British soldier hacked to death after being run over with car

I apply the same rule to everyone...... one night i was coming home late and a cop turned his light on me on a back road, i put my flashers on, slowed down and drove about 5 miles to the nearest gas station to pull over. By the time i got to the gas station i had 3 cars behind me. The cops probably would have approached my car guns drawn, but since i always do the right hand up, left hand out the window thing, they approached somewhat normal. It also helped that i had a puppy sitting in my lap. Cop walks up and says "why didnt you stop man, we thought you were gonna run"

I said to the cop " i dont trust you anymore than you trust me, i feel safer stopping in a well lit area"

cop originally was stopping me for doing 50 in a 35, they talked to me for a minute, pet my puppy, commended me on my stopping etiquette and sent me on my way with no ticket.

the type of cop that is the reason i do not trust cops would have been offended by my actions. If you're offended by my caution, that makes me even more cautious.

Quote:

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Originally Posted by Sinfix_15

Nothing guarantees that you will not be "killed in the street", but having a gun puts my life in my own hands. Sitting behind a desk, behind a door, in a building surrounded by armed security, politicians think they have the right to strip you of your ability to defend yourself and tell you to rely on the police for your protection. You're right.... a gun will not prevent you from being killed in the street, neither will a cop.... or a "gun free zone" sign.....

It's not about guns preventing crimes, it's about each individual person having the right to defend themselves.

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How can you say "a gun will not prevent you from being killed in the street" and "having a gun puts my life in my own hands". Those are contradictory. More often than not, a gun provides people with the illusion of security, not actual security. Guns can prevent violence but they can also cause it. I think people should be allowed to own guns, including assault rifles, but I believe statistics show it won't make them any safer.

Quote:

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Originally Posted by Sinfix_15

I apply the same rule to everyone...... one night i was coming home late and a cop turned his light on me on a back road, i put my flashers on, slowed down and drove about 5 miles to the nearest gas station to pull over. By the time i got to the gas station i had 3 cars behind me. The cops probably would have approached my car guns drawn, but since i always do the right hand up, left hand out the window thing, they approached somewhat normal. It also helped that i also had a puppy sitting in my lap. Cop walks up and says "why didnt you stop man, we thought you were gonna run"

I said to the cop " i dont trust you anymore than you trust me, i feel safer stopping in a well lit area"

cop originally was stopping me for doing 50 in a 35, they talked to me for a minute, pet my puppy, commended me on my stopping etiquette and sent me on my way with no ticket.

the type of cop that is the reason i do not trust cops would have been offended by my actions. If you're offended by my caution, that makes me even more cautious.

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Do you think that your life is better with an isolationist ideology?

I can say this - if I had your outlook, I would not have my wife, kids, job, friends, or toys. All of these came from expressly embracing other cultures and viewpoints.

Quote:

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Originally Posted by Sinfix_15

I apply the same rule to everyone......

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My question is, how does your distrust of Muslims manifest itself? A cop has authority over you in certain situations (e.g., pulling you over) so I understand that scenario. But given that being Muslim doesn't give them any authority over you, what actions do you take based on your fear? Do you think your fear is justified given the miniscule probability of you being the victim of a radical muslim's attack? Do you treat other threats with similar likelihoods the same way?

Quote:

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Originally Posted by bu villain

How can you say "a gun will not prevent you from being killed in the street" and "having a gun puts my life in my own hands". Those are contradictory. More often than not, a gun provides people with the illusion of security, not actual security. Guns can prevent violence but they can also cause it. I think people should be allowed to own guns, including assault rifles, but I believe statistics show it won't make them any safer.

---

Putting a hammer in your hand is no guarantee that you can build a house with it. A gun is a tool i can use to defend myself. Possessing that tool doesnt guarantee my success with it. However i chose to defend myself puts my life in my own hands. If i chose to use karate, my personal charm, a financial bribe... a stick... ect ect.... having the choice to fight back puts "my life in my own hands". It doesnt guarantee that i will be victorious.

If you chose to believe "statistics" that say a gun wont make you any safer.... that's your choice to be an idiot, you are free to make that choice.

Quote:

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Originally Posted by bu villain

How can you say "a gun will not prevent you from being killed in the street" and "having a gun puts my life in my own hands". Those are contradictory.

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I disagree - they are not contradictory.
Having a gun does not guarantee that one will not be killed by a gun or other means; however, it does mean that you have an opportunity to resist with a defensive weapon that should generally be on par with an aggressor's weapon. It can help you prevent being a defenseless victim in man circumstances and scenarios - but that is not the same as ALL circumstances and scenarios.

Quote:

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Originally Posted by bu villain

More often than not, a gun provides people with the illusion of security, not actual security. Guns can prevent violence but they can also cause it. I think people should be allowed to own guns, including assault rifles, but I believe statistics show it won't make them any safer.

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I agree with this part. Guns are merely a tool - the individual must have the capability and judgment to know when to use the correct tool - and when to leave it alone.

Quote:

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Originally Posted by bu villain

My question is, how does your distrust of Muslims manifest itself? A cop has authority over you in certain situations (e.g., pulling you over) so I understand that scenario. But given that being Muslim doesn't give them any authority over you, what actions do you take based on your fear? Do you think your fear is justified given the miniscule probability of you being the victim of a radical muslim's attack? Do you treat other threats with similar likelihoods the same way?

