622whp UBERDATA tuned LSVTEC *MSPi/Turbo Dave Top Mount Manifold*

[BTEC]

This can be a very good thread as long as it is kept civil and about cars/setups. Personal attacks need to be left in the whorselounge. I have no horse in this race, I'm a wee little NA b16. I do, however, enjoy learning about all aspects of cars (H in particular) so it is always fun to see big horsepower. I would think that Spoolins car would make more power earlier as well. He has the equipment and there is obviously room for improvement. I think that with a few more parts and some additional tuning the numbers will only go up from here. Congratulations to Spoolin, Turbo Dave, Mainstream Performance, and Scotty for some awesome work and going against the odds to make a great setup in a fairly short amount of time. A+ all the way around. The real test will be on the track not the dyno so any criticism at this point is premature. Good luck to all involved. As Mainstream's mantra says, "Make Power Not Excuses."

thats the same mtr im running and im gonna kick all their asses on the track. LOL!! Well said though, i give props to MSPi, Dave, and Spoolin for buliding his own mtr and it still running. lol!!! Well see what happens soon i hope, go or blow bitch!!

[B18c1Turboed]

The dyno chart comp between b16 and gsr cams
http://www.evans-tuning.com/dynos/b16avsgsrcams.jpg
*Dotted lines represent engine set-up with b16a cams, solid lines represent engine set-up with gsr cams

the specs on car
I finally got the opportunity to do a dyno comparision between b16a and gsr cams for boost. The test was performed on a ls/vtec with stock b16a head and ls engine, aebs intake manifold and Full Race turbo kit using a gt30r. No boost controller was used, wastegate spring was 9lbs. No other changes were made to the set-up between each comparision. Both sets of cams were degree'd with FR cam gears to make the largest power gain possible, along with a/f set at 11.8:1 under boost with no ignition timing changes (when intake cam was moved, distributor was reset to 16 degrees BTDC each time

[BTEC]

The dyno chart comp between b16 and gsr cams
http://www.evans-tuning.com/dynos/b16avsgsrcams.jpg
*Dotted lines represent engine set-up with b16a cams, solid lines represent engine set-up with gsr cams

the specs on car
I finally got the opportunity to do a dyno comparision between b16a and gsr cams for boost. The test was performed on a ls/vtec with stock b16a head and ls engine, aebs intake manifold and Full Race turbo kit using a gt30r. No boost controller was used, wastegate spring was 9lbs. No other changes were made to the set-up between each comparision. Both sets of cams were degree'd with FR cam gears to make the largest power gain possible, along with a/f set at 11.8:1 under boost with no ignition timing changes (when intake cam was moved, distributor was reset to 16 degrees BTDC each time

Nice write up, ive always wondered what the real difference was. Now we need one with type r cams.

[B18c1Turboed]

And if you look at the comparrison of the b16 cams and Gsr there almost the same
http://www.angelfire.com/az3/hondawagon/B16Aspecs.html

so as i stated in a earlier comment the Gsr cams are good for about 20hp

[B18c1Turboed]

GSR vs Type R

http://is.rely.net/1-71-37478-l-38on...NBW5IbiI3A.jpg
GSR (red)
R (blue)

[BTEC]

GSR vs Type R

http://is.rely.net/1-71-37478-l-38on...NBW5IbiI3A.jpg
GSR (red)
R (blue)

i dnt know y but the firewall is block the gsr vs type r. Sucks!!
somebody summarize whats the outcome.

[B18c1Turboed]

i dnt know y but the firewall is block the gsr vs type r. Sucks!!
somebody summarize whats the outcome.

here you go
http://www.honda-tech.com/zerothread?id=1417187



Keep in mind that they did somwe other changes also so that dyno is 100% accurate!!

[anothaRRR]

Shit, I have a extra set of ITR cams...Uhm I may throw them on and see what they do...

[SPOOLIN]

well i stated im not looking to really hit 700, but yeah the 20 whp difference with the gsr cams aint much but look at the torque increase in the midrange and the horspower midrange, that shit picked up a WHOLE LOT.

[Vteckidd]

GSR vs Type R

http://is.rely.net/1-71-37478-l-38on...NBW5IbiI3A.jpg
GSR (red)
R (blue)

go read MASE's writeup. Car made almost 100whp by switching from gsr cams and a skunk2 manifold to ITR cams and aJG. Boostfed made 37whp by switching from B16 to ITR cams.

every motor is different.

[BABY J]

go read MASE's writeup. Car made almost 100whp by switching from gsr cams and a skunk2 manifold to ITR cams and aJG. Boostfed made 37whp by switching from B16 to ITR cams.

every motor is different.

Yeah, just keep in mind though that the S2 i-mani really makes power from about 7k - 10k RPMS. Hey SPOOLIN, are you spinning your motor that high??

