interesting argument.. (for the self proclaimed geniuses of IA)

[SilverJester]

Ok I read the first 4 pages and got tired of reading. So here's the answer...
The plane is not going to take off. The plane needs air flowing under it's wings to take off. The only way to achieve that is by moving at a certain speed. The speed is not calculated like a car's speedo (that's pseduo speed)....speed is distance/time. The plane moves 1 foot, the conveyor belt has moved 1 foot in the opposite direction.....thus it distance is 0; 0 distance divided by however long it would have taken to move 1 foot = 0 speed. The matchbox car on the treadmill example doesn't work, speed is distance/time no matter what is propelling the plane, the wheels or the jet engine, it irrelevant because it's speed si going to be matched by the convyor belt.

[MachNU]

SilverJester adn RandomGyuy thank you thats what i was getting at. Three is no air flow under the wings so there is no lift, there-for gravity is holding the plane to the ground and the blet is matching the speed of the thrust. So in this question the wheels are the key factor, untill they are off the ground they are the things holding this plane to the ground. The thrust is jsut what is moving the plane but with theblet going in the opposite direction the plane is not going anywhere sothere for there is no air flow under the wings!

[Ruiner]

SilverJester adn RandomGyuy thank you thats what i was getting at. Three is no air flow under the wings so there is no lift, there-for gravity is holding the plane to the ground and the blet is matching the speed of the thrust. So in this question the wheels are the key factor, untill they are off the ground they are the things holding this plane to the ground. The thrust is jsut what is moving the plane but with theblet going in the opposite direction the plane is not going anywhere sothere for there is no air flow under the wings!

NO! Why are you not listening to me? The belt ONLY affects the rate at which the wheels spin. If the plane is on a NORMAL runway that doesn't move, it will "ride" on the ground until it gets enough thrust (air over the wings) to generate lift. Now, if the runway is moving under it (conveyor belt), that DOES NOT matter.

It goes back to the swimmer in the swimming pool example. The belt DOES NOT affect the airflow. Can you understand this? The conveyor belt is not really able to affect the plane as the wheels roll freely.

Let me restate this:
- wheels roll freely
- wheels are the ONLY contact that the conveyor belt has with the plane
- gravity acts on the plane the same no matter if the runway is moving or not
- the conveyor belt DOES NOT affect the air
- thrust is acting against the air and the conveyor belt is acting against the wheels; which roll freely!
- once the engines get enough forward thrust, it WILL move forward.

Explain this to me:WHAT will keep the plane from moving forward?!?!? WHAT??? If the wheels are allowed to roll freely, WHAT will keep it from moving forward in terms of the conveyor belt?

[MachNU]

Dude there is no air flow nder the wings so there is no lift so there for the plane goes nowhere. If they start at the same speed and the plane thrust is started that is what pushed the plane forward, but at the same time the belt starts moving, there for the wheels are the only thing moving. The thrust is what accl. the plane, but if the wheels move at the same speed as the as the thrust can push it (this is on the ground the whole time) and there is no air flow under the wings (remember this is not outside where hte wind can pick up) then the plane will not lift or move forward!

[Ruiner]

Dude there is no air flow nder the wings so there is no lift so there for the plane goes nowhere. If they start at the same speed and the plane thrust is started that is what pushed the plane forward, but at the same time the belt starts moving, there for the wheels are the only thing moving. The thrust is what accl. the plane, but if the wheels move at the same speed as the as the thrust can push it (this is on the ground the whole time) and there is no air flow under the wings (remember this is not outside where hte wind can pick up) then the plane will not lift or move forward!

Explain this to me: WHAT will keep the plane from moving forward if there is forward thrust?!?!? WHAT??? Gravity? Yes, but that can be overcome as you and I both know. Drag on the wheels? It is very small, as they are free-rolling, but that is easily overcome. Weight of the plane? With enough forward thrust, that is negated as well, hence lift. If the wheels are allowed to roll freely, WHAT will keep it from moving forward in terms of the conveyor belt? How much force can the conveyor belt put on the plane? How much? If the plane has 300lbs of forward thrust, how much force can the conveyor belt, via the FREE ROLLING wheels, put on the plane?

Just answer me that.

[MachNU]

Explain this to me: WHAT will keep the plane from moving forward if there is forward thrust?!?!? WHAT??? Gravity? Yes, but that can be overcome as you and I both know. Drag on the wheels? It is very small, as they are free-rolling, but that is easily overcome. Weight of the plane? With enough forward thrust, that is negated as well, hence lift. If the wheels are allowed to roll freely, WHAT will keep it from moving forward in terms of the conveyor belt? How much force can the conveyor belt put on the plane? How much? If the plane has 300lbs of forward thrust, how much force can the conveyor belt, via the FREE ROLLING wheels, put on the plane?

Just answer me that.

Becuase the forward thrust is what gets the plane moving forwards. Now if the ground starts moving backwards then the plane is going to roll on the spot without moving forwards or backwards. The thrust is pretty much nothing more than accl. the thrust can push for all it was worth but with no air flow UNDEr the wings, the thrust pushes from behind the wings and back, so that stll produces no lift under the wings. There for the medium is the wheels. The example you used eariler about the two guys who tried the plane used is outside where there was still the slightest wing blowing and they used a propeller plane which wroduces a wind currect under the wings itself. A boeing does not it pushes itself forward, but if the ground under it goes nowhere then the plane goes nowhere.

[Ruiner]

Becuase the forward thrust is what gets the plane moving forwards. Now if the ground starts moving backwards then the plane is going to roll on the spot without moving forwards or backwards. The thrust is pretty much nothing more than accl. the thrust can push for all it was worth but with no air flow UNDEr the wings, the thrust pushes from behind the wings and back, so that stll produces no lift under the wings. There for the medium is the wheels. The example you used eariler about the two guys who tried the plane used is outside where there was still the slightest wing blowing and they used a propeller plane which wroduces a wind currect under the wings itself. A boeing does not it pushes itself forward, but if the ground under it goes nowhere then the plane goes nowhere.

Birthday:
July 21, 1987

You are talking to a college grad with many classes in physics and theory. Trust me on this, okay?

Do you know how jet engines work? A jet engine is like a prop, just with a TON of blades (I am simplifying this to an extent).




Here is your fallacy:

Becuase the forward thrust is what gets the plane moving forwards. Now if the ground starts moving backwards then the plane is going to roll on the spot without moving forwards or backwards.

The plane does not care about the ground. It only acts on the air. It DOES NOT care what the ground is doing IF it has free-rolling wheels. The AIR is what it cares about. If it can put force on the AIR, it will move forward. The wheels do not come into play as they are free-rolling! The conveyor belt can ONLY act on the wheels. However, I just told you that the plane does not care about the wheels. Thus, it does not care about the conveyor belt.

I asked you this earlier:

How much force can the conveyor belt put on the plane? How much? If the plane has 300lbs of forward thrust, how much force can the conveyor belt, via the FREE ROLLING wheels, put on the plane?

[Vteckidd]

Im not gonna read this all, but Ruiner is right, given this scenario it WILL TAKE OFF.

My uncle flys for Delta, he said it will take off
My father is a Mathmatician (he got all the good genes) and said it will take off.

Interesting thing i was told , my uncle who flys for delta is a WWII historian as well, and he tld me something i thought was pretty cool. In WWII the old Biplanes, well, when they were on an aircraft carrier traveling at XXspeed. he said when the planes took off, they would actually almost immiedietly take flight due to the aircraft being in motion, and the wind coming across the Deck of the ship.

something to think about