Plane on a treadmill poll...

[Ruiner]

..and the speed at which the plane travels while in lift-off is directly related to the amount of thrust created so...how is what I said any different?

It's related, but they are not always equal. You can only be under 30% throttle and still have the necessary speed for takeoff. You can also be at 100% thrust and still take off as well. 2000lbs of thrust = what speed? See what I mean? Just like in your car, does 100% throttle from a 20mph punch up to 60mph match up? Nope. You can punch it to 90% throttle while at 30mph and only hold it for 5 seconds and then drop it off to 0% throttle, yet your speed will still be up there.

[JennB]

Yeah, negative repo me becuase I understand something you don't.

I really wish anyone who voted no would just read all of the links I posted. It clearly explains why it will take off. The Straight Dope is a very reputable website and book series, I assure you they are right. One of the others was an aviation website, I believe them as well. It's really not that hard to figure out.

Use the analogies and use your brain. The skateboard, the model plane, go grab either and test them yourself.

[speedminded]

Echo's back, answer my two questions...

[BABY J]

...Think of it with respect to the wheelchair on the treadmill. You're sitting in a wheelchair on a treadmill. The wheelchair wheels turn w/o friction. I stand behind you and hold you in place. The treadmill starts to move. I just hold you there, and the wheels spin. The treadmill moves faster. I don't have to hold you with any more force, the wheels just spin faster. Work is done by the treadmill on the wheels, but there is no force whatsoever on the wheelchair from the treadmill. Its only function is to spin the wheels faster. Now say I walk alongside the treadmill and push you along. The speed you move forward is completely independent of the speed with which the treadmill turns.

This is basically the same thing that's happening to the plane, because the engines are pushing you relative to the air, not the ground!

PLEASE tell me all of the "no it will not fly" people get this.

[BABY J]

ECHO. All I need is a DIRECT yes or no answer on if the plane will stand still or move forward on the treadmill once the engines are fired. I'm begging you to answer this.

[{X}Echo419]

ECHO. All I need is a DIRECT yes or no answer on if the plane will stand still or move forward on the treadmill once the engines are fired. I'm begging you to answer this.

is this clear enough for you fly boy? or should I write it on a stick and beat you with it?

And if we are using a progressive conveyor belt that will ALWAYS match the amount of thrust put out, then a jet aircraft will never take off because it couldn't build any windspeed.

Ok, what do you suppose is keeping the airplane stationary on the conveyor?

nm, you answered it here. You do understand that the conveyor has no effect on how much air the plane can pull and or push right?

the conveyor dumb ass.
do you even know what a conveyor is?

[speedminded]

is this clear enough for you fly boy? or should I write it on a stick and beat you with it?

the conveyor dumb ass.
do you even know what a conveyor is?

Not being bright enough for the air force is no reason to act like that towards baby j....and if you wanna argue with that, i was ONE answer from getting a perfect score on the ASVAB. What was yours?

Of course I know what a conveyor is and i am willing to bet i've spent more time around and working on them than you have. 15 years on a farm teach you a few things

[{X}Echo419]

PLEASE tell me all of the "no it will not fly" people get this.

ECHO. All I need is a DIRECT yes or no answer on if the plane will stand still or move forward on the treadmill once the engines are fired. I'm begging you to answer this.

And if we are using a progressive conveyor belt that will ALWAYS match the amount of thrust put out, then a jet aircraft will never take off because it couldn't build any windspeed.

THIS IS THE LAST TIME I TRY TO GET THROUGH YOUR(AND OTHERS) THICK SKULL)
you DO know what thrust is? don't you fly boy?

If thrust is great enough to over come the loss(because if the plane is shut off and put on the treadmill it will go backwords. Do you get that?) of land speed from the treadmill it can take off.
Anything less than that will result in a loud plane on the ground.
Now, initally(sp) the question was posed(I assume. b/c that's how it was posed b4) with the plane land speed(that is how fast the plane would be going on NORMAL ground. do you understand?) matching that of the treadmill. which(don't drop your sippy cup!) would NOT result in a flying plane.