[Vteckidd]

I just got off the phone with Charles, and there is something going on that no one realizes. We are comparing Spoolins 3rd gear dyno pull against everyone elses 4th gear pulls.

Heres something to CHEW ON:
We opted to do a 4th gear pull towards the end but his clutch gave out an slipped. here is the half pull, you can see how much quicker it spools VS his 622 3rd gear pull-


Now for comparison, here is his 2.0L motor vs Peters DYNO DAY 4th gear pull 1.8l, UP crew correct me if i am wrong, but it should be same turbo similar setup vs 2.0l.


you can see how much sooner it spools with the 4th gear pull. Im not trying to say that we are gunning for peter or anyone else, and i realize this is Peters DAILY DRIVEN motor. its not his all out race motor. But lets take the different gears into consideration.

[silviadriftr]

I just got off the phone with Charles, and there is something going on that no one realizes. We are comparing Spoolins 3rd gear dyno pull against everyone elses 4th gear pulls.

Heres something to CHEW ON:
We opted to do a 4th gear pull towards the end but his clutch gave out an slipped.

DAMN, I can't believe I forgot about that!!!!!!

[BTEC]

good job on the research MIKE JAWNZ!!

silviadrftr quick acting like u knew that. LOL!!!

[anothaRRR]

That does look alot better...That was the thing I was referring to, and everybody took offense to it...Only question is why 3rd gear and not 4th gear from the beginning, I have always done 4th gear pulls and from what I remember so has everybody I know....

[silviadriftr]

good job on the research MIKE JAWNZ!!

silviadrftr quick acting like u knew that. LOL!!!

Been sniffing too many fumes from the plasma cutter at the shop. GOTTA FIT THEM 29's DUDE!!!!!!!

[BTEC]

Been sniffing too many fumes from the plasma cutter at the shop. GOTTA FIT THEM 29's DUDE!!!!!!!

DUB CITY aint even ready for them 29's!!
lol!!

[Vteckidd]

That does look alot better...That was the thing I was referring to, and everybody took offense to it...Only question is why 3rd gear and not 4th gear from the beginning, I have always done 4th gear pulls and from what I remember so has everybody I know....

4th wouldnt hold it slipped and with the timing we were running, we didnt want to do a long extended 4th gear pull. he has no EGT gauge

[BTEC]

4th wouldnt hold it slipped and with the timing we were running, we didnt want to do a long extended 4th gear pull. he has no EGT gauge

EGT is the alternative to a wideband. Need to monitor knock sendor voltage closely when u make changes to timing. I got a ghetto way to monitor it but i dnt know if it works or not.

nebody got a car i can test it out on? lol!!!!

[silviadriftr]

EGT is the alternative to a wideband. Need to monitor knock sendor voltage closely when u make changes to timing. I got a ghetto way to monitor it but i dnt know if it works or not.

nebody got a car i can test it out on? lol!!!!

What? Run it up till it blows and then say after the motor is a melted assembly of metal, See, this is how much timing you can safely run. LOL!!!!!!!!

[BABY J]

EGT is the alternative to a wideband. Need to monitor knock sendor voltage closely when u make changes to timing. I got a ghetto way to monitor it but i dnt know if it works or not.

nebody got a car i can test it out on? lol!!!!

I will volunteer a ride for you...




Let me know if you think you can tune it... I need it corner-weighted too to dial in the suspension as well. I can go by 4 Wal-Mart bathroom scales that you can use.

Baby J

[silviadriftr]

I will volunteer a ride for you...




Let me know if you think you can tune it... I need it corner-weighted too to dial in the suspension as well. I can go by 4 Wal-Mart bathroom scales that you can use.

Baby J

Talk about being aerodynamically challenged. You may find the car is a little right side heavy when you corner weight it!!!!!LOL...

[B18c1Turboed]

PER MIKE:
Now for comparison, here is his 2.0L motor vs Peters DYNO DAY 4th gear pull 1.8l, UP crew correct me if i am wrong, but it should be same turbo similar setup vs 2.0l.


Ok on the white car peter is Running the HO turbo which is known to be laggier than the regular t3/t67. And not they wouldnt be the same peter is running a 1.8 vs a 2.0 how is that the same? I know the comp housing Matt is running is a 0.82a/r that dont make it a HO turbo, just my opnion!!

[silviadriftr]

PER MIKE:
Now for comparison, here is his 2.0L motor vs Peters DYNO DAY 4th gear pull 1.8l, UP crew correct me if i am wrong, but it should be same turbo similar setup vs 2.0l.


Ok on the white car peter is Running the HO turbo which is known to be laggier than the regular t3/t67. And not they wouldnt be the same peter is running a 1.8 vs a 2.0 how is that the same? I know the comp housing Matt is running is a 0.82a/r that dont make it a HO turbo, just my opnion!!

