever been in space, how many is that under 200 people? now lets take the millions of followers in christianity over the 1000's of years of exsistance, and your trying to say aliens are less likely to be proven - nice try

That's where you're wrong.

If you are a "follower", then you believe. Right? So therefore just like me, they have NO doubts about their faith. So to those millions of people it HAS been PROVEN to their satisfaction that Jesus lived. So I don't follow what you are trying to say by saying that 200 vs millions shows ANY proof to your satisfaction that Aliens exist. It would seem to me that it would show the exact opposite. Millions of people CONVINCED that Jesus lived vs much less that believe Aliens exist. I don't follow what the numbers of believers has to do with believing Aliens exist.

and no there are no such things as miracles, i'll tell you why, if i put a gun to your head and you prayed for a miracle not to die, either A) trigger is pulled and bullet enters your body and your dead or B) gun mis fires and its a miracle... Wanna test it?

You need to read your Bible in order to understand what a true miracle is.

A miracle is not something you merely ask for and poof you get it. A miracle is something that happens that defies logic yet it happens, but the key is that it that God is the one who decides WHEN and to WHOM it's going to happen. He is in control because he is the only one that KNOWS what your plan in life is.

Therefore, if it is HIS will that the gun you point at my head misfires to prove a point to YOU, then it will happen. If it is his will that I die, then it will not misfire.

if i sent you to the christian book store and told you to buy a bible you could choose from 100s...

And 99% of them say the exact same thing, except maybe in different languages, or having clarifications in the margins, or certain things highlighted, but the main thing is that the content remains the SAME.

My Grandmother is a Jehova's Witness. Her Bible has almost the same identical text as my Bible. I'm Methodist. The difference is NOT in the the words printed on the pages, it's in what we believe. She believes something totally different than I do. That is where Religions differ. She is not a Christian, but yet believes that Christ was here. Go figure.

there are books/stories older than the bible but i don't hold them to be tangible proof.

Yes you do. You believe the history books about Constantine the Great don't you? Yet, there isn't a single fossil or picture of him is there? You are merely believing what some "human" wrote about him and it eventually took form of a history book, right? Why is it that Constantine ruled in the same time period as when the first books of the Bible were written, yet HIS history is to be believed while the Bible is to be questioned merely for being as old and passed down thru the centuries in the exact same way HISTORY is??????

I guess if we did it there way you think any book can be tangible proof. Hey i got a bunch of books on polythesism i guess Zeus is real then.

No. The way I think is that people have a choice of what to believe and what not to believe. We are all given that choice. If after hearing about Christianity you CHOOSE not to believe, that is your choice. If after hearing about Zeus I CHOOSE not to believe it, that's also a choice I can make. The key is that you have to live and die by the choices you make in life. I choose to put my faith with Jesus as opposed to Zeus. If I make the wrong choice, I will pay for that wrong choice. So will everyone single person pay or benefit for their own personal choices. That's just the way it is. You either believe or don't believe in something. There is no gray area. I don't see how that's even possible. By choosing one you are automatically choosing NOT to be a part of the other, so there really is no gray area.

People would like to believe that riding the fence on this issue is the safest bet, but in reality if you don't profess to believe something you really don't believe it and therefore are part of one side of the fence by default.

[AWD OWNZ U]

You just made my point abundantly clear. Even though the "odds" are infinitely stacked against you or anyone else EVER PROVING that there is ANY other life forms out there, YALL STILL BELIEVE THERE IS. Yet in the very next breath you chastise people like myself that believe in something far more LIKELY, even by your own admissions, like God and Jesus.

That's what I've been saying all along, but yall want to fight me tooth and nail about it. Is that reasoning not tangible enough for you?

I think you are getting a bit confused here. The odds of there being life besides us in the Universe and the odds of us finding it are not the same thing. Even if we never find it before humankind goes extinct that does not prove it doesn't exist. Like I said before lack of proof is not proof of it's opposite. I don't not believe in God because there is no proof, I don't believe in God because it makes no sense. It's possible that a christian God exists just not probable.

Again, no tangible proof for non-believers like yourself. As I explained clearly already several times, BELIEVERS got to be BELIEVERS because they got ALL the "proof" they needed to BELIEVE. YOU on the other hand need a signed note from God himself, Jesus' femur bone fossilized on the side of mountain, and an Angel to deliver it all in order to "believe".