[Ruiner]

If thrust is great enough to over come the loss(because if the plane is shut off and put on the treadmill it will go backwords. Do you get that?) of land speed from the treadmill it can take off.
.

Would you agree that initially, the plane would not go backwards at the speed of the conveyor belt, though? Would you agree that it would go back slowly at first, and then pick up speed? All because of the free rolling wheels, yes?

[speedminded]

THIS IS THE LAST TIME I TRY TO GET THROUGH YOUR(AND OTHERS) THICK SKULL)
you DO know what thrust is? don't you fly boy?

If thrust is great enough to over come the loss(because if the plane is shut off and put on the treadmill it will go backwords. Do you get that?) of land speed from the treadmill it can take off.
Anything less than that will result in a loud plane on the ground.
Now, initally(sp) the question was posed(I assume. b/c that's how it was posed b4) with the plane land speed(that is how fast the plane would be going on NORMAL ground. do you understand?) matching that of the treadmill. which(don't drop your sippy cup!) would NOT result in a flying plane.

So you are still saying that a plane cannot move forward on a conveyor belt? Whether it's 1mph or 1,000mph you still say it's not possible?

[{X}Echo419]

Would you agree that initially, the plane would not go backwards at the speed of the conveyor belt, though? Would you agree that it would go back slowly at first, and then pick up speed? All because of the free rolling wheels, yes?

it all depends on how fast the plane is going and how fast the conveyor is going...Variables!
in short yes. without knowing what the variable are I would have to say, "yes. it's possible. B/c without knowing Anything's possible."

So you are still saying that a plane cannot move forward on a conveyor belt? Whether it's 1mph or 1,000mph you still say it's not possible?

see above.

[speedminded]

it all depends on how fast the plane is going and how fast the conveyor is going...Variables!
in short yes. without knowing what the variable are I would have to say, "yes. it's possible. B/c without knowing Anything's possible."


see above.

How many times do i have to tell you it doesn't matter the speed of the conveyor belt, the force it takes to hold the plane stationary on it is the same....which is a very very minute (MY-NUTE) force compared to the amount of thrust put out by a planes engine. The conveyor can be going 1mph or 1,000mph and the plane will still move forward and take off like any runway.

[BABY J]

ECHO:

ECHO if you are done answering my questions then I will go ahead and unsubscribe. All I want is answers... I answered all of your questions. And as far as dumbasses go... well...

FURTHERMORE, there are mulitple runways due to

1) traffic
2) direction of the wind (to provide take-off and landings in headwinds when possible)
3) 1 crash does not incapacitate a major hub for days while they clean up

** So in my wheelchair example. I will not be able to push you forward on the treadmill correct?

[man]

** So in my wheelchair example. I will not be able to push you forward on the treadmill correct?

Psh... dumbass you think wheelchairs can fly? I'm switching over to echo's side.

/sarcasm

[speedminded]

Psh... dumbass you think wheelchairs can fly? I'm switching over to echo's side.

/sarcasm

lolol.

[BABY J]

Psh... dumbass you think wheelchairs can fly? I'm switching over to echo's side.

/sarcasm

Fuck it, I am switching over too!!! LOL

[speedminded]

Echo logic...

[BABY J]

THAT WAS FUCKIN HILARIOUS!!!! LOL. I am not laughing at the "it will not fly people." I'm trying to help them understand.

You have to approach it sytematically --> before we even worry about it FLYING we have to determine if the JET powered aircraft on a treadmill is rendered accelerationless due to the fact that it is indeed on a treadmill. The answer is NO. Therefore, it will accellerate. Therefore it will ALSO generate airflow over the wing and achieve flight. The people that say NO are hung up on how it will MOVE on the treadmill, not the fact that if it DOES move that it will achieve flight. I will assume that they are smart enuff to know that it will achieve flight if it can move forward... WHICH IT WILL DO!

