Plane on a treadmill poll...

[Ruiner]

Just answer the poll. I'm not looking for some explanation as I already know the damn answer. Either you think that the plane will take off or it won't. It's very simple. I would like to keep a record of who says it will and who says it won't. When the question is finally proven, we can all laugh at the people who were wrong. I made this thread public so that all of IA.com can know where you stand. Don't be a pussy, answer up. Stand by your convictions...

Why am I doing this? I'm bored.

Here is the question:

Suppose a plane is on a runway that acts as a conveyer belt. The conveyor belt is as long as a typical runway. The plane moves in one direction, while the conveyer moves in the opposite direction at the same speed as the plane. The wheels of the plane are free-rolling. Will the plane be able to take off?

Once again, I don't want an explanation. I already know the answer.

[TheSnail]

Yes because a plane is propelled by pushing air. It will go and take off at the same speed but its wheels will just spin faster.

[Ruiner]

Yes because a plane is propelled by pushing air. It will go and take off at the same speed but its wheels will just spin faster.

So very true, but unfortunately, people can't grasp this concept.

[ScreaminZetec]

So very true, but unfortunately, people can't grasp this concept.

Your right, I just didnt think about the airplane having the thrust to overcome the speed of the tread mill. As long as it can generate forward movement enough to create airflow over then wings then yeah it would take off. I was thinking about it as if the airplane ran at the same speed as the tread mill as in no forward movement.

[fight club]

Your right, I just didnt think about the airplane having the thrust to overcome the speed of the tread mill. As long as it can generate forward movement enough to create airflow over then wings then yeah it would take off. I was thinking about it as if the airplane ran at the same speed as the tread mill as in no forward movement.

no, your wrong. the plane doesnt have to overcome anything. the plane will take off as it would normally. the wheels would just be spinning really fast.

[speedminded]

no, your wrong. the plane doesnt have to overcome anything. the plane will take off as it would normally. the wheels would just be spinning really fast.

Exactly, the plane would take off no differantly with the exception that the wheels would be spinning at the same rate the plane is traveling forward PLUS the speed the treadmill is going. It's REALLY simple, a treadmill has ZERO effect on air movement, currents, drag, lift, etc.

[ScreaminZetec]

no, your wrong. the plane doesnt have to overcome anything. the plane will take off as it would normally. the wheels would just be spinning really fast.

right but it still needs airflow over the wings to create lift. So it either needs a very strong head wind or it need forward movement. And the reason a plane takes off on an aircraft carrier is the cat as well as the carrier steamin at 20 knots into the wind which createst the airflow over the wing. So the plane does need the movement to generate life. Cause if it's stationary on the treadmill and just rolling on its wheels that doesnt creat life as there is no airflow over the wings.

[chuck]

So very true, but unfortunately, people can't grasp this concept.

i can't grasp the concept of a stationary wing having any lift...no high or low pressure areas

[joecoolfreak]

i can't grasp the concept of a stationary wing having any lift...no high or low pressure areas

It's not stationary

[chuck]

It's not stationary

from how i see it, the wheels are the only thing moving on the plane...the wheels are going the same speed as the treadmill so the plane is continuing to occupy the same space (as stated in the question). if the plane isn't moving foward or backward because of the treadmill then it seems pretty stationary to me...i just don't understand where the lift comes from. the engines provide the thrust but it seems to me that only when the plane is actually traveling from say point a to point b that the air would move across the wing, without the air moving across the wing (because its stationary) i don't see where the lift comes from....make anymore sense or is it still not stationary??

i'm not trying to be a smartass but can someone please explain where the lift comes from?? i really want to grasp the concept, it's fustrating me, haha

and do those rubberband planes really take off from the ground??? i've always wound them up and thrown them off a deck or something...

[2.0civic]

It's not stationary

it would be stationary because the treadmill is moving...not the plane. the only lift would be through what little wind the propeller threw over the wings

[Ruiner]

i can't grasp the concept of a stationary wing having any lift...no high or low pressure areas

What you are failing to grasp is the concept that the wheels will spin faster, but that's it. The plane will still move forward.

Like I said earlier:

Take a hotwheels/matchbox car and push it on a piece of paper.

The car represents the plane, it's wheels represent the FREE ROLLING wheels of the plane, your arm represents the force of the engine pushing the plane, and the paper represents the treadmill.

Pull the paper backwards while pushing the car forward. Do you feel ANY pull on the car? No. Did you notice that the car's wheels spin faster? Yes. Do you need to exert MORE force to push the car? No. No matter how FAST you pull the paper. the same force is needed to push the car.

[/thread]

[chuck]

What you are failing to grasp is the concept that the wheels will spin faster, but that's it. The plane will still move forward.

Like I said earlier:

Take a hotwheels/matchbox car and push it on a piece of paper.

The car represents the plane, it's wheels represent the FREE ROLLING wheels of the plane, your arm represents the force of the engine pushing the plane, and the paper represents the treadmill.

Pull the paper backwards while pushing the car forward. Do you feel ANY pull on the car? No. Did you notice that the car's wheels spin faster? Yes. Do you need to exert MORE force to push the car? No. No matter how FAST you pull the paper. the same force is needed to push the car.