You can believe in anything, that doesn't make it true. Believing in something that can never be proven and, to me at least, doesn't make sense is foolish. If you have some type of divine faith then good for you but don't try to chastize the rest of us for thinking through things before we submit to them.

BTW, you forgot to consider ancient astronomers, and even millions of ancient people that worshiped everything from the Sun to the Stars too. So it's not merely a "handful of people looking part time" as you say. There are many thousands, if not hundreds of thousands, of people from scientists that dedicate their lives to finding life outside our solar system to the amateur with a fancy high power telescope to ancient people that have been gazing up at the stars for eons now. They've seen comets, asteroids, pulsars, black holes, and even rings on planets, but yet no forms of life.

Ancient astronomers had no chance of finding extraterrestrials. Only people with advanced equipment have even the minute possibilty. So really it has only been a handful of people.

Let me ask you a question: Do you believe in miracles or do you believe in chance?

I don't believe in miracles and I suppose it depends on your definition of chance.

Again, my point proven yet again.

You CAN hold the Bible in your hands, i.e. tangible. You CAN'T hold an alien in your hand, i.e. NOT tangible. Yet you believe the NON-tangible over the other because what????? There is NO proof Jesus ever existed in YOUR mind but of something that has never been seen in the entire history of the world....THAT you have an "open" mind about and BELIEVE exists?????

Got it. That makes complete sense.

No one is arguing that the Bible doesn't exist. I can hold a telescope in my hand is that tangible enough for you? I can even prove the telescope works.

[Jaimecbr900]

I think you are getting a bit confused here. The odds of there being life besides us in the Universe and the odds of us finding it are not the same thing. Even if we never find it before humankind goes extinct that does not prove it doesn't exist. Like I said before lack of proof is not proof of it's opposite. I don't not believe in God because there is no proof, I don't believe in God because it makes no sense. It's possible that a christian God exists just not probable.

I'm crystal clear on this actually. You on the other hand are double talking.

"Even if we never find it...it doesn't prove it doesn't exist", "lack of proof is not proof of it's opposite", "I don't believe in God because it makes no sense".....you say all that only to finish the very same paragraph with...."It's possible that a Christian God exists, just not probable"....?????

You are full of double talk there. Again, I guess you think that riding the fence is the safest bet to make. Make whatever choices make you sleep better at night. You still didn't say a darn thing in that paragraph because you contradicted yourself over and over again. Just double talk.

You can believe in anything, that doesn't make it true.

It does for me, and that's all that matters. If you don't want to believe something, you simply don't. That's your choice.

Believing in something that can never be proven and, to me at least, doesn't make sense is foolish.

Again, double talk.

Just a few sentences earlier you were telling me that we will probably NEVER "prove" other life forms exist in the universe and I quote, "before human kind goes extinct", yet YOU STILL believe it exists. Explain to me how "not finding it before human kind goes extinct" PROVES anything to you.

So even you admit that's foolish, huh?

Double talk.

If you have some type of divine faith then good for you but don't try to chastize the rest of us for thinking through things before we submit to them.

I have not chastized a single person that didn't chastize me first. I've made a very conscious effort to not take the pulpit and rain down fire and brimstone about faith because I think that is counter productive.

I'm also not going to stand here and ride the fence about something I'm clear about either.

Only people with advanced equipment have even the minute possibilty. So really it has only been a handful of people.

Which we have now, right?

There are also far more than a "handful of people" working at just the Arecibo Observatory. Here you go, just at a quick glance of the directory I'd say there are atleast 50 FULL TIME scientists, engineers, and computer techs working at just that observatory:
http://www.naic.edu/directory/staffdir_set.htm

To further illustrate this, why don't you read this about SETI (which stands for Search for Extraterrestrial Intelligence)?:

http://www.space.com/searchforlife/o...ke_000407.html

Here is also a rather long list of other radio telescope sights from around the world. Again, proof positive that there are far more than merele a "handful" of people peering up at the skies trying to find aliens:

http://www.r-clarke.org.uk/astrolinks_radio.htm

Again, this is merely for radio telescopes. There are far more optical telescope sites and observatories than radio telescopes. Would you like a few links to those places?

So do you still stand by the notion that only a "handful" of people are looking for your aliens still?????

I don't believe in miracles and I suppose it depends on your definition of chance.

Paul started another thread about this very subject, so I'll defer to that thread for this discussion.

