Do you believe we are alone in this Universe???

[AWD OWNZ U]

Kinda like the odds of "them" being there since there hasn't been a peep heard or seen in the entire history of the world.

No actually not at all. I don't think you quite grasp the situation to be honest. Let's say you are standing in the middle of downtown ATL. I give you a pair of binoculars and ask you to find a polar bear. Would you be able to find it? Even if you look for 40 years? Now imagine the earth is thousands of times larger and the polar bear thousands of times smaller. That's probably too optimistic of a scale to be honest.

Again, what's ironic is that although everyone here trying to convince others that life exists somewhere out there in that "infinite vast space" we know soooo little about even by all yall's admission, THAT to you guys is far more possible than the BIBLE.....

We've had hundreds of thousands of people for thousands of years dedicate there lives to finding God and they have come up with no tangible proof. We've had a handful of people look part time for maybe 30-40 years for aliens with the same result. Believing in which one seems more foolish with your logic?

Yall fall over yourself to try and convince someone that something exists although it's NEVER been seen or heard from, yet act like people that believe someone of flesh and blood that existed 2000 years ago are just plum crazy........yall believe life exists based on FAITH and yet having the same FAITH in something that has tangible proof in WRITTEN HISTORY is NOT possible???.

I'm not trying to convince you that anything exists. Just that closing your mind to the possibilty is foolish.

How can you anyone say in one breath that our "minds can't imagine" the vastness of space, yet in the next breath question the Bible using that same and self admitted limited mind??????

That's simple, they are completely different. If you started counting right now by the time you die the number you were at wouldn't be anywhere near the size of universe. Yet I can read the bible in a week or so.

[Jaimecbr900]

No actually not at all. I don't think you quite grasp the situation to be honest. Let's say you are standing in the middle of downtown ATL. I give you a pair of binoculars and ask you to find a polar bear. Would you be able to find it? Even if you look for 40 years? Now imagine the earth is thousands of times larger and the polar bear thousands of times smaller. That's probably too optimistic of a scale to be honest.

You just made my point abundantly clear. Even though the "odds" are infinitely stacked against you or anyone else EVER PROVING that there is ANY other life forms out there, YALL STILL BELIEVE THERE IS. Yet in the very next breath you chastise people like myself that believe in something far more LIKELY, even by your own admissions, like God and Jesus.

That's what I've been saying all along, but yall want to fight me tooth and nail about it. Is that reasoning not tangible enough for you?

We've had hundreds of thousands of people for thousands of years dedicate there lives to finding God and they have come up with no tangible proof. We've had a handful of people look part time for maybe 30-40 years for aliens with the same result. Believing in which one seems more foolish with your logic?

Again, no tangible proof for non-believers like yourself. As I explained clearly already several times, BELIEVERS got to be BELIEVERS because they got ALL the "proof" they needed to BELIEVE. YOU on the other hand need a signed note from God himself, Jesus' femur bone fossilized on the side of mountain, and an Angel to deliver it all in order to "believe".

BTW, you forgot to consider ancient astronomers, and even millions of ancient people that worshiped everything from the Sun to the Stars too. So it's not merely a "handful of people looking part time" as you say. There are many thousands, if not hundreds of thousands, of people from scientists that dedicate their lives to finding life outside our solar system to the amateur with a fancy high power telescope to ancient people that have been gazing up at the stars for eons now. They've seen comets, asteroids, pulsars, black holes, and even rings on planets, but yet no forms of life.

Again, it's simply ironic that you guys hold that much hope for something that is far LESS likely to EVER be "proven", yet yall trip all over yourselves to try and "prove" the Bible is wrong.

Let me ask you a question: Do you believe in miracles or do you believe in chance?

I'm not trying to convince you that anything exists. Just that closing your mind to the possibilty is foolish.

My mind is far from closed. If it were, I'd left this futile discussion long ago.

That's simple, they are completely different. If you started counting right now by the time you die the number you were at wouldn't be anywhere near the size of universe. Yet I can read the bible in a week or so.

Again, my point proven yet again.

You CAN hold the Bible in your hands, i.e. tangible. You CAN'T hold an alien in your hand, i.e. NOT tangible. Yet you believe the NON-tangible over the other because what????? There is NO proof Jesus ever existed in YOUR mind but of something that has never been seen in the entire history of the world....THAT you have an "open" mind about and BELIEVE exists?????