Are you saying that Matt's car would not have made more power sooner in a 4th gear pull? I see the difference in the setups and the diffence in the turbo's that you describe but also was under the impression that a 4th gear pull is where the most power can be made thats why most people do a 4th gear pull instead of a third gear.

[SPOOLIN]

PER MIKE:
Now for comparison, here is his 2.0L motor vs Peters DYNO DAY 4th gear pull 1.8l, UP crew correct me if i am wrong, but it should be same turbo similar setup vs 2.0l.


Ok on the white car peter is Running the HO turbo which is known to be laggier than the regular t3/t67. And not they wouldnt be the same peter is running a 1.8 vs a 2.0 how is that the same? I know the comp housing Matt is running is a 0.82a/r that dont make it a HO turbo, just my opnion!!

THERE IS ONLY 1 Difference between my turbo and the H.O. and its the p trim wheel which correct me if i am wrong usually is a slightly laggier wheel.

[BTEC]

I will volunteer a ride for you...




Let me know if you think you can tune it... I need it corner-weighted too to dial in the suspension as well. I can go by 4 Wal-Mart bathroom scales that you can use.

Baby J

i dnt tune suspension but if i did, those scales are perfect. i used tohe digital ones on my car. LOL!!!!

[BABY J]

Are you saying that Matt's car would not have made more power sooner in a 4th gear pull? I see the difference in the setups and the diffence in the turbo's that you describe but also was under the impression that a 4th gear pull is where the most power can be made thats why most people do a 4th gear pull instead of a third gear.

As taken from:

http://www.sportcompactcarweb.com/e...c_technobabble/

PS: you can also look here: http://www.bristoldyno.com/info/procedure.htm



Different Gears
Back in the May, 1998 Technobabble, I dyno tested a Sentra SE-R in every different gear. Second, third and fourth were very similar, but first and fifth were quite a bit lower. Testing a car in either first or fifth is a little odd, and would probably be noticed by the car owner if they were observing the test. The differences are much more significant on a turbocharged car, though, as the higher gears slow the engine's acceleration and allow the turbo to spool up earlier and stronger. If you do a second gear pull with a turbocharged car, the engine will often outrun the turbo--by the time the turbo is spinning fast enough to make boost at 3000 rpm, for example, the engine will already be going 4000 rpm; by the time the turbo is fast enough for 4000, the engine is at 5000.

This is why turbocharged cars feel so strong in higher gears when pulling up a hill, or whenever they are heavily loaded. If you compare a turbocharged pull made in second gear to a pull made in fourth, the fourth gear run will almost always be stronger. We typically dyno naturally aspirated cars in third gear, and turbocharged cars in fourth. Another difference that can occur with gearing comes when there is a 1:1 gear ratio available. Most rear-wheel drive gearboxes will have a gear that is 1:1--typically this is fourth gear, but in six-speed gearboxes it is often fifth. In the 1:1 gear in many gearboxes, power is not actually transferred through a gearset; the input and output shafts are just locked together. This eliminates the losses through the gear teeth, and results in a higher power output in that gear.

[Vteckidd]

PER MIKE:
Now for comparison, here is his 2.0L motor vs Peters DYNO DAY 4th gear pull 1.8l, UP crew correct me if i am wrong, but it should be same turbo similar setup vs 2.0l.


Ok on the white car peter is Running the HO turbo which is known to be laggier than the regular t3/t67. And not they wouldnt be the same peter is running a 1.8 vs a 2.0 how is that the same? I know the comp housing Matt is running is a 0.82a/r that dont make it a HO turbo, just my opnion!!

see what i bolded

Peters was a 1.8l with stock head, im not sure on camshafts, rods and pistons, and a similar manifold and turbo.

i was merely comparing POWERBAND, not peak whp. What i was saying was that if we show a 4th gear pull vs peters 4th gear pull, we see that it was spooling FASTER than peters, and was on par to make ALOT more power than what peter made THAT DAY. and i would expect so, Spoolins is a 2.0l and peters was a 1.8l. I would like to see peters 700+whp dyno out of his 2.0l graphed over Spoolins , that would give us a great comparison of gear vs gear and spool vs spool.

Peters is the only B series 600whp dyno i have to compare against, thats why i used it. im just saying the "laggy " powerband argument is based on incorrect data. When i post the 4th gear pull from spoolin vs his 622whp 3rd gear pull and peters 4th gear pull , it is evident that we were comparing apples to oranges.

had his clutch held, it would have made 630-650 i bet money on it. that would have been a better powerband and the spool would have been faster, which is evident.