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Good questions.

Quote:

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Originally Posted by Sinfix_15

If you chose to believe "statistics" that say a gun wont make you any safer.... that's your choice to be an idiot, you are free to make that choice.

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I disagree with you that choosing not to have a gun is equitable with being an idiot.

The need for the tool depends on the situation and location.
For example, where I live, the likelihood that I will need a firearm to defend myself against a terrorist or anyone else is an extremely small risk. I do not see a need to carry a firearm with me when I go grocery shopping, or to get gas, or anything else around my home. I choose to live in a fairly safe area, that has a fairly low crime rate; therefore, I do not see the need to carry a gun with me on a daily basis. If one feels the need to carry on a daily basis, they might want to assess their location and actions, and find a way to lower their risk level.

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Originally Posted by David88vert

Do you think that your life is better with an isolationist ideology?

I can say this - if I had your outlook, I would not have my wife, kids, job, friends, or toys. All of these came from expressly embracing other cultures and viewpoints.

---

It's not isolationism..... i dont avoid anyone or any activity. I just chose to be more aware of dangers. I'm OCD about being aware of my surroundings. It's not something you would notice or something i bring to anyone's attention in public. I can be sitting at a bar drinking and laughing and i just subconsciously make a note of where exits are, if someone has their hands in their pockets or is reaching for something, if someone is eyeballing someone... just any little thing like that i observe and think about. I do it every day at every place i go.

Lets say i'm jogging at the park and 5 black guys are walking in my path towards me. in my mind i start scanning the scenario, are they wearing sportswear? do they look like they belong in the area, is anyone of them paying too much attention to me, do they look like they have anything in their pockets, anyone reaching in their pockets, are they talking to each other, do they look like theyre going to speak to me... ect ect....

My reaction to that situation might be as simple as moving to the side of the path or saying something to them before theyre close to me like "hey guys, hows it goin" then based on their response i might re-evaluate again. Did they notice me moving to the side of the path, if so did they adjust their path, when i spoke out did they react in an unusual way....

This is just how my mind works. I cant turn it off. I dont isolate myself from any group of people or activity. I go to inner city parks and play basketball, go to the riverwalk, camp grounds or anywhere else i want to go.... i'm just always "aware" of what's around me. Some things get my attention more than others.


One of these people alarms me more than the other. If that's wrong, i dont want to be right.
http://bossip.files.wordpress.com/20...pg?w=450&h=317
http://comp.webstockpro.com/iloveimages/lv14520054.jpg

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Originally Posted by David88vert

I disagree with you that choosing not to have a gun is equitable with being an idiot.

The need for the tool depends on the situation and location.
For example, where I live, the likelihood that I will need a firearm to defend myself against a terrorist or anyone else is an extremely small risk. I do not see a need to carry a firearm with me when I go grocery shopping, or to get gas, or anything else around my home. I choose to live in a fairly safe area, that has a fairly low crime rate; therefore, I do not see the need to carry a gun with me on a daily basis. If one feels the need to carry on a daily basis, they might want to assess their location and actions, and find a way to lower their risk level.

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I agree.... slight misinterpretation of what i said..... "If you chose to believe the statistic" regarding your own safety.....

My evaluation of what is needed to defend myself is based on my observation of risk alone. I dont care what statistics say about my city if i feel unsafe.

Quote:

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Originally Posted by bu villain

My question is, how does your distrust of Muslims manifest itself? A cop has authority over you in certain situations (e.g., pulling you over) so I understand that scenario. But given that being Muslim doesn't give them any authority over you, what actions do you take based on your fear? Do you think your fear is justified given the miniscule probability of you being the victim of a radical muslim's attack? Do you treat other threats with similar likelihoods the same way?

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I think i answered this question before i realized you asked it. If not, i will reiterate.

Quote:

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Originally Posted by Sinfix_15

Putting a hammer in your hand is no guarantee that you can build a house with it. A gun is a tool i can use to defend myself. Possessing that tool doesnt guarantee my success with it. However i chose to defend myself puts my life in my own hands. If i chose to use karate, my personal charm, a financial bribe... a stick... ect ect.... having the choice to fight back puts "my life in my own hands". It doesnt guarantee that i will be victorious.

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As you state, you can fight back without a gun which is why I was questioning your previous statement that having a gun allows you to "put your life in your own hands" as if not having a gun means your life is suddenly out of your own hands. Obviously a gun can be a powerful self defense tool, I just don't like it being paraded around as a magic wand that stops crime and prevents violence. It would also be great if you would acknowledge the negative possibilities of guns even if you believe the positives outweigh them.

Quote:

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Originally Posted by Sinfix_15

If you chose to believe "statistics" that say a gun wont make you any safer.... that's your choice to be an idiot, you are free to make that choice.

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Why does that make me an idiot? Perhaps I have not seen the same statistics as you. Perhaps you could link me to some so that I can reconsider my position. Keep in mind, my support of gun ownership is based on principle and not safety but if the statistics back up that principle then all the better.