Got it. That makes complete sense.

[AWD OWNZ U]

You just made my point abundantly clear. Even though the "odds" are infinitely stacked against you or anyone else EVER PROVING that there is ANY other life forms out there, YALL STILL BELIEVE THERE IS. Yet in the very next breath you chastise people like myself that believe in something far more LIKELY, even by your own admissions, like God and Jesus.

That's what I've been saying all along, but yall want to fight me tooth and nail about it. Is that reasoning not tangible enough for you?

I think you are getting a bit confused here. The odds of there being life besides us in the Universe and the odds of us finding it are not the same thing. Even if we never find it before humankind goes extinct that does not prove it doesn't exist. Like I said before lack of proof is not proof of it's opposite. I don't not believe in God because there is no proof, I don't believe in God because it makes no sense. It's possible that a christian God exists just not probable.

Again, no tangible proof for non-believers like yourself. As I explained clearly already several times, BELIEVERS got to be BELIEVERS because they got ALL the "proof" they needed to BELIEVE. YOU on the other hand need a signed note from God himself, Jesus' femur bone fossilized on the side of mountain, and an Angel to deliver it all in order to "believe".

You can believe in anything, that doesn't make it true. Believing in something that can never be proven and, to me at least, doesn't make sense is foolish. If you have some type of divine faith then good for you but don't try to chastize the rest of us for thinking through things before we submit to them.

BTW, you forgot to consider ancient astronomers, and even millions of ancient people that worshiped everything from the Sun to the Stars too. So it's not merely a "handful of people looking part time" as you say. There are many thousands, if not hundreds of thousands, of people from scientists that dedicate their lives to finding life outside our solar system to the amateur with a fancy high power telescope to ancient people that have been gazing up at the stars for eons now. They've seen comets, asteroids, pulsars, black holes, and even rings on planets, but yet no forms of life.

Ancient astronomers had no chance of finding extraterrestrials. Only people with advanced equipment have even the minute possibilty. So really it has only been a handful of people.

Let me ask you a question: Do you believe in miracles or do you believe in chance?

I don't believe in miracles and I suppose it depends on your definition of chance.

Again, my point proven yet again.

You CAN hold the Bible in your hands, i.e. tangible. You CAN'T hold an alien in your hand, i.e. NOT tangible. Yet you believe the NON-tangible over the other because what????? There is NO proof Jesus ever existed in YOUR mind but of something that has never been seen in the entire history of the world....THAT you have an "open" mind about and BELIEVE exists?????

Got it. That makes complete sense.

No one is arguing that the Bible doesn't exist. I can hold a telescope in my hand is that tangible enough for you? I can even prove the telescope works.

[Jaimecbr900]

I think you are getting a bit confused here. The odds of there being life besides us in the Universe and the odds of us finding it are not the same thing. Even if we never find it before humankind goes extinct that does not prove it doesn't exist. Like I said before lack of proof is not proof of it's opposite. I don't not believe in God because there is no proof, I don't believe in God because it makes no sense. It's possible that a christian God exists just not probable.

I'm crystal clear on this actually. You on the other hand are double talking.

"Even if we never find it...it doesn't prove it doesn't exist", "lack of proof is not proof of it's opposite", "I don't believe in God because it makes no sense".....you say all that only to finish the very same paragraph with...."It's possible that a Christian God exists, just not probable"....?????

You are full of double talk there. Again, I guess you think that riding the fence is the safest bet to make. Make whatever choices make you sleep better at night. You still didn't say a darn thing in that paragraph because you contradicted yourself over and over again. Just double talk.

You can believe in anything, that doesn't make it true.

It does for me, and that's all that matters. If you don't want to believe something, you simply don't. That's your choice.

Believing in something that can never be proven and, to me at least, doesn't make sense is foolish.

Again, double talk.

Just a few sentences earlier you were telling me that we will probably NEVER "prove" other life forms exist in the universe and I quote, "before human kind goes extinct", yet YOU STILL believe it exists. Explain to me how "not finding it before human kind goes extinct" PROVES anything to you.

So even you admit that's foolish, huh?

Double talk.

If you have some type of divine faith then good for you but don't try to chastize the rest of us for thinking through things before we submit to them.

