Plane on a treadmill poll...

[joecoolfreak]

The point is in that case echo the speed of the car is 0. There is no equivalent of the speedometer that measures the speed of the wheels. The original example explicitly stated the speed of the plane, so therefore it must move. The reason that it moves is because the engines push or pull it through the air and the wheels just spin freely, so it doesn't matter how fast you spin the wheels, ie..the conveyor belt in this case will spin them at the exact same speed that the plane is moving...therefor it IS moving and will have airflow for lift etc...

[BABY J]

The propeller is what's making the wheels on an airplane spin. It does this because it's forcing air backwards. Not that hard to grasp.

Null. We are talking JET aircraft. You are diluting the thread w/ the prop talk.

[speedminded]

really? put your car on a dyno(I know planes aren't powered by their wheels. thanks for the info). for the sake of argument, lets say the speedometer says 100mph. is the car actually going 100mph? NO. it's sitting there with the wheels spinning. now, stick your hand out the window. is there wind shooting over it like if you were on the highway? NO. so what makes you think there will be wind going over the wings of a plane?

Your digging an even deeper hole. Because the power of the vehicle is coming from the wheels....do you not think i can walk up the back off the car and push it forward (or even pull it backwards) off the dyno as it's spinning 100mph? The force i'm using to move the car is no differant that the engine of a plane.

[GTScoob]

Old ass debate. I would still say that no the plane wont take off, a plane can takeoff standing still if it has a strong enough headwind but if it is just rolling on a conveyor belt then it's relative groundspeed (assuming no airspeed) is zero and it cannot create any lift.

[JennB]

Ok got ANOTHER one for you.

Take a skateboard and a pair of the large bottle rockets. Tape the bottle rockets to the skateboard and place on a treadmill (preferably as level as possible to replicate the conveyor & airplane) Turn on the treadmill, we agree just with your fingertip you can hold the skateboard stationary....now light the two bottle rockets....will the skateboard not launch forward?

It will very certainly fly forward and most likely scare the crap out of any animals in the area

[BABY J]

really? put your car on a dyno(I know planes aren't powered by their wheels. thanks for the info). for the sake of argument, lets say the speedometer says 100mph. is the car actually going 100mph? NO. it's sitting there with the wheels spinning. now, stick your hand out the window. is there wind shooting over it like if you were on the highway? NO. so what makes you think there will be wind going over the wings of a plane?

Hmmm... I'll play with you. Why do they strap cars down on the dyno? Please tell me.

[joecoolfreak]

Old ass debate. I would still say that no the plane wont take off, a plane can takeoff standing still if it has a strong enough headwind but if it is just rolling on a conveyor belt then it's relative groundspeed (assuming no airspeed) is zero and it cannot create any lift.

If it's ground speed was zero...then the treadmill would have to match a speed of zero......wind is irrellavent..speed of the treadmill is irrellavent...prop or jet is irrellevent guys...don't let the whole treadmill throw you off...the only thing it is doing is spinning the tires...the tires are irrellevant to the plane moving or flying.

[speedminded]

Old ass debate. I would still say that no the plane wont take off, a plane can takeoff standing still if it has a strong enough headwind but if it is just rolling on a conveyor belt then it's relative groundspeed (assuming no airspeed) is zero and it cannot create any lift.

Back of the moron line. Quit thinking so much. Determine whether something is capable of moving forward on a conveyor or treadmill before attempting to worry about how a plane flies.

[Xan]

Null. We are talking JET aircraft. You are diluting the thread w/ the prop talk.

If we are talking jets then no, it will never leave the ground on a speed matching conveyor belt.

[joecoolfreak]

Ok...I have one taker for my wager...any others?...if you are so sure that the plane can't take off from the treadmill stand up and prove it.

[speedminded]

If we are talking jets then no, it will never leave the ground on a speed matching conveyor belt.

LISTEN, jet or prop, the formula to this debate DOES NOT change. IT has no effect on the outcome...none what's so ever.

[speedminded]

The propeller is what's making the wheels on an airplane spin. It does this because it's forcing air backwards. Not that hard to grasp.

Edit: Better yet. Put a prop plane on a dyno. Set the windspeed to 100 MPH. Stick your head out the window. Is there wind coming back at you?

lol well first of all...the dyno won't spin a fucking 1/4 inch because no power is being applied to the wheels....never ever ever on a plane. quit talking.