No one is arguing that the Bible doesn't exist. I can hold a telescope in my hand is that tangible enough for you? I can even prove the telescope works.

What's that got to do with the price of tea in China???? :confused:

The mere existance of a Bible is sometimes tangible proof that Jesus existed. I emphasize sometimes because to some people like you guys that's not enough. I understand that and respect that, hence this discussion's entire reason for going in many directions. But the fact that you guys are questioning the validity of it's contents by using such conclusions as "Jesus' body has never been recovered" or "they don't mention Jesus in Roman history" leads me to believe that you guys are wanting tangible proof to make up your mind. The Bible is one of only many tangible proofs I can offer. It's obvious that you guys don't want to accept that, and I'm OK with that. I'm no Bible scholar. I don't own a business whose only purpose is to convert non-believers. So, I can only do what I think is right, and I don't take it personal that you guys don't believe me. I can only explain it the way I understand it and believe it. Neither one of you guys HAVE to believe any of it. That is not going to be a reflection on me because I can lead you to water but I can't make you drink.

[AWD OWNZ U]

I'm crystal clear on this actually. You on the other hand are double talking.

"Even if we never find it...it doesn't prove it doesn't exist", "lack of proof is not proof of it's opposite", "I don't believe in God because it makes no sense".....you say all that only to finish the very same paragraph with...."It's possible that a Christian God exists, just not probable"....?????

You are full of double talk there. Again, I guess you think that riding the fence is the safest bet to make. Make whatever choices make you sleep better at night. You still didn't say a darn thing in that paragraph because you contradicted yourself over and over again. Just double talk.

Um, no. Everything falls in order there is no double talk. Your point is that there is no life in universe because we haven't found any. Hence the lack of proof is not proof of it's opposite. Your reasoning is flawed. I think there is probably life in the universe because scientific probability of it is great. Then you say I'm double talking because I don't believe in God because there is no proof of his existance. I'm telling you that's not that case. I don't believe in God because the entire concept makes no sense logically it has nothing to do with lack of proof.

It does for me, and that's all that matters. If you don't want to believe something, you simply don't. That's your choice.

You can't be serious? Can you believe I have an STi? Because I'd sure like one.

Again, double talk.

Just a few sentences earlier you were telling me that we will probably NEVER "prove" other life forms exist in the universe and I quote, "before human kind goes extinct", yet YOU STILL believe it exists. Explain to me how "not finding it before human kind goes extinct" PROVES anything to you.

So even you admit that's foolish, huh?

Double talk.

Don't put words in mouth. I said the odds of us finding life by this point in time were poor and that IF we never find life that doesn't prove it doesn't exist. Technology continues to advance and we continue to expand our borders in space. I would be surprised if we never ran across at least primitve life.

Which we have now, right?

There are also far more than a "handful of people" working at just the Arecibo Observatory. Here you go, just at a quick glance of the directory I'd say there are atleast 50 FULL TIME scientists, engineers, and computer techs working at just that observatory:
http://www.naic.edu/directory/staffdir_set.htm

To further illustrate this, why don't you read this about SETI (which stands for Search for Extraterrestrial Intelligence)?:

http://www.space.com/searchforlife/o...ke_000407.html

Here is also a rather long list of other radio telescope sights from around the world. Again, proof positive that there are far more than merele a "handful" of people peering up at the skies trying to find aliens:

http://www.r-clarke.org.uk/astrolinks_radio.htm

Again, this is merely for radio telescopes. There are far more optical telescope sites and observatories than radio telescopes. Would you like a few links to those places?

So do you still stand by the notion that only a "handful" of people are looking for your aliens still?????

Handful in scale to the amount of people on the planet. The first link you posted doesn't even have anything to do with finding life. Not all radio telescopes are used for that you know.

The mere existance of a Bible is sometimes tangible proof that Jesus existed. I emphasize sometimes because to some people like you guys that's not enough. I understand that and respect that, hence this discussion's entire reason for going in many directions. But the fact that you guys are questioning the validity of it's contents by using such conclusions as "Jesus' body has never been recovered" or "they don't mention Jesus in Roman history" leads me to believe that you guys are wanting tangible proof to make up your mind. The Bible is one of only many tangible proofs I can offer. It's obvious that you guys don't want to accept that, and I'm OK with that. I'm no Bible scholar. I don't own a business whose only purpose is to convert non-believers. So, I can only do what I think is right, and I don't take it personal that you guys don't believe me. I can only explain it the way I understand it and believe it. Neither one of you guys HAVE to believe any of it. That is not going to be a reflection on me because I can lead you to water but I can't make you drink.