[/thread]

aight aight...i get what you guys were saying now...i was thinking the planes ground speed was constantly the same as the treadmill, like running on a treadmill, you don't actually go anywhere....but yeah, i see how the force of the thrust can move it forward with the treadmill still going the opposite way with free moving wheels

...i guess i just had a misunderstanding of the "while the conveyer moves in the opposite direction at the same speed as the plane"

but i still have questions...even though they weren't asked for...
so if the plane and the treadmill are always at the same speed then how does the plane move?? say the plane pulls foward at 5mph, the treadmill would go backward at 5mph, i'm assuming the wheels would be spinning at 10mph but the plane would be chilling there??

i get the concept that the plane can move foward but i don't get how it could on a treadmill going the same speed but backward...i think i'm getting mixed up in the plane speed, wheel speed and treadmill speed...grrr

[SixSquared]

No... backwards and forwards movement = the plane is standing still, even though the wheels are moving. Planes count on airflow to get lift.... you don't feel a breeze when you run on a treadmill.. therefore, no lift = no flying.

[TheSnail]

No... backwards and forwards movement = the plane is standing still, even though the wheels are moving. Planes count on airflow to get lift.... you don't feel a breeze when you run on a treadmill.. therefore, no lift = no flying.

It will move because its pushing its self by its propeller. Doesnt matter if the ground is moving or not. The wheels will just spin faster.

[{X}Echo419]

No... backwards and forwards movement = the plane is standing still, even though the wheels are moving. Planes count on airflow to get lift.... you don't feel a breeze when you run on a treadmill.. therefore, no lift = no flying.

this is correct! DRAG makes a plane fly! the wind traveling over the wings creates "DRAG". without it the plane will not take off.
think about it. are the wheels on the plane powered at all? no.
put a FAT A$$ fan in front of that treadmill(and boy it would have to be big) to simulate the air traveling over the wings and the mutha fooker will rise.
I can't believe some of you actually believe a plane would fly on a treadmill.

[joecoolfreak]

this is correct! DRAG makes a plane fly! the wind traveling over the wings creates "DRAG". without it the plane will not take off.
think about it. are the wheels on the plane powered at all? no.
put a FAT A$$ fan in front of that treadmill(and boy it would have to be big) to simulate the air traveling over the wings and the mutha fooker will rise.
I can't believe some of you actually believe a plane would fly on a treadmill.

And this is where it all started...The question was asked...you said no, the plane won't fly...I say yes it will. The answer...yes it will.

[{X}Echo419]

And this is where it all started...The question was asked...you said no, the plane won't fly...I say yes it will. The answer...yes it will.

WHAT makes a plane fly? huh? go ahead. lets hear what you "think".
here's some help.
http://www.allstar.fiu.edu/aero/fltmidfly.htm

[joecoolfreak]

WHAT makes a plane fly? huh? go ahead. lets hear what you "think".
here's some help.
http://www.allstar.fiu.edu/aero/fltmidfly.htm

And just for the record...I have actually flown a plane...have you? There is a reason that everyone is disagreeing with you...you don't get it...

[2.0civic]

No... backwards and forwards movement = the plane is standing still, even though the wheels are moving. Planes count on airflow to get lift.... you don't feel a breeze when you run on a treadmill.. therefore, no lift = no flying.

no airflow= no lift

[joecoolfreak]

no airflow= no lift

Geez....we know planes need airflow to lift....the point is that the plane will move forward and therefore have airflow. Still waiting on someone with the balls to try and prove me wrong.

[97prelude]

No... backwards and forwards movement = the plane is standing still, even though the wheels are moving. Planes count on airflow to get lift.... you don't feel a breeze when you run on a treadmill.. therefore, no lift = no flying.

It doesnt matter. the wheels are independent from everything else. The wheels will just move at the normal takeoff speed of the plane+the speed of the treadmill. the plane will use up just as much of the conveyor as it would a runway. its an easy concept, if u dont understand it, then u probably dont have much goin on up top.

[fight club]

yes. see ruiners picture in last thread about this.

[Wurm]

fighter jets can take off from a standstill hehe

[TheSnail]

fighter jets can take off from a standstill hehe

Harriet jet FTW!

[SL65AMG]

Harriet jet FTW!

harrier

[Wurm]

nbut the question never says anything about the engine running or having a pilot

[Wurm]

dont make snail feel smart

[TheSnail]

All it takes is Physics 101 lol, if even that.

[speedminded]

Wait, you mean planes aren't powered by their wheels?!!! Well GD, you learn something new everyday.

I want funding from sponsors to make a scale version of this experiment to make people feel really dumb, jsut to show those "engineers" that said otherwise

[BABY J]

Funny, Ruiner said do not say WHY. Now the results are diluted b/c SOME1 gave the answer away.

[TheSnail]

Funny, Ruiner said do not say WHY. Now the results are diluted b/c SOME1 gave the answer away.

Oh wups, didnt read that part. I thought we had to back up our vote.

[BABY J]

LOL. Saul Goode homey.

[Jblizzard]

nope

[RandomGuy]

lol i doubted the man in the first thread bc it seemed like it wouldnt take off... but then i thought of it like this:

u know scuba divers... they have those water jet things they hold and they move them through the water really fast:


a water jet right

imagine the diver diving upside down, on the floor, with wheels on his back.
now imagine the ocean floor is a giant treadmill in the scenario given...

would he stay put in once place, or would he continue to move forward, once the treadmill turns on?

[TheSnail]

lol i doubted the man in the first thread bc it seemed like it wouldnt take off... but then i thought of it like this:

u know scuba divers... they have those water jet things they hold and they move them through the water really fast:


a water jet right

imagine the diver diving upside down, on the floor, with wheels on his back.
now imagine the ocean floor is a giant treadmill in the scenario given...

would he stay put in once place, or would he continue to move forward, once the treadmill turns on?

If the treadmill creates a current then no.

[RandomGuy]

If the treadmill creates a current then no.

[santacruz77]

no but a helicopter will :boobies:

[man]

no but a helicopter will :boobies:

Why are people still fighting this?

[wantboost]

If the treadmill creates a current then no.