I think my wheelchair example pretty much makes it dummy-proof. NE1 who does not get it after that, I dunno what to tell you. Unless ECHO stops attacking people personally and puts some real food on my plate to eat, I am gonna unsubscribe. I'll give him time though...

[BABY J]

PS:

Maybe the Mustang is driving backwards and hates oversteer when going downhill.

[RandomGuy]

i think the plane WILL lift off... but i think someone mentioned it being stationary and still lifting off... i dont think thats the case... i think it'd travel opposite the direction that the conveyor is going at the same speed it would if it were lifting off on asphalt.

[Ruiner]

i think the plane WILL lift off... but i think someone mentioned it being stationary and still lifting off... i dont think thats the case... i think it'd travel opposite the direction that the conveyor is going at the same speed it would if it were lifting off on asphalt.

NOBODY said that...unless you were talking about a Harrier jump jet which can do that, but it's a special type of jet.

We ALL know that the airplane would have to MOVE down a LONG conveyor belt and would eventually pick up enough speed to take off.

[speedminded]

We ALL know that the airplane would have to MOVE down a LONG conveyor belt and would eventually pick up enough speed to take off.

but echo and the other 19 can't grasp the idea that no matter the speed of the conveyor belt the plane will still move forward.

[JennB]

i think the plane WILL lift off... but i think someone mentioned it being stationary and still lifting off... i dont think thats the case... i think it'd travel opposite the direction that the conveyor is going at the same speed it would if it were lifting off on asphalt.

Exactly. The plane goes 100 MPH forward, the conveyor goes 100 MPH backwards and the wheels spin at 200 MPH in between. It takes the same length of runway to take off, just like normal.

[BABY J]

Yes I understand this. The point I was making is that a jet engine pushes all the air out the back of the plane. None of the air is pushed over the wings. Therefore, a jet wouldn't be able to lift off on a progressive conveyor belt.



A prop plane, since it forces wind from the front of the plane backwards over the wings, would. Even if it were stationary the windspeed generated by the propeller would lift it off the ground.

So what you are saying is --> apply brakes in a prop, increase power to full, then pop the brakes and take off in 5 feet (random #)? Not gonna happen buddy!

[{X}Echo419]

So what you are saying is --> apply brakes in a prop, increase power to full, then pop the brakes and take off in 5 feet (random #)? Not gonna happen buddy!

you're on the right track.

[BABY J]

you're on the right track.

BWA BWA BWA BWA HA HA HA!!!!! YOU'RE A DUMBASS!!!

[BABY J]

you're on the right track.

So a prop driven airplane in a low to no wind can take off vertically ONLY BY PROP WASH alone. THAT is what you essentially just said!! In addition, they can HOVER AT WILL TOO!

ATTENTION EARTH!!!!:

ALL PROP PLANES ARE NOW CAPABLE OF VERTICAL TAKE OFF!!! PLEASE RESERVE ALL RUNWAYS FOR JET PLANES. HELICOPTERS, WE NO LONGER NEED YOU B/C THE REASON YOU WERE INVENTED WAS POINTLESS B/C WE DIDN'T KNOW THAT TURBO PROPS DO NOT NEED RUNWAYS!!!


BWA BWA BWA BWA HA HA!!! STOP IT MAN, JUST STOP IT!!!

[{X}Echo419]

So a prop driven airplane in a low to no wind can take off vertically ONLY BY PROP WASH alone. THAT is what you essentially just said!! In addition, they can HOVER AT WILL TOO!

ATTENTION EARTH!!!!:

ALL PROP PLANES ARE NOW CAPABLE OF VERTICAL TAKE OFF!!! PLEASE RESERVE ALL RUNWAYS FOR JET PLANES. HELICOPTERS, WE NO LONGER NEED YOU B/C THE REASON YOU WERE INVENTED WAS POINTLESS B/C WE DIDN'T KNOW THAT TURBO PROPS DO NOT NEED RUNWAYS!!!


BWA BWA BWA BWA HA HA!!! STOP IT MAN, JUST STOP IT!!!

I didn't say that you dumbass! in fact it was more of the exact oppsite....
wait a minute. Welcome to the ignore list pal. DIAF!