Quote:

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Originally Posted by David88vert

I disagree - they are not contradictory.
Having a gun does not guarantee that one will not be killed by a gun or other means; however, it does mean that you have an opportunity to resist with a defensive weapon that should generally be on par with an aggressor's weapon. It can help you prevent being a defenseless victim in man circumstances and scenarios - but that is not the same as ALL circumstances and scenarios.

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If Sinflix had made that distinction I wouldn't have said anything but his wording implied that without a gun, you are no longer in control of your life. It's often his hyperbole and one sided presentation that causes me problems, even when I agree to some extent with his basic idea.

Quote:

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Originally Posted by Sinfix_15

I agree.... slight misinterpretation of what i said..... "If you chose to believe the statistic" regarding your own safety.....

My evaluation of what is needed to defend myself is based on my observation of risk alone. I dont care what statistics say about my city if i feel unsafe.

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So you are saying having a gun makes you feel safer psychologically.

Quote:

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Originally Posted by Sinfix_15

I think i answered this question before i realized you asked it. If not, i will reiterate.

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You answered most of it but I do want to mention that a random Muslim person on the street is thousands of times more likely to be a threat on the level with the bottom picture than the top one. So the only question I would still like to hear your answer about is... is your level of fear/awareness of Muslims, proportional to the likelihood that they cause harm to you?

Sorry I lied, a follow up set of questions. How do you even know if someone is Muslim? If you saw the black guy who murdered the soldier in London, would you have known he was Muslim? How about the Boston bombers? Do you think someone wearing traditional Muslim clothing is more likely to cause you harm than someone who is not?

Quote:

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Originally Posted by Sinfix_15

One of these people alarms me more than the other. If that's wrong, i dont want to be right.
http://bossip.files.wordpress.com/20...pg?w=450&h=317
http://comp.webstockpro.com/iloveimages/lv14520054.jpg

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Obviously, the black guy is no one to worry about. He is a "Genius", and has been gracious enough to tattoo it on his forehead so that people with lesser intellects will realize it and not be afraid of him just because he is black.

The woman with the baby is the one that you should be concerned about. She will divorce you and take more than half your stuff.

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Originally Posted by bu villain

As you state, you can fight back without a gun which is why I was questioning your previous statement that having a gun allows you to "put your life in your own hands" as if not having a gun means your life is suddenly out of your own hands. Obviously a gun can be a powerful self defense tool, I just don't like it being paraded around as a magic wand that stops crime and prevents violence. It would also be great if you would acknowledge the negative possibilities of guns even if you believe the positives outweigh them.



Why does that make me an idiot? Perhaps I have not seen the same statistics as you. Perhaps you could link me to some so that I can reconsider my position. Keep in mind, my support of gun ownership is based on principle and not safety but if the statistics back up that principle then all the better.



If Sinflix had made that distinction I wouldn't have said anything but his wording implied that without a gun, you are no longer in control of your life. It's often his hyperbole and one sided presentation that causes me problems, even when I agree to some extent with his basic idea.

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I'll use this example. Lets say you work at a GM auto plant that employs 2000 people. The injury rate is pretty low, lets say only 2 people get injured a year. Would GM stop doing safety training or project the idea that you're safe at work because only 2 people got injured? Statistically, you would have less than a 1% chance of being injured, right?

My approach to that is that even if something bad only happens to 1 person in the entire world, that 1 person could be me and i want to prevent it. No statistic is "the bible" for my decision making process. I consider statistics, but also recognize their flaw.

Quote:

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Originally Posted by Sinfix_15

I'll use this example. Lets say you work at a GM auto plant that employs 2000 people. The injury rate is pretty low, lets say only 2 people get injured a year. Would GM stop doing safety training or project the idea that you're safe at work because only 2 people got injured? Statistically, you would have less than a 1% chance of being injured, right?

My approach to that is that even if something bad only happens to 1 person in the entire world, that 1 person could be me and i want to prevent it. No statistic is "the bible" for my decision making process. I consider statistics, but also recognize their flaw.

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Yes but your GM example is only true because it's hard to believe safety training could lead to more injuries. Guns on the other hand do not have such an asymmetrical safety profile. They can make you safer in some situations and less safe in others. I agree statistics must be put in an individuals context to be used effectively. This is the point David was making regarding living in a relatively dangerous area versus a relatively safe area. Public policy however should be more influenced by statistics than by individual circumstances because it is unfeasible to create laws that handle all the intricacies of individual circumstances. It is still an imperfect approach but it is far better than basing policy on anecdotes.

Quote:

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Originally Posted by bu villain

So you are saying having a gun makes you feel safer psychologically.



You answered most of it but I do want to mention that a random Muslim person on the street is thousands of times more likely to be a threat on the level with the bottom picture than the top one. So the only question I would still like to hear your answer about is... is your level of fear/awareness of Muslims, proportional to the likelihood that they cause harm to you?

Sorry I lied, a follow up set of questions. How do you even know if someone is Muslim? If you saw the black guy who murdered the soldier in London, would you have known he was Muslim? How about the Boston bombers? Do you think someone wearing traditional Muslim clothing is more likely to cause you harm than someone who is not?