[{X}Echo419]

Old ass debate. I would still say that no the plane wont take off, a plane can takeoff standing still if it has a strong enough headwind but if it is just rolling on a conveyor belt then it's relative groundspeed (assuming no airspeed) is zero and it cannot create any lift.

BINGO! now lets see if any of these dim wits can grasp this concept.

[man]

here we go, I'll use an awesome example that Ruiner used during the last debate.

Take a hotwheels car and place it on a treadmill. Your hand is going to be the source of thrust. Are you all trying to tell me that you can't push a hotwheels car forward on a treadmill?

[speedminded]

BINGO! now lets see if any of these dim wits can grasp this concept.

answer it...

Ok got ANOTHER one for you.

Take a skateboard and a pair of the large bottle rockets. Tape the bottle rockets to the skateboard and place on a treadmill (preferably as level as possible to replicate the conveyor & airplane) Turn on the treadmill, we agree just with your fingertip you can hold the skateboard stationary....now light the two bottle rockets....will the skateboard not launch forward?

[man]

BINGO! now lets see if any of these dim wits can grasp this concept.

God! I hate those dim-witted GA Tech Aerospace Engineers!

[Xan]

LISTEN, jet or prop, the formula to this debate DOES NOT change. IT has no effect on the outcome...none what's so ever.

Answer please. If a jet engine provides thrust at the rear of the jet(When say provides thrust I mean it's pushing air out from the rear of the jet) and the conveyor is keeping the jet from physically "moving, rolling, lurching, anything" forward, WHERE THE HELL IS THE WIND SPEED COMING FROM!?

[speedminded]

God! I hate those dim-witted GA Tech Aerospace Engineers!

but can you explain the miracle of birth to a rock? eh? com'n? what's that? Not smart enough for that are you? so i guess we are all so damn dim-witted that we can't even explain it to him.

[speedminded]

Answer please. If a jet engine provides thrust at the rear of the jet(When say provides thrust I mean it's pushing air out from the rear of the jet) and the conveyor is keeping the jet from physically "moving, rolling, lurching, anything" forward, WHERE THE HELL IS THE WIND SPEED COMING FROM!?

Explain how is the conveyor is preventing it from moving? answer this first...

Ok got ANOTHER one for you.

Take a skateboard and a pair of the large bottle rockets. Tape the bottle rockets to the skateboard and place on a treadmill (preferably as level as possible to replicate the conveyor & airplane) Turn on the treadmill, we agree just with your fingertip you can hold the skateboard stationary....now light the two bottle rockets....will the skateboard not launch forward?

[joecoolfreak]

Answer please. If a jet engine provides thrust at the rear of the jet(When say provides thrust I mean it's pushing air out from the rear of the jet) and the conveyor is keeping the jet from physically "moving, rolling, lurching, anything" forward, WHERE THE HELL IS THE WIND SPEED COMING FROM!?

It's not keeping it from moving and it never will, hence the fact that it doesn't matter. The speed is coming from the fact that the plane or jet IS freakin moving. That is what makes this whole arguement so difficult to grasp for some people. The belt cannot effect the plane one way or another because it only effects the wheels and they have nothing to do with the plane because it doesn't use wheels for power.

[BABY J]

He hasn't answered any of the questions I asked. I do not expect him to. And the 1 I DID ask he answered "no, and then if yes". WTF??? Is it no or yes. LOL.

[man]

but can you explain the miracle of birth to a rock? eh? com'n? what's that? Not smart enough for that are you? so i guess we are all so damn dim-witted that we can't even explain it to him.

You got me there.

[{X}Echo419]

The propeller is what's making the wheels on an airplane spin. It does this because it's forcing air backwards. Not that hard to grasp.

Edit: Better yet. Put a prop plane on a dyno. Set the windspeed to 100 MPH. Stick your head out the window. Is there wind coming back at you?

no

[speedminded]

Answer it...

Ok got ANOTHER one for you.

Take a skateboard and a pair of the large bottle rockets. Tape the bottle rockets to the skateboard and place on a treadmill (preferably as level as possible to replicate the conveyor & airplane) Turn on the treadmill, we agree just with your fingertip you can hold the skateboard stationary....now light the two bottle rockets....will the skateboard not launch forward?

[{X}Echo419]

Answer it...

if it's going faster than the treadmill yes. if it is not going FASTER than the treadmill, no.

now, lets see if you can understand that.

[speedminded]

no

What the hell do you think a plane would do on a dyno?

[Xan]

We are using a progressive conveyor right? Progressive as in when thrust increases the conveyor speed increases?