[BABY J]

I didn't say that you dumbass! in fact it was more of the exact oppsite....
wait a minute. Welcome to the ignore list pal. DIAF!

READ POST 268, 272, 274, 276. You agreed w/ XAN on propwash being able to make a prop plane take off in 5 feet (a random # I threw out there)

[Xan]

So what you are saying is --> apply brakes in a prop, increase power to full, then pop the brakes and take off in 5 feet (random #)? Not gonna happen buddy!

Have you tried it yet? I'm not sure of the maximum thrust a propeller is capable of delivering, but i bet it's enough to get the plane off the ground. Maybe not fly away, but get it off the ground none the less. Maybe something larger like a c-130 with multiple propellers per wing? I wonder if that would work? This would make a great Mythbusters episode.

Oh well. It's 3 o'clock. Have a good weekend everyone. Remember, noone's stupid. We're all just hard headed.

[BABY J]

Have you tried it yet? I'm not sure of the maximum thrust a propeller is capable of delivering, but i bet it's enough to get the plane off the ground. Maybe not fly away, but get it off the ground none the less. Maybe something larger like a c-130 with multiple propellers per wing? I wonder if that would work? This would make a great Mythbusters episode.

Oh well. It's 3 o'clock. Have a good weekend everyone. Remember, noone's stupid. We're all just hard headed.

JATO pack. Google it. Have a great weekend. (Jet Assisted TakeOff)

[JennB]

Remember, noone's stupid.

I'm going to have to respectfully disagree with that one

[BABY J]

THE MATCHING IS THE SPEED OF THE PLANE (just like my wheelchair example when I hold the chair from moving AT ALL), NOT THE FUCKING THRUST!!!!! I DROPPED MY SIPPY CUP B/C YOU NEED IT MORE THAN I DO TARD! READ THE DAMN 1ST POST LADY!!!

[{X}Echo419]

THE MATCHING IS THE SPEED OF THE PLANE (just like my wheelchair example when I hold the chair from moving AT ALL), NOT THE FUCKING THRUST!!!!! I DROPPED MY SIPPY CUP B/C YOU NEED IT MORE THAN I DO TARD! READ THE DAMN 1ST POST LADY!!!

ok, you're helpless.

go take some more gehy pics of yourself and post them in the health and wellness section.
I'm done with you.

[man]

Echo are you in school?

[man]

maybe I should draw up a diagram

[TheSnail]

WOW, 19 pages! And thats not a good sign.

[Ruiner]

{X}Echo419, try this...

Take a piece of paper and lay it on the table...
Take a matchbox car and roll it across the paper with your hand...
Now, while the car is moving across the paper, pull the paper back at whatever pace you are pulling it forward...

Does it make the car stop or spin backwards? Is it harder to push forward? Nope.

[Ruiner]

{X}Echo419, try this...

Take a piece of paper and lay it on the table...
Take a matchbox car and roll it across the paper with your hand...
Now, while the car is moving across the paper, pull the paper back at whatever pace you are pushing the car forward...

Does it make the car stop or spin backwards? Is it harder to push forward? Nope.

Just pretend that the matchbox car with the free rolling wheels is a plane and your hand is thrust from the engine. The paper is the conveyor belt.

Heck, if you can get ahold of a smaller plane with wheels, that will work even better.

Let me know the out come. Better yet, put a matchbox car/small model plane with free rolling wheels on a conveyor belt and test it yourself.

[{X}Echo419]

Just pretend that the matchbox car with the free rolling wheels is a plane and your hand is thrust from the engine. The paper is the conveyor belt.

Heck, if you can get ahold of a smaller plane with wheels, that will work even better.

Let me know the out come. Better yet, put a matchbox car/small model plane with free rolling wheels on a conveyor belt and test it yourself.

me and joecoolfreak are going to put a small plane on a treadmill this weekend.

and I thought the wheels didn't matter and all that?

ya, know what nvm. I GOTTA get some work done here and TRY to enjoy my weekend.