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My methods are not scientific nor foolproof. The context of the encounter would have a lot to do with it. "how do i even know if someone is a muslim" i dont... appearance wise i would associate it with looking "middle eastern". If i walk into a store and see someone with a turban on, my reaction isnt "OMG HES GOT A BOMB". I might give someone who fits that description a 2nd glance.... if they looked wide eyed, lost, nervous or out of place... that would be something that got my attention. Hard to say with the boston bombers, people's mannerisms are easier to gauge in person. I would like to think had i of been one of the people standing near them, i would have noticed them dropping their packs.

Muslim does not have an identifiable trait that i am aware of. I pay more attention to anyone who "sticks out", if upon paying more attention to any given person, they act unusual or look sketchy, my reaction to them escalates from that point. That doesnt mean i intervene with anyone, i may simply alter my path. If i'm standing at a bus stop and two middle eastern men who appear nervous and/or agitated are waiting for the bus, i would pay more attention to them. If theyre carrying backpacks or unidentifiable objects, i may decide not to get on that bus. I'm not going to tackle them and search their backpack, but i have the freedom to make my own choices and be as "paranoid" as i chose to be. My actions do not interfere with anyone else's life. If my opinion of someone offends them, really dont give a fuck.

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Originally Posted by bu villain

Yes but your GM example is only true because it's hard to believe safety training could lead to more injuries. Guns on the other hand do not have such an asymmetrical safety profile. They can make you safer in some situations and less safe in others. I agree statistics must be put in an individuals context to be used effectively. This is the point David was making regarding living in a relatively dangerous area versus a relatively safe area. Public policy however should be more influenced by statistics than by individual circumstances because it is unfeasible to create laws that handle all the intricacies of individual circumstances. It is still an imperfect approach but it is far better than basing policy on anecdotes.

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This is where you and i are different. You feel, basically... that the government should "do the best it can" with some laws... and i feel that the government should simply step away from some laws. My right to self defense and survival is not open to legislation.

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Originally Posted by Sinfix_15

My right to self defense and survival is not open to legislation.

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It isn't. Nor is it up for legislation.

Quote:

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Originally Posted by Sinfix_15

"how do i even know if someone is a muslim" i dont... appearance wise i would associate it with looking "middle eastern"

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And hopefully you see that as the more you generalize, the less relation your generalization has to reality. There are a billion muslims in the world, they come in many colors, and from many different countries. Only a tiny fraction of them pose any sort of a threat to you. And yet you will be more suspicious of people who look middle eastern simply because that is an association you make in your mind. These sort of associations may be natural to the human mind, but that doesn't make them valid.

Quote:

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Originally Posted by Sinfix_15

i have the freedom to make my own choices and be as "paranoid" as i chose to be. My actions do not interfere with anyone else's life. If my opinion of someone offends them, really dont give a fuck.

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And that's fine as long as you understand it is paranoia and not particularly rational. Unfortunately many people's irrational fear of all muslims/middle easterners does have an impact on others lives.

Quote:

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Originally Posted by Sinfix_15

This is where you and i are different. You feel, basically... that the government should "do the best it can" with some laws... and i feel that the government should simply step away from some laws. My right to self defense and survival is not up for legislation.

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This is the kind of hyperbole I was talking about before. Saying you can't buy an assault rifle or an extended clip is not legislating away your right to self defense. You still have sticks, karate, hand guns, and all those other things to mentioned before. Again, I actually agree with you that we shouldn't legislate clip size or whether a rifle has a handle or not but it's just for different reasons than you.

Quote:

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Originally Posted by bu villain

And hopefully you see that as the more you generalize, the less relation your generalization has to reality. There are a billion muslims in the world, they come in many colors, and from many different countries. Only a tiny fraction of them pose any sort of a threat to you. And yet you will be more suspicious of people who look middle eastern simply because that is an association you make in your mind. These sort of associations may be natural to the human mind, but that doesn't make them valid.

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And some of those muslims have decided to kill 1000s of americans. They do it proudly, openly and with little regard for human life. You acknowledge that i cant distinguish between the good and the bad, yet you tell me to assume theyre all good and then proclaim it's logical.

Quote:

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Originally Posted by bu villain

And that's fine as long as you understand it is paranoia and not particularly rational. Unfortunately many people's irrational fear of all muslims/middle easterners does have an impact on others lives.

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I cant control the world, i can only control myself. Hurting a stranger's feelings just isnt high on my priority list, apologies. Paranoia is not the right word. I do not fear them, nor am i delusional about the presence of danger. Being aware of risk does not mean that i exaggerate it.

Quote:

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Originally Posted by bu villain

This is the kind of hyperbole I was talking about before. Saying you can't buy an assault rifle or an extended clip is not legislating away your right to self defense. You still have sticks, karate, hand guns, and all those other things to mentioned before. Again, I actually agree with you that we shouldn't legislate clip size or whether a rifle has a handle or not but it's just for different reasons than you.

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It's my choice. Saying i cant have my choice of self defense is legislating my right to self defense away.