I have not chastized a single person that didn't chastize me first. I've made a very conscious effort to not take the pulpit and rain down fire and brimstone about faith because I think that is counter productive.

I'm also not going to stand here and ride the fence about something I'm clear about either.

Only people with advanced equipment have even the minute possibilty. So really it has only been a handful of people.

Which we have now, right?

There are also far more than a "handful of people" working at just the Arecibo Observatory. Here you go, just at a quick glance of the directory I'd say there are atleast 50 FULL TIME scientists, engineers, and computer techs working at just that observatory:
http://www.naic.edu/directory/staffdir_set.htm

To further illustrate this, why don't you read this about SETI (which stands for Search for Extraterrestrial Intelligence)?:

http://www.space.com/searchforlife/o...ke_000407.html

Here is also a rather long list of other radio telescope sights from around the world. Again, proof positive that there are far more than merele a "handful" of people peering up at the skies trying to find aliens:

http://www.r-clarke.org.uk/astrolinks_radio.htm

Again, this is merely for radio telescopes. There are far more optical telescope sites and observatories than radio telescopes. Would you like a few links to those places?

So do you still stand by the notion that only a "handful" of people are looking for your aliens still?????

I don't believe in miracles and I suppose it depends on your definition of chance.

Paul started another thread about this very subject, so I'll defer to that thread for this discussion.

No one is arguing that the Bible doesn't exist. I can hold a telescope in my hand is that tangible enough for you? I can even prove the telescope works.

What's that got to do with the price of tea in China???? :confused:

The mere existance of a Bible is sometimes tangible proof that Jesus existed. I emphasize sometimes because to some people like you guys that's not enough. I understand that and respect that, hence this discussion's entire reason for going in many directions. But the fact that you guys are questioning the validity of it's contents by using such conclusions as "Jesus' body has never been recovered" or "they don't mention Jesus in Roman history" leads me to believe that you guys are wanting tangible proof to make up your mind. The Bible is one of only many tangible proofs I can offer. It's obvious that you guys don't want to accept that, and I'm OK with that. I'm no Bible scholar. I don't own a business whose only purpose is to convert non-believers. So, I can only do what I think is right, and I don't take it personal that you guys don't believe me. I can only explain it the way I understand it and believe it. Neither one of you guys HAVE to believe any of it. That is not going to be a reflection on me because I can lead you to water but I can't make you drink.

[AWD OWNZ U]

I'm crystal clear on this actually. You on the other hand are double talking.

"Even if we never find it...it doesn't prove it doesn't exist", "lack of proof is not proof of it's opposite", "I don't believe in God because it makes no sense".....you say all that only to finish the very same paragraph with...."It's possible that a Christian God exists, just not probable"....?????

You are full of double talk there. Again, I guess you think that riding the fence is the safest bet to make. Make whatever choices make you sleep better at night. You still didn't say a darn thing in that paragraph because you contradicted yourself over and over again. Just double talk.

Um, no. Everything falls in order there is no double talk. Your point is that there is no life in universe because we haven't found any. Hence the lack of proof is not proof of it's opposite. Your reasoning is flawed. I think there is probably life in the universe because scientific probability of it is great. Then you say I'm double talking because I don't believe in God because there is no proof of his existance. I'm telling you that's not that case. I don't believe in God because the entire concept makes no sense logically it has nothing to do with lack of proof.

It does for me, and that's all that matters. If you don't want to believe something, you simply don't. That's your choice.

You can't be serious? Can you believe I have an STi? Because I'd sure like one.

Again, double talk.

Just a few sentences earlier you were telling me that we will probably NEVER "prove" other life forms exist in the universe and I quote, "before human kind goes extinct", yet YOU STILL believe it exists. Explain to me how "not finding it before human kind goes extinct" PROVES anything to you.

So even you admit that's foolish, huh?

Double talk.

Don't put words in mouth. I said the odds of us finding life by this point in time were poor and that IF we never find life that doesn't prove it doesn't exist. Technology continues to advance and we continue to expand our borders in space. I would be surprised if we never ran across at least primitve life.

Which we have now, right?