I did not use any of those examples. I took a class on Jesus and bible in college. I've read through the so called historical evidence and there is some. In fact I'd say that Jesus was a person, the evidence against it is marginal at best and the evidence for it vaguely reasonable. There is alot however about his divinity that makes one take pause. Not really a discussion for this thread though.

[Jaimecbr900]

Um, no. Everything falls in order there is no double talk. Your point is that there is no life in universe because we haven't found any. Hence the lack of proof is not proof of it's opposite.

You did plenty of double talking.

Exhibit A is the last sentence in the quote above. How does "...lack of proof is not proof of the opposite.." NOT double talk? It says absolutely nothing. It contradicts itself. The only subject matter in which lack of proof doesn't automatically disprove anything is FAITH. Are you saying you have FAITH there are E.T.'s out there? If so, then I can't argue with that. If you are not, then you are simply double talking.

That's like when you're parents told you when you were young to "do as I SAY not as I DO". We as adults now know that was merely double talk to get us to do what they wanted us to.

Now you are trying to get thru using the same logic. "Lack of proof is not proof of the opposite". Find one thing, beside Faith, that by definition does NOT require proof to be believed. ONE.

I don't believe in God because the entire concept makes no sense logically it has nothing to do with lack of proof.

Once again you are trying to do the same thing Paul is. Trying to explain the existance of God using logic is like trying to fit a round peg in a square hole, it can be done but you'd have to bang the crap out of it to do so.

Look up the definition of Faith. Nowhere in that definition does it say anything about LOGIC. It actually says that it something that defies logic. Therefore, how in the world are you ever going to find any faith using logic??? That's like trying to put a fire out with gasoline. Won't work, right? Why? Because it just won't because of what gas is and what fire is. It just IS.

Faith is believing in something withOUT the use of logic. So how in this world are you gonna EVER find it using LOGIC?????? That's an oxymoron.

You can't be serious? Can you believe I have an STi? Because I'd sure like one.

You missed it all together.

I do in fact believe in Jesus and therefore it makes it TRUE for ME. If you don't believe, then it won't be true for YOU. So, all that matters is that I believe it for MYSELF. I don't have to have YOU believe it TOO or FOR me. I simply have to believe for myself for it to be TRUE for ME, therefore MY belief is the only one that matters for ME. Get it now?

Don't put words in mouth. I said the odds of us finding life by this point in time were poor and that IF we never find life that doesn't prove it doesn't exist.

Again, double talk.

Like I said before, do some research. Find ONE example of something that by DEFINITION does NOT require proof to believe it, besides FAITH, and you have a point. Until then, it's double talk.

You say in one sentence that proof may never be found, yet in the next you say that doesn't "prove" anything.... Yes it most certainly does.

Handful in scale to the amount of people on the planet. The first link you posted doesn't even have anything to do with finding life. Not all radio telescopes are used for that you know.

Really??? Go back and see what that is the directory of staff members FOR. It is for the Arecibo Observatory, the same world's largest radio telescope we've been talking about all along. I also included an article about SETI in which it describes USING that very same observatory since 1963 for the search of E.T.'s. So if that's not people in that observatory LOOKING for "life", I don't know what is.

I've read through the so called historical evidence and there is some. In fact I'd say that Jesus was a person, the evidence against it is marginal at best and the evidence for it vaguely reasonable. There is alot however about his divinity that makes one take pause. Not really a discussion for this thread though.

I can respect that. As a matter of fact there are several mainstream religions that believe exactly what you suspect, that Jesus was a man/prophet but NOT the son of God and NOT the saviour. That atleast is a belief. If it's right or wrong is definetly not for me to judge. That is a personal choice. I don't have any issues with anyone that thinks like that. I do however have issues with someone that doesn't believe there is a God or even no Jesus at all.

[AWD OWNZ U]

You did plenty of double talking.

Exhibit A is the last sentence in the quote above. How does "...lack of proof is not proof of the opposite.." NOT double talk? It says absolutely nothing. It contradicts itself. The only subject matter in which lack of proof doesn't automatically disprove anything is FAITH. Are you saying you have FAITH there are E.T.'s out there? If so, then I can't argue with that. If you are not, then you are simply double talking.