Quote:

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Originally Posted by Sinfix_15

And some of those muslims have decided to kill 1000s of americans. They do it proudly, openly and with little regard for human life. You acknowledge that i cant distinguish between the good and the bad, yet you tell me to assume theyre all good and then proclaim it's logical.

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You shouldn't assume anything because not only can you not distinguish the good from the bad but you admitted you can't distinguish muslim from non-muslim so it's illogical that you say it is a factor you consider at all. It's like a blind person saying they are suspicious of blonde people. Not one of the terrorists who carried out an attack in the US was wearing muslim clothing when they committed their crime and some of them were not middle eastern looking so it is illogical to use that as evidence of a threat. I don't see a logical reason to assume middle eastern looking people are any more of a threat than any other kind of person and as far as I can tell.

Quote:

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Originally Posted by Sinfix_15

I cant control the world, i can only control myself. Hurting a stranger's feelings just isnt high on my priority list, apologies. Paranoia is not the right word. I do not fear them, nor am i delusional about the presence of danger. Being aware of risk does not mean that i exaggerate it.

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I don't care if you hurt their feelings either. You're right that being aware of the risk doesn't mean you exaggerate it. But assessing risk based on characteristics that are not significantly correlated with their danger to you is.

Quote:

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Originally Posted by Sinfix_15

It's my choice. Saying i cant have my choice of self defense is legislating my right to self defense away.

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No, it is limiting one method of self defense but that is quite different than not being able to defend yourself. If someone punches you in the face, you can't say, "Well I don't have my gun so therefore I can't defend myself". Do your first amendment rights no longer exist because you can't commit libel?

Quote:

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Originally Posted by Sinfix_15

And some of those muslims have decided to kill 1000s of americans. They do it proudly, openly and with little regard for human life. You acknowledge that i cant distinguish between the good and the bad, yet you tell me to assume theyre all good and then proclaim it's logical.

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So, since christians have also committed atrocities against people, based on your logic, its logical and normal for me to be suspicious of anyone who looks like a Protestant Christian? Anyone who looks white with brown or blonde hair? Should I be at a heightened level of awareness when around them?

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Saying i cant have my choice of self defense is legislating my right to self defense away.

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How do you figure this?

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Originally Posted by bu villain

You shouldn't assume anything because not only can you not distinguish the good from the bad but you admitted you can't distinguish muslim from non-muslim so it's illogical that you say it is a factor you consider at all. It's like a blind person saying they are suspicious of blonde people. Not one of the terrorists who carried out an attack in the US was wearing muslim clothing when they committed their crime and some of them were not middle eastern looking so it is illogical to use that as evidence of a threat. I don't see a logical reason to assume middle eastern looking people are any more of a threat than any other kind of person and as far as I can tell.

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If i dont know the difference between a harmless sand shark and a tiger shark, that is not reason for me to believe sharks are harmless. When dealing with the unknown or undecided, i do not lean towards expecting the best scenario. The risk of assuming the best is often a lot more severe than assuming the worst. Wearing a "fuck the police" shirt and having "gangster" tattooed on your forehead doesnt make you any more dangerous either.... but i am free to draw my own conclusions when confronted by a person who fits that description. I am saying this as a person covered in tattoos who might actually wear the "fuck the police" shirt....

Quote:

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Originally Posted by bu villain

I don't care if you hurt their feelings either. You're right that being aware of the risk doesn't mean you exaggerate it. But assessing risk based on characteristics that are not significantly correlated with their danger to you is.

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Radical muslims are significantly correlated with danger. Radical muslims openly express a desire to create chaos. I'm not making it up..... im taking their word for it. I cant tell the difference between a radical muslim and a peaceful muslim. I adjust my caution based on that understanding.

Quote:

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Originally Posted by bu villain

No, it is limiting one method of self defense but that is quite different than not being able to defend yourself. If someone punches you in the face, you can't say, "Well I don't have my gun so therefore I can't defend myself". Do your first amendment rights no longer exist because you can't commit libel?

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So if i punch your grand mother in the face, she has adequate means of self defense since she has two arms the same as i do?? Humans do not rely on our physical ability in any aspect of life. What separates us from animals and puts us at the top of the food chain is our engineering ability. Stripping me of that engineering is the same as de-clawing a lion.... you are limiting my ability to defend myself. A guy i used to go to the gym with was a navy seal, boxer, just all around bad ass.... one day at the gym someone noticed that he had a gun in his gym bag when he was putting his clothes up. They asked him "why do you even bother carrying a gun, probably anybody you ever came in contact with you could just kick their ass" , the guy responded " i dont fight in the street, i fight for fun, it's a hobby... but when it comes to protecting myself or family, i carry a gun"

It's not for you decide how i should defend myself. I dont want to force anyone to carry a gun. If you're a "bad ass" and feel you dont need one... more power to you... i'll also decide how i chose to defend myself.

Quote:

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Originally Posted by .blank cd

So, since christians have also committed atrocities against people, based on your logic, its logical and normal for me to be suspicious of anyone who looks like a Protestant Christian? Anyone who looks white with brown or blonde hair? Should I be at a heightened level of awareness when around them?

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I dont have reservations about muslims based on something they did 1000 years ago. It's about what they did yesterday.... today.... or will do tomorrow.