There are also far more than a "handful of people" working at just the Arecibo Observatory. Here you go, just at a quick glance of the directory I'd say there are atleast 50 FULL TIME scientists, engineers, and computer techs working at just that observatory:
http://www.naic.edu/directory/staffdir_set.htm

To further illustrate this, why don't you read this about SETI (which stands for Search for Extraterrestrial Intelligence)?:

http://www.space.com/searchforlife/o...ke_000407.html

Here is also a rather long list of other radio telescope sights from around the world. Again, proof positive that there are far more than merele a "handful" of people peering up at the skies trying to find aliens:

http://www.r-clarke.org.uk/astrolinks_radio.htm

Again, this is merely for radio telescopes. There are far more optical telescope sites and observatories than radio telescopes. Would you like a few links to those places?

So do you still stand by the notion that only a "handful" of people are looking for your aliens still?????

Handful in scale to the amount of people on the planet. The first link you posted doesn't even have anything to do with finding life. Not all radio telescopes are used for that you know.

The mere existance of a Bible is sometimes tangible proof that Jesus existed. I emphasize sometimes because to some people like you guys that's not enough. I understand that and respect that, hence this discussion's entire reason for going in many directions. But the fact that you guys are questioning the validity of it's contents by using such conclusions as "Jesus' body has never been recovered" or "they don't mention Jesus in Roman history" leads me to believe that you guys are wanting tangible proof to make up your mind. The Bible is one of only many tangible proofs I can offer. It's obvious that you guys don't want to accept that, and I'm OK with that. I'm no Bible scholar. I don't own a business whose only purpose is to convert non-believers. So, I can only do what I think is right, and I don't take it personal that you guys don't believe me. I can only explain it the way I understand it and believe it. Neither one of you guys HAVE to believe any of it. That is not going to be a reflection on me because I can lead you to water but I can't make you drink.

I did not use any of those examples. I took a class on Jesus and bible in college. I've read through the so called historical evidence and there is some. In fact I'd say that Jesus was a person, the evidence against it is marginal at best and the evidence for it vaguely reasonable. There is alot however about his divinity that makes one take pause. Not really a discussion for this thread though.

[Jaimecbr900]

Um, no. Everything falls in order there is no double talk. Your point is that there is no life in universe because we haven't found any. Hence the lack of proof is not proof of it's opposite.

You did plenty of double talking.

Exhibit A is the last sentence in the quote above. How does "...lack of proof is not proof of the opposite.." NOT double talk? It says absolutely nothing. It contradicts itself. The only subject matter in which lack of proof doesn't automatically disprove anything is FAITH. Are you saying you have FAITH there are E.T.'s out there? If so, then I can't argue with that. If you are not, then you are simply double talking.

That's like when you're parents told you when you were young to "do as I SAY not as I DO". We as adults now know that was merely double talk to get us to do what they wanted us to.

Now you are trying to get thru using the same logic. "Lack of proof is not proof of the opposite". Find one thing, beside Faith, that by definition does NOT require proof to be believed. ONE.

I don't believe in God because the entire concept makes no sense logically it has nothing to do with lack of proof.

Once again you are trying to do the same thing Paul is. Trying to explain the existance of God using logic is like trying to fit a round peg in a square hole, it can be done but you'd have to bang the crap out of it to do so.

Look up the definition of Faith. Nowhere in that definition does it say anything about LOGIC. It actually says that it something that defies logic. Therefore, how in the world are you ever going to find any faith using logic??? That's like trying to put a fire out with gasoline. Won't work, right? Why? Because it just won't because of what gas is and what fire is. It just IS.

Faith is believing in something withOUT the use of logic. So how in this world are you gonna EVER find it using LOGIC?????? That's an oxymoron.

You can't be serious? Can you believe I have an STi? Because I'd sure like one.

You missed it all together.

I do in fact believe in Jesus and therefore it makes it TRUE for ME. If you don't believe, then it won't be true for YOU. So, all that matters is that I believe it for MYSELF. I don't have to have YOU believe it TOO or FOR me. I simply have to believe for myself for it to be TRUE for ME, therefore MY belief is the only one that matters for ME. Get it now?

Don't put words in mouth. I said the odds of us finding life by this point in time were poor and that IF we never find life that doesn't prove it doesn't exist.

Again, double talk.

Like I said before, do some research. Find ONE example of something that by DEFINITION does NOT require proof to believe it, besides FAITH, and you have a point. Until then, it's double talk.