That's like when you're parents told you when you were young to "do as I SAY not as I DO". We as adults now know that was merely double talk to get us to do what they wanted us to.

Now you are trying to get thru using the same logic. "Lack of proof is not proof of the opposite". Find one thing, beside Faith, that by definition does NOT require proof to be believed. ONE.

http://www.intrepidsoftware.com/fallacy/ig.php

Maybe that will explain it better than I can. I'm tired man so I'm not that eloquent. I took a logic class with that Jesus class.

Look up the definition of Faith. Nowhere in that definition does it say anything about LOGIC. It actually says that it something that defies logic. Therefore, how in the world are you ever going to find any faith using logic??? That's like trying to put a fire out with gasoline. Won't work, right? Why? Because it just won't because of what gas is and what fire is. It just IS.

Faith is believing in something withOUT the use of logic. So how in this world are you gonna EVER find it using LOGIC?????? That's an oxymoron.

I guess the bottom line is I don't believe in faith. (it's validity obviously it exists)

You missed it all together.

I do in fact believe in Jesus and therefore it makes it TRUE for ME. If you don't believe, then it won't be true for YOU. So, all that matters is that I believe it for MYSELF. I don't have to have YOU believe it TOO or FOR me. I simply have to believe for myself for it to be TRUE for ME, therefore MY belief is the only one that matters for ME. Get it now?

Truth is absolute, you cannot have a different truth than I do.

Again, double talk.

Like I said before, do some research. Find ONE example of something that by DEFINITION does NOT require proof to believe it, besides FAITH, and you have a point. Until then, it's double talk.

You say in one sentence that proof may never be found, yet in the next you say that doesn't "prove" anything.... Yes it most certainly does.

No it most certainly does not. Back in the day everyone thought the earth was flat and no one was capable of proving it round. Was it flat then? Did the lack of proof make it less round? Of course not.

Really??? Go back and see what that is the directory of staff members FOR. It is for the Arecibo Observatory, the same world's largest radio telescope we've been talking about all along. I also included an article about SETI in which it describes USING that very same observatory since 1963 for the search of E.T.'s. So if that's not people in that observatory LOOKING for "life", I don't know what is.

I read their own page about what they do, it says nothing about searching for life. Maybe they use some of their equipment part time, but certainly not the whole facility all the time. Not that it really makes a difference.

I can respect that. As a matter of fact there are several mainstream religions that believe exactly what you suspect, that Jesus was a man/prophet but NOT the son of God and NOT the saviour. That atleast is a belief. If it's right or wrong is definetly not for me to judge. That is a personal choice. I don't have any issues with anyone that thinks like that. I do however have issues with someone that doesn't believe there is a God or even no Jesus at all.

I don't believe in God, sorry. Well at least not the Christian notion of one.

[Hulud]

it completely foolish to think we are alone

[Jaimecbr900]

http://www.intrepidsoftware.com/fallacy/ig.php

Maybe that will explain it better than I can. I'm tired man so I'm not that eloquent. I took a logic class with that Jesus class.

That link is as much double talking as you were. No different.

You are simply not going to prove your case by not saying anything of substance. Much like A.D.D. it's all in what you want to believe. If you believe that double talk, believe it. I don't. It's that simple.

Not one of the non-believers have yet to answer my question directly:

WHY is it that you can hold faith out for aliens w/ no tangible proof in sight, yet dismiss Christianity due to lack of proof????? That is the biggest oxymoron in the world. Why won't anyone of you guys answer that question directly?

I guess the bottom line is I don't believe in faith. (it's validity obviously it exists)

Yes you do, you just don't want to admit it.

You believe in E.T.'s w/o logical proof. That, by definition, is FAITH. Look it up in the dictionary.

Truth is absolute, you cannot have a different truth than I do.

OK, Yoda. :jerkit:

What are you my mother now? I believe what I WANT to believe just as you do. I believe that Jesus Christ not only existed but is my saviour. THAT is TRUE to ME. YOU can't do a thing about that. YOU can choose to believe the same thing and then it becomes a truth to YOU. If you don't choose to believe it, it may not be true to YOU, but it doesn't change a thing for ME.

I don't understand how that's so hard to understand. You want to re-invent the wheel with all these Zen master sayings and it is simply conjecture. YOU think that because you SAY something it suddenly becomes gospel. That's simply not true. How in the world could you sit there and crassly tell ME what I KNOW to be MY "truth" HAS TO match what you think or it isn't "true"?????