I observe christians the same way as i do anyone else. I have an expectation for them when i interact with them in public. They do not alarm me as a threat to my safety, but i am aware of characteristics that follow them.

Id be significantly alarmed by a christian who dressed like this.....

http://t2.gstatic.com/images?q=tbn:A...WMb2vpebcy7hUA

Quote:

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Originally Posted by Sinfix_15

I dont have reservations about muslims based on something they did 1000 years ago. It's about what they did yesterday.... today.... or will do tomorrow.

I observe christians the same way as i do anyone else. I have an expectation for them when i interact with them in public. They do not alarm me as a threat to my safety, but i am aware of characteristics that follow them.

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They don't alarm you. Even when they bomb abortion clinics, level half of a federal building with people in it, systematically exterminate millions of people who weren't white with blonde hair and blue eyes, force young women into marriage, make armies out of children, and get on an national stage and tell everyone they should live by Christian values?

Quote:

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Originally Posted by .blank cd

They don't alarm you. Even when they bomb abortion clinics, level half of a federal building with people in it, systematically exterminate millions of people who weren't white with blonde hair and blue eyes, force young women into marriage, make armies out of children, and get on an national stage and tell everyone they should live by Christian values?

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Institutionally.... yes... i am very alarmed by christians. Their political influence and power should always be limited. Unlike muslims...... i am capable of distinguishing to some degree the differences in christian followings and understand which ones are worthy of increased scrutiny. I recognize that i know little of muslims or muslim faith..... more of a reason to err on the side of caution.

I am an atheist..... that choice wasnt made because i dont like gospel music.

Quote:

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Originally Posted by Sinfix_15

Iam capable of distinguishing to some degree the differences in christian followings and understand which ones are worthy of increased scrutiny. I recognize that i know little of muslims or muslim faith..... more of a reason to err on the side of caution.

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How are you capable of distinguishing the differences in the Christian faith in public? Because underneath the masks, this guy......

http://assets.nydailynews.com/polopo...kk9n-1-web.jpg

Looks like this guy...

http://www.jenesismagazine.com/wp-co.../white_guy.jpg

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Originally Posted by .blank cd

How are you capable of distinguishing the differences in the Christian faith in public? Because underneath the masks, this guy......

http://assets.nydailynews.com/polopo...kk9n-1-web.jpg

Looks like this guy...

http://www.jenesismagazine.com/wp-co.../white_guy.jpg

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I react to the masks when i see them and observe any clues that are present. I said before.... no method is foolproof.
http://4.bp.blogspot.com/-xqmuZ98SPI...11_468x310.jpg


Sometimes taking someone at face value is a mistake.... there's no 100% method of avoiding this mistake.

perfect example of taking someone at face value gone horribly wrong.....
http://t1.gstatic.com/images?q=tbn:A...bUOXp2oda4W56b

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Originally Posted by Sinfix_15

If i dont know the difference between a harmless sand shark and a tiger shark, that is not reason for me to believe sharks are harmless. When dealing with the unknown or undecided, i do not lean towards expecting the best scenario. The risk of assuming the best is often a lot more severe than assuming the worst. Wearing a "fuck the police" shirt and having "gangster" tattooed on your forehead doesnt make you any more dangerous either.... but i am free to draw my own conclusions when confronted by a person who fits that description. I am saying this as a person covered in tattoos who might actually wear the "fuck the police" shirt....

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Yes you are free to draw your own conclusions and I am not denying you that. I am just saying that you are about as likely to be harmed by a muslim as by anyone else so if you are more suspicious of people who look middle eastern than any other random person on the street, that is illogical. Can you be illogical? Sure! Just don't say your suspicion is based on a realistic threat assessment rather than some amorphous gut feeling.

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Originally Posted by Sinfix_15

Radical muslims are significantly correlated with danger. Radical muslims openly express a desire to create chaos. I'm not making it up..... im taking their word for it. I cant tell the difference between a radical muslim and a peaceful muslim. I adjust my caution based on that understanding.

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And as soon as you can determine who is a radical muslim with any sort of reliability, I will support your increased suspicion.

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Originally Posted by Sinfix_15

So if i punch your grand mother in the face, she has adequate means of self defense since she has two arms the same as i do?? Humans do not rely on our physical ability in any aspect of life. What separates us from animals and puts us at the top of the food chain is our engineering ability. Stripping me of that engineering is the same as de-clawing a lion.... you are limiting my ability to defend myself.

It's not for you decide how i should defend myself. I dont want to force anyone to carry a gun. If you're a "bad ass" and feel you dont need one... more power to you... i'll also decide how i chose to defend myself.

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Yes I agree, it is limiting your ability to defend yourself. "Limiting" is not synonymous with "taking away". There are still many "engineered" self defense solutions (mace, taser, knife, etc.) I understand you think your ability to decide how to defend yourself should be unlimited but unfortunately for you, most of our society does not agree.

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Originally Posted by bu villain

Yes you are free to draw your own conclusions and I am not denying you that. I am just saying that you are about as likely to be harmed by a muslim as by anyone else so if you are more suspicious of people who look middle eastern than any other random person on the street, that is illogical. Can you be illogical? Sure! Just don't say your suspicion is based on a realistic threat assessment rather than some amorphous gut feeling.