[joecoolfreak]

if it's going faster than the treadmill yes. if it is not going FASTER than the treadmill, no.

now, lets see if you can understand that.

What are you using to judge the speed of the plane?

[speedminded]

We are using a progressive conveyor right? Progressive as in when thrust increases the conveyor speed increases?

sure, if you want....but the amount of pressure/force/thrust etc. required to hold the plane stationary is not effected by the speed of the conveyor....again, whether it's going 1mph or 1,000mph.

[joecoolfreak]

We are using a progressive conveyor right? Progressive as in when thrust increases the conveyor speed increases?

Progressive as in when speed of plane increases, conveyor speed increases...but it still doesn't matter

[BABY J]

We are using a progressive conveyor right? Progressive as in when thrust increases the conveyor speed increases?

THANK YOU HOLY SHIT!!!! THE ENGINES ARE NOT CONNECTED TO THE WHEELS/TREADMILL IN ANY WAY!!!!! THERE IS NO WAY FOR TO "METER" THE TWO!!! THE CONVEYOR CAN ONLY MATCH THE SPEED OF THE WHEELS, WHICH HAS NO EFFECT ON PUSHING THE AIRPLANE FORWARD!!!!

CAN I GET A WITNESS???

[{X}Echo419]

What the hell do you think a plane would do on a dyno?

same thing it would do on a GOD DAMN CONVEYOR(see below). NOT FLY THAT' FOR FUCKING SURE!

We are using a progressive conveyor right? Progressive as in when thrust increases the conveyor speed increases?

________
looks like joecoolfreak is the only putting up.

[BABY J]

If the plane stayed stationary relative to the ground, indeed it would not take off. But it won't stay stationary relative to the ground (assuming the wheels spin without friction). The plane will move relative to the treadmill, no matter how fast the treadmill moves. So it will merely fall off the front of the treadmill. Or, if the treadmill is very long, it will speed up relative to both the ground and the air, and then take off.

Think of it with respect to the wheelchair on the treadmill. You're sitting in a wheelchair on a treadmill. The wheelchair wheels turn w/o friction. I stand behind you and hold you in place. The treadmill starts to move. I just hold you there, and the wheels spin. The treadmill moves faster. I don't have to hold you with any more force, the wheels just spin faster. Work is done by the treadmill on the wheels, but there is no force whatsoever on the wheelchair from the treadmill. Its only function is to spin the wheels faster. Now say I walk alongside the treadmill and push you along. The speed you move forward is completely independent of the speed with which the treadmill turns.

This is basically the same thing that's happening to the plane, because the engines are pushing you relative to the air, not the ground!!!! GROW A BRAIN AND SEE THIS!!!

[speedminded]

same thing it would do on a GOD DAMN CONVEYOR(see below). NOT FLY THAT' FOR FUCKING SURE!

lol, no really...what do you suppose will happen to a plane on a dyno? would the wheels spin?

[speedminded]

answer it!

Ok got ANOTHER one for you.

Take a skateboard and a pair of the large bottle rockets. Tape the bottle rockets to the skateboard and place on a treadmill (preferably as level as possible to replicate the conveyor & airplane) Turn on the treadmill, we agree just with your fingertip you can hold the skateboard stationary....now light the two bottle rockets....will the skateboard not launch forward?

[Ruiner]

there's NO WIND PASSING OVER THE WINGS! it won't fly. NEWTON SAYS SO

But there will be once the plane starts moving forward! The plane will move forward JUST like on a NORMAL runway and take off. That is what you need to conceptualize! As soon as you can picture that in your head, you have the answer.

[Ruiner]

really? put your car on a dyno(I know planes aren't powered by their wheels. thanks for the info). for the sake of argument, lets say the speedometer says 100mph. is the car actually going 100mph? NO. it's sitting there with the wheels spinning. now, stick your hand out the window. is there wind shooting over it like if you were on the highway? NO. so what makes you think there will be wind going over the wings of a plane?

But what will the SPEEDO on the plane say!? Zero, that's right. The plane would have no speed. If the plane has no speed, then the conveyor belt has NO speed.

[speedminded]

He neg repped me and took off...com'n i wanna play some more. Answer my two questions above!

[Ruiner]

why'dyou bring this up again brandon?

So that I can point and laugh at the 20 people that voted "no".

[Xan]

What I was getting at with the progressive conveyor was that the plane wouldn't take off because it was "moving" forward on the conveyor like you guys are saying. The way I've always heard this question stated is that there is NO movement in relation to the plane. It NEVER builds any speed other than windspeed.