You thoughts on a f22 head + f23 block

[bigdare23]

So with you putting on a nov-vtec head then that means there isnt going to be vtec. Pointless. i think its a waste of time time and money

There's a reason why I would be going non-vtec rather than vtec

According to Bisi, the f22 head is the "BEST" flowing head Honda made. In addition, the f23 vtec has a unique exhaust port layout, so there's not a good header for it. Also, the cam selection is limited. The f22 head is Bisi's head of choice, so the cam selection is much better.

LSVtec were created because LS head didn't flow as well as Vtec heads. So I would be basically doing the same thing. When it comes to f-series, the non vtec head flows better (somebody correct me if I'm wrong).

[Vteckidd]

There's a reason why I would be going non-vtec rather than vtec

According to Bisi, the f22 head is the "BEST" flowing head Honda made. In addition, the f23 vtec has a unique exhaust port layout, so there's not a good header for it. Also, the cam selection is limited. The f22 head is Bisi's head of choice, so the cam selection is much better.

While Bisi has done some great things, he has a PhD and years of engineering behind him, as well as unlimited (or semi unlimited budget) of building race cars.

So what if an F22 head is the best flowing head around, go build a SOHC F22 motor versus my off the shelf ITR OEM motor , i guarantee i make more power for cheaper. Go take the hundreds of other B Series motors out there that make 190whp with EASE with OEM cams. Or Hell H23 VTEC motors with CAMS making 220whp. Its so EASY theres really no need to be different.

LSVtec were created because LS head didn't flow as well as Vtec heads. So I would be basically doing the same thing. When it comes to f-series, the non vtec head flows better (somebody correct me if I'm wrong).

LSVTEC wasnt invented because of Poor LS head flow, it was done because GSR Longblocks were so expensive. No one was building LS motors, everyone wanted VTEC. Problem was a GSR LONGBLOCK was $3000+ from the dealer and from importers, where LS motors were $500-1000.

So someone (Steve Rothenbueler aka Omniman) one night decided to see if he could bolt a VTEC head to the LS block and did it.

All im saying is you are looking at this:
Machine work
Bisi header $600+
Bisi Cam $200-300
Tuning
Pistons
Bearings
Headgasket
oil pump
valvetrain
F2D Kit
Mounts
axles
Assembly

Theres all kinds of stuff needed to do what you are talking about, and at the end of the day i would bet money it makes less than 170whp has a lower redline, sure it makes more TQ but any mild bolt on B16 CRX or 1.8L CRX/EF is going to roll you when your shifting at 6500-7000 and you will be severely handicapped with the gearing youll have.

I told you a long time ago, B16 swaps are $1500 TOPS, and its the best platform to start with in an EF. Hell i bought my CRX with a LSD B16 RUNNING for $2500. Sold the B16 for $900 and put a $2000 ITR longblock in it.

[bigdare23]

While Bisi has done some great things, he has a PhD and years of engineering behind him, as well as unlimited (or semi unlimited budget) of building race cars.

Thus this is true. That's why I would trust his word. His income was (is) based on how fast he goes, so if he says the f22 head is the best head Honda made, there must be something special about. Plus, the Honda scene was dominated by B-series for a long time (until the K-series became ready available), so not much research was put into every other Honda series motor. Hell, people are just now jumping on the h22 bandwagon even tho that motor is 15+ years old. My point is, since other motor are actually getting aftermarket support now why not try them? They tend to have larger stroke and bores, so that mean at least more torque. There rod/stroke ratios may not be the best, but I don't plan to rev the piss out of it anyways. Plus, that haven't stopped people from building b20Vtecs or LSVtecs

So what if an F22 head is the best flowing head around, go build a SOHC F22 motor versus my off the shelf ITR OEM motor , i guarantee i make more power for cheaper. Go take the hundreds of other B Series motors out there that make 190whp with EASE with OEM cams. Or Hell H23 VTEC motors with CAMS making 220whp. Its so EASY theres really no need to be different.

I don't want to build a pure F22 because I want to utilize the stroke of the F23. Plus if I'm not mistaken, the F23 block is just a stroked F22 block