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What's illogical is our government ignoring tips that radical muslims are plotting a terrorist attack on american soil while simultaneously feeling the need to circumvent the constitution to spy on the press because they feel our national security depends on it. As long as i know i our government rolls out the red carpet for any foreigner from any hostile conflict nation to come here and then turns them loose without giving them a 2nd glance, i will rely on my "amorphous gut feelings" with every single individual i come in contact with.

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Originally Posted by bu villain

And as soon as you can determine who is a radical muslim with any sort of reliability, I will support your increased suspicion.

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As soon as you can determine who isnt a radical muslim with any sort of reliability, i will support your lack of suspicion.

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Originally Posted by bu villain

Yes I agree, it is limiting your ability to defend yourself. "Limiting" is not synonymous with "taking away". There are still many "engineered" self defense solutions (mace, taser, knife, etc.) I understand you think your ability to decide how to defend yourself should be unlimited but unfortunately for you, most of our society does not agree.

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And you support the mob mentality that thinks the majority should be able to vote away the rights of the minority.


"The people will not understand the importance of the 2nd amendment until its too late"

Something Obama and every other liberal democrat understands..... once your right to defend yourself is gone, your right and ability to defend your rights in general is gone. Gun control is not and never was about guns.... its about control.

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Originally Posted by Sinfix_15

What's illogical is our government ignoring tips that radical muslims are plotting a terrorist attack on american soil while simultaneously feeling the need to circumvent the constitution to spy on the press because they feel our national security depends on it. As long as i know i our government rolls out the red carpet for any foreigner from any hostile conflict nation to come here and then turns them loose without giving them a 2nd glance, i will rely on my "amorphous gut feelings" with every single individual i come in contact with.

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Government policy is irrelevant to this discussion. As of now, terrorist attacks are just about the bottom of the list for ways you will die or become seriously injured. Be worried about them if you like, but I suggest you spend more mental energy on the hundreds of threats that pose a much more significant threat. Now government policy may lead to more attacks in the future, but for now, it's simply not a major issue for living your daily life.

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Originally Posted by Sinfix_15

As soon as you can determine who isnt a radical muslim with any sort of reliability, i will support your lack of suspicion.

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Unfortunately your attempt to flip the script doesn't make much sense. Your saying I should assume everyone is a threat unless I'm sure they aren't. I would be constantly paranoid of everyone if I lived my life that way.

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Originally Posted by Sinfix_15

And you support the mob mentality that thinks the majority should be able to vote away the rights of the minority.

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If you mean representative democracy, then yes I believe in it. The world is ruled by people, not your personal belief on rights. People will always determine which rights are upheld and which aren't. Whether it should be that way or not is irrelevant.

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Originally Posted by bu villain

Government policy is irrelevant to this discussion. As of now, terrorist attacks are just about the bottom of the list for ways you will die or become seriously injured. Be worried about them if you like, but I suggest you spend more mental energy on the hundreds of threats that pose a much more significant threat. Now government policy may lead to more attacks in the future, but for now, it's simply not a major issue for living your daily life.

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Not an issue in anyone's daily life. Noted. And it is relevant to the discussion, knowing that our boarders are not secure is reason for me to be aware of possible dangers. That muslim sitting beside me on a bus might be Osama's uncle... idk...
http://media.salon.com/2013/04/bosto...g-1280x960.jpg

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Originally Posted by bu villain

Unfortunately your attempt to flip the script doesn't make much sense. Your saying I should assume everyone is a threat unless I'm sure they aren't. I would be constantly paranoid of everyone if I lived my life that way.

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You exaggerate. Paying attention is not paranoia. Based on my surroundings, sometimes i pay more attention than others. Your belief to trust people and be optimistic is equally as unwarranted as my belief to be suspicious, yet you're presenting your opinion as a fact, which is most certainly is not.

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Originally Posted by bu villain

If you mean representative democracy, then yes I believe in it. The world is ruled by people, not your personal belief on rights. People will always determine which rights are upheld and which aren't. Whether it should be that way or not is irrelevant.

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Why the hell do we get our panties all in a bunch over slavery then..... It was just representative democracy at work. The majority wanted slaves and had them, who gives a shit about the rights of slaves.... the majority voted that they didnt have any. God bless america..... bet owning slaves was nice... wish i had someone to do my lawn for free. It was right because representative democracy decided it was.

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Originally Posted by Sinfix_15

Not an issue in anyone's daily life. Noted. And it is relevant to the discussion, knowing that our boarders are not secure is reason for me to be aware of possible dangers. That muslim sitting beside me on a bus might be Osama's uncle... idk...

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It's not an issue of whether it is possible for you to be a victim of such attacks. The issue is how much mental energy should you devote to it. Your worry should be commensurate with the risk. Just because the risk is greater than 0, doesn't mean it is significant. Mama Cass died choking on a ham sandwich but I don't raise my awareness when I sit down to eat Subway. Maybe this will help... what percentage of unnatural deaths are from terrorist attacks in the US each year? Do you worry about all the more likely causes at least as much if not more than you worry about terrorist attacks?