I read their own page about what they do, it says nothing about searching for life. Maybe they use some of their equipment part time, but certainly not the whole facility all the time. Not that it really makes a difference.

Whatever. Again, another example of not seeing the forest for the trees. The only reason why you wouldn't see it is because you didn't want to.

It clearly says in plain English that SETI has had a home base at the Arecibo Observatory since 1963. It also says that although they don't get to use it around the clock, they are building a permanent unit in Cali that they will have the permanent use of.

I guess that this is also NOT an extended full time search for E.T.'s out there either, huh?:
http://www.bigear.org/guinness.htm

I guess in the UK, they also are NOT looking for E.T.'s using their telescopes either, huh?
http://www.jb.man.ac.uk/research/seti/

Australia isn't looking either:
http://seti.uws.edu.au/

http://seti.uws.edu.au/SETI%20Pages/...20SERENDIP.htm

I suppose Italy is not looking FULL TIME either:

http://www.seti-italia.cnr.it/Premessa/Premise.htm


I could do this all day. Had enough yet?

I don't believe in God, sorry. Well at least not the Christian notion of one.

That is your cross to bear. Pun intended.

[Jaimecbr900]

it completely foolish to think we are alone

You need to read the first 4 pages of this thread.

We're WAY beyond that.....

[Ncturnal]

You need to read the first 4 pages of this thread.

We're WAY beyond that.....

Some of us are beyond it, but some haven't quite grasped reality yet. **cough**Jaime**cough**

[ahmonrah]

The Bible. In it is says that we were created in his likeness, so unless WE are aliens it can't be.

LIKENESS doesnt mean EXACTNESS, so whos to say that we were'nt created to be LIKE the creator, but tailored for this environment??

[ahmonrah]

.....Scientists have yet to find any forms of real life anywhere in outer space at all. The most powerful radio telescope in the entire known universe is in Puerto Rico and it is said to be able to "see" into far far outerspace. How come in the 40+ years that it has been in existance and one of it's functions IS in fact to search for extraterrestrial existance the observatory has found NONE at all????? That telescope is strong enough to do it, then why hasn't it found any?......

who's to say that life on another planet has not been found... but we have not been told so to keep some sort of order in the world. there are plenty of things that are terrestrial issues that have occured in other parts of the world (and if this country), but for the sake of "national security" the public has been denied information that maybe important to us and our well being.

one one program on discovery i watched some time ago posed a question to a scientist. they asked if they discovered an asteroid heading our way one year away, on a collision course, would they inform the public. he said no because doing so would cause panic and chaos and people would no longer adhere to laws and disorder would reign(those werent his exact words but that was exactly what he was saying.)

[metalman]

Do you believe we are alone in this Universe??? What is your take, life exsisting on other planets, galaxys, & planes would defiantely throw a wrench to the bible and everything many have grown up to beleive. I did hear on the last space expedition to Mars they confirmed water molecules in rocks/salt which would say there is single cell organisms. That is the most basic form of life but it is life none the less.

Short answer - NO.

Actually the Bible speaks of the "Worlds" (plural) saying God created the worlds, so there would in fact be no "wrench thrown" to the Bible.

A better question might be...Do you think an Almighty, All Knowing Creator, who "is without beginning or end" would only have one measley little creation project?? (known as Earth)

I highly doubt it moreover the Bible suggests otherwise.

[98Impreza234]

I think there are there is to much space for us to be the only race in the Universe.

[{X}Echo419]

Do you believe we are alone in this Universe??? What is your take, life exsisting on other planets, galaxys, & planes would defiantely throw a wrench to the bible and everything many have grown up to beleive

how is that? was God supposed to go tell Moses, "Hey, btw tell everyone that there are Super intelligent alien beings out in the universe capable of things that your minds could never comprehend. Not that they would "get" aliens."....


didn't thinks so

[TIGERJC]

Some of us are beyond it, but some haven't quite grasped reality yet. **cough**Jaime**cough**

thats my boy

[Z32redondo]

Limited? The radio telescope in Puerto Rico can "hear" farther than any telescope can "see" and it scans millions of frequencies in the entire spectrum constantly. Unless aliens speak and live via ESP, that radio scope would've picked it up. It is one of it's functions to be on a constant listen for ANY type of communication or sound of ANY extraterrestrial life, and in the last 40+ years it's found....Hmmmmm.......NONE.