You say in one sentence that proof may never be found, yet in the next you say that doesn't "prove" anything.... Yes it most certainly does.

Handful in scale to the amount of people on the planet. The first link you posted doesn't even have anything to do with finding life. Not all radio telescopes are used for that you know.

Really??? Go back and see what that is the directory of staff members FOR. It is for the Arecibo Observatory, the same world's largest radio telescope we've been talking about all along. I also included an article about SETI in which it describes USING that very same observatory since 1963 for the search of E.T.'s. So if that's not people in that observatory LOOKING for "life", I don't know what is.

I've read through the so called historical evidence and there is some. In fact I'd say that Jesus was a person, the evidence against it is marginal at best and the evidence for it vaguely reasonable. There is alot however about his divinity that makes one take pause. Not really a discussion for this thread though.

I can respect that. As a matter of fact there are several mainstream religions that believe exactly what you suspect, that Jesus was a man/prophet but NOT the son of God and NOT the saviour. That atleast is a belief. If it's right or wrong is definetly not for me to judge. That is a personal choice. I don't have any issues with anyone that thinks like that. I do however have issues with someone that doesn't believe there is a God or even no Jesus at all.

[AWD OWNZ U]

You did plenty of double talking.

Exhibit A is the last sentence in the quote above. How does "...lack of proof is not proof of the opposite.." NOT double talk? It says absolutely nothing. It contradicts itself. The only subject matter in which lack of proof doesn't automatically disprove anything is FAITH. Are you saying you have FAITH there are E.T.'s out there? If so, then I can't argue with that. If you are not, then you are simply double talking.

That's like when you're parents told you when you were young to "do as I SAY not as I DO". We as adults now know that was merely double talk to get us to do what they wanted us to.

Now you are trying to get thru using the same logic. "Lack of proof is not proof of the opposite". Find one thing, beside Faith, that by definition does NOT require proof to be believed. ONE.

http://www.intrepidsoftware.com/fallacy/ig.php

Maybe that will explain it better than I can. I'm tired man so I'm not that eloquent. I took a logic class with that Jesus class.

Look up the definition of Faith. Nowhere in that definition does it say anything about LOGIC. It actually says that it something that defies logic. Therefore, how in the world are you ever going to find any faith using logic??? That's like trying to put a fire out with gasoline. Won't work, right? Why? Because it just won't because of what gas is and what fire is. It just IS.

Faith is believing in something withOUT the use of logic. So how in this world are you gonna EVER find it using LOGIC?????? That's an oxymoron.

I guess the bottom line is I don't believe in faith. (it's validity obviously it exists)

You missed it all together.

I do in fact believe in Jesus and therefore it makes it TRUE for ME. If you don't believe, then it won't be true for YOU. So, all that matters is that I believe it for MYSELF. I don't have to have YOU believe it TOO or FOR me. I simply have to believe for myself for it to be TRUE for ME, therefore MY belief is the only one that matters for ME. Get it now?

Truth is absolute, you cannot have a different truth than I do.

Again, double talk.

Like I said before, do some research. Find ONE example of something that by DEFINITION does NOT require proof to believe it, besides FAITH, and you have a point. Until then, it's double talk.

You say in one sentence that proof may never be found, yet in the next you say that doesn't "prove" anything.... Yes it most certainly does.

No it most certainly does not. Back in the day everyone thought the earth was flat and no one was capable of proving it round. Was it flat then? Did the lack of proof make it less round? Of course not.

Really??? Go back and see what that is the directory of staff members FOR. It is for the Arecibo Observatory, the same world's largest radio telescope we've been talking about all along. I also included an article about SETI in which it describes USING that very same observatory since 1963 for the search of E.T.'s. So if that's not people in that observatory LOOKING for "life", I don't know what is.

I read their own page about what they do, it says nothing about searching for life. Maybe they use some of their equipment part time, but certainly not the whole facility all the time. Not that it really makes a difference.

I can respect that. As a matter of fact there are several mainstream religions that believe exactly what you suspect, that Jesus was a man/prophet but NOT the son of God and NOT the saviour. That atleast is a belief. If it's right or wrong is definetly not for me to judge. That is a personal choice. I don't have any issues with anyone that thinks like that. I do however have issues with someone that doesn't believe there is a God or even no Jesus at all.

I don't believe in God, sorry. Well at least not the Christian notion of one.