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Originally Posted by Sinfix_15

You exaggerate. Paying attention is not paranoia. Based on my surroundings, sometimes i pay more attention than others. Your belief to trust people and be optimistic is equally as unwarranted as my belief to be suspicious, yet you're presenting your opinion as a fact, which is most certainly is not.

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Paying attention solely based on a belief that is not based on fact is paranoia. Again, I'm not saying you have to trust anyone, I'm just pointing out the illogical nature of your middle eastern mistrust. I would say people with gang tats are significantly more likely to commit violent crimes. People who won't stop staring at you as you walk down the street at night are also worthy of more suspicion. There are a lot of legitimate factors that you should be weary of, but simply being of middle eastern decent without any other warning signs just isn't worth worrying about.

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Originally Posted by Sinfix_15

Why the hell do we get our panties all in a bunch over slavery then..... It was just representative democracy at work. The majority wanted slaves and had them, who gives a shit about the rights of slaves.... the majority voted that they didnt have any. God bless america..... bet owning slaves was nice... wish i had someone to do my lawn for free. It was right because representative democracy decided it was.

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Just because we believe in the system, doesn't mean we have to agree with everything that comes out of it. You can be a proponent of driving cars without condoning drunk driving. Think of representative democracy like a gun. It's just a tool. It can be used for good or for evil.

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Originally Posted by bu villain

It's not an issue of whether it is possible for you to be a victim of such attacks. The issue is how much mental energy should you devote to it. Your worry should be commensurate with the risk. Just because the risk is greater than 0, doesn't mean it is significant. Mama Cass died choking on a ham sandwich but I don't raise my awareness when I sit down to eat Subway. Maybe this will help... what percentage of unnatural deaths are from terrorist attacks in the US each year? Do you worry about all the more likely causes at least as much if not more than you worry about terrorist attacks?

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How much "mental energy" used depends on the person. Some people cant walk and chew gun at the same time.... It's not a chore for me to evaluate situations or surroundings as they occur. I do think about chewing my sandwich when i eat it.... Just because i say i do something does not mean i am devoting a lot of time and effort to it. My routine feels natural to me.....

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Originally Posted by bu villain

Paying attention solely based on a belief that is not based on fact is paranoia. Again, I'm not saying you have to trust anyone, I'm just pointing out the illogical nature of your middle eastern mistrust. I would say people with gang tats are significantly more likely to commit violent crimes. People who won't stop staring at you as you walk down the street at night are also worthy of more suspicion. There are a lot of legitimate factors that you should be weary of, but simply being of middle eastern decent without any other warning signs just isn't worth worrying about.

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It's not based solely on their belief. I am "weary" of all factors, this is just another one on my list. If i see someone who sticks out for whatever reason, be it their ethnicity, choice of clothing, their accent or language... ect ect... i will give them a second glance. If no other red flags appear, on to the next one. Takes all of 2 seconds in my mind, nothing you would ever notice. If a middle eastern man walks into a gas station with a tense posture and sets down a backpack and walks out... i'm going to notice that. It doesnt mean i'm going to follow him around the candy isle making sure he isnt up to no good. It's just heightened awareness in general...

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Originally Posted by bu villain

Think of representative democracy like a gun. It's just a tool. It can be used for good or for evil.

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Indeed.
http://2.bp.blogspot.com/_8yBmwXW4XE...pire_obama.jpg

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Originally Posted by Sinfix_15

It's not based solely on their belief. I am "weary" of all factors, this is just another one on my list. If i see someone who sticks out for whatever reason, be it their ethnicity, choice of clothing, their accent or language... ect ect... i will give them a second glance. If no other red flags appear, on to the next one. Takes all of 2 seconds in my mind, nothing you would ever notice. If a middle eastern man walks into a gas station with a tense posture and sets down a backpack and walks out... i'm going to notice that. It doesnt mean i'm going to follow him around the candy isle making sure he isnt up to no good. It's just heightened awareness in general...

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Acting agitated, leaving bags around for no apparent reason, are certainly valid reasons to be suspicious but simply being middle eastern is not in itself a valid reason for suspicion. Based on your description, it sounds like you are only very mildly unfairly stereotyping middle easterners so I won't berate you too much more on the subject. Continue on with your general mistrust of an entire region of the world.

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Originally Posted by bu villain

Acting agitated, leaving bags around for no apparent reason, are certainly valid reasons to be suspicious but simply being middle eastern is not in itself a valid reason for suspicion. Based on your description, it sounds like you are only very mildly unfairly stereotyping middle easterners so I won't berate you too much more on the subject. Continue on with your general mistrust of an entire region of the world.

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Stereotypes are based on facts, how much emphasis you put on those facts is up to you. It is what it is. DTA.....

and for what it's worth, i trust this region of the world a lot less.....

http://upload.wikimedia.org/wikipedi...outhFacade.JPG

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Originally Posted by Sinfix_15

Stereotypes are based on facts

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What an ignorant thing to say.

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Originally Posted by .blank cd

What an ignorant thing to say.

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Do you need me to explain to you what a stereotype is?

Knock yourself out. We'll see how close it matches up with Websters definition