[silviadriftr]

As taken from:

http://www.sportcompactcarweb.com/e...c_technobabble/

PS: you can also look here: http://www.bristoldyno.com/info/procedure.htm



Different Gears
Back in the May, 1998 Technobabble, I dyno tested a Sentra SE-R in every different gear. Second, third and fourth were very similar, but first and fifth were quite a bit lower. Testing a car in either first or fifth is a little odd, and would probably be noticed by the car owner if they were observing the test. The differences are much more significant on a turbocharged car, though, as the higher gears slow the engine's acceleration and allow the turbo to spool up earlier and stronger. If you do a second gear pull with a turbocharged car, the engine will often outrun the turbo--by the time the turbo is spinning fast enough to make boost at 3000 rpm, for example, the engine will already be going 4000 rpm; by the time the turbo is fast enough for 4000, the engine is at 5000.

This is why turbocharged cars feel so strong in higher gears when pulling up a hill, or whenever they are heavily loaded. If you compare a turbocharged pull made in second gear to a pull made in fourth, the fourth gear run will almost always be stronger. We typically dyno naturally aspirated cars in third gear, and turbocharged cars in fourth. Another difference that can occur with gearing comes when there is a 1:1 gear ratio available. Most rear-wheel drive gearboxes will have a gear that is 1:1--typically this is fourth gear, but in six-speed gearboxes it is often fifth. In the 1:1 gear in many gearboxes, power is not actually transferred through a gearset; the input and output shafts are just locked together. This eliminates the losses through the gear teeth, and results in a higher power output in that gear.

I have seen this article before but was asking if he thought it would not make a difference? I always thought that 4th gear in the transmissions were the closest you could get to a 1:1 gear ratio. thanks for the info though, it was a good article.

[B18c1Turboed]

Here is my dyno graph with the exact same turbo spoolin is runnig..Oh and mine was a 1.8 still also, on 20psi

[SPOOLIN]

I didnt want to make over 500 on 20 psi, i didnt even try. I stopped on pump at 470 20psi. also its a .82 and you have the .63 on that graph. That was your 2.0L benson sleeved build. I clearly recall you selling the 81mm and getting the 84mm CP pistons that you posted a picture of in your hand. You also told me in person it was a 2.0L. Im not saying im not wrong though, just recollecting from past times.

Damn mike that 4th gear graph changes EVERYTHING about what everyone was saying. I need to get that pimp pressure plate so i can get some 4th runs. The clutch can handle that shit, up to 700. It makes 450 at 6500 rpm verses 350 at 6500 rpm on the 3rd gear pull. haha.

[josh green]

Here is my dyno graph with the exact same turbo spoolin is runnig..Oh and mine was a 1.8 still also, on 20psi

just wandering what correction factor that graph is in, sae 1-5, std?

[SPOOLIN]

its SAE and it looks like #3

[BTLFED]

BTLFED yea i would kill yourself for driving that beat up crx that you tought was fast when it was turboed, oh yes i have meet you and know who you are,you personally have nothing to live for but IA so shoot yourself too!!!

Oh I know I have met you in person, but you also weren't being an ass like this in person either. I just don't understand why you seem to take every opportunity to just talk shit?

And I dunno where you got that my CRX is "beat up." And it was fast for what it was. I never claimed it to be the fastest thing on earth, and I never made outlandish claims that I knew it would never do. You can talk shit all you want about it, but the fact remains that I didn't build it to be the fastest thing around here. If I was going to build something ridiculous like that it wouldn't be a Honda.

[Vteckidd]

Oh I know I have met you in person, but you also weren't being an ass like this in person either. I just don't understand why you seem to take every opportunity to just talk shit?

And I dunno where you got that my CRX is "beat up." And it was fast for what it was. I never claimed it to be the fastest thing on earth, and I never made outlandish claims that I knew it would never do. You can talk shit all you want about it, but the fact remains that I didn't build it to be the fastest thing around here. If I was going to build something ridiculous like that it wouldn't be a Honda.

the question is:
was it faster than what danny was driving 8 years ago?

[93H22ACX]

here's one of the lower hp dyno i could find on peter's.. the 731 is on MPH so u wont be able to compare.

[BTLFED]

the question is:
was it faster than what danny was driving 8 years ago?

I don't even know what he drove 8 years ago hahaha

[Jdm94Coupe]

you would think that all us honda ppl would stick together and focus on the ppl saying hondas cant make power, hondas cant be fast......and the ppl that call anything with vtec rice.....

-twan

[Big Baller]

here's one of the lower hp dyno i could find on peter's.. the 731 is on MPH so u wont be able to compare.

That dyno isnt in MPH its in RPMs

[99SI]

That's also not the 731whp dyno either. Go back and reread. The other dyno where it made a little more is in MPH therefore IT wouldn't be a comparison. This dyno is in RPM's therefore a comparison can be made.