Just a thought here but if that telescope can hear or what ever and hasnt heard anything, then wouldnt that in fact mean that it dosent work.....Just considering the amount of astronauts we have had walk the moon. I beleive that they had radio's...........But then again...Just a thought....

[ahmonrah]

in a nutshell, the possibility for life less, equally and more advanced than our own is great. considering there are more planets and stars than we have grains of sand on out beaches worldwide.

[Z32redondo]

in a nutshell, the possibility for life less, equally and more advanced than our own is great. considering there are more planets and stars than we have grains of sand on out beaches worldwide.

^^^^^^Word^^^^^^

[Stormhammer]

you want to talk biblically - in essence it says God created the Earth and the Heavens ( referring to space here ) - and that right there it kinda obscure, leaving open the VERY good possibility of life existing otherwise. I mean, do you see other planets being named in there? Nope, so why would the Bible mention it in the creation etc etc


but me personally? Yeah, I do believe life does exist out there, but as Albert Einstein put it

" To think that we're not alone in this universe is simply amazing.
But to also think that we are along in the universe is equally as shattering."

anywho, if we're the only life existing planet, then thats lame

and its a whole lot of fucking wasted space ( lolz )

[{X}Echo419]

it's like this; have you ever been the "only" person in Wal-Mart? No, of course not. So what makes you think we could be the only 1's in the Universe?

[atlxlaoxboi]

we are not alone..........oh oh....lolz

[ahmonrah]

it's like this; have you ever been the "only" person in Wal-Mart? No, of course not. So what makes you think we could be the only 1's in the Universe?

LIRL!!!

[{X}Echo419]

LIRL!!!

thanks
how's bout some +1?

[Jaimecbr900]

The truly ironic thing is how everyone that whole heartedly believes in E.T.'s ONLY real argument to the very existance of something that has NEVER been found in the entire history of earth is......yall ready...."POSSIBILITY (IES)" yet crazy bible thumping zealouts (as I've been called ) are just off our rockers for believing in a "GOD".......

Let's get this straight:

God=no "possibility" in some of yall's eyes.....because?????.....no tangible "proof"......right?

Aliens=perfectly logical and plausible......yet there has NEVER been "proof" found in the entire history of earth EVEN WITH sophisticated 21st Century EQUIPMENT looking FOR that proof for a LOOOONNNNGGGG time.......


Irony so thick you can cut it with a knife.

[quickdodge®]

I agree with you, Jaime. There is no tangible proof. At least that we know of. I know it's not certain, verify-able proof, but there are countless photos of supposed UFOs. Also, we'll never know what NASA has hidden away, you know. There is no "photo" of God or anything of the sort. I'm not using that to try and disprove God. Just mentioning that in relation to your statement about believing in ETs and not God. But, again. I do agree with your analogy. BTW, I still find it hard to believe that we would be the only existing beings in the whole of everything. Later, QD.

[Jaimecbr900]

I agree with you, Jaime. There is no tangible proof. At least that we know of. I know it's not certain, verify-able proof, but there are countless photos of supposed UFOs. Also, we'll never know what NASA has hidden away, you know. There is no "photo" of God or anything of the sort. I'm not using that to try and disprove God. Just mentioning that in relation to your statement about believing in ETs and not God. But, again. I do agree with your analogy. BTW, I still find it hard to believe that we would be the only existing beings in the whole of everything. Later, QD.

And to be honest, I wouldn't die of a heart attack should a UFO crash in a desert somewhere tomorrow.

I currently don't see how after years of actually LOOKING FOR aliens we've never found any, BUT that doesn't necessarily mean that I'd be devastated if an alien fell out of the sky.

My whole contention in this discussion has been more about why it is that some of the same people that have debated vigorously with me in the past about the lack of existence of "GOD" are the very ones that whole heartedly believe in aliens yet there is no "proof" of that either. I didn't intend for this to become another "belief vs non-belief" debates, but obviously I've had to defend this idea in the course of this discussion.

In other words, how come someone can "imagine" an alien, yet not be able to "imagine" the existance of "God"? Vivid imagination for one thing, but not another? There's no "proof" of aliens that they are aware of, so how come they can "believe" w/o proof on that, but to believe in "God" they need a ton of "proof"???? THAT is what doesn't make any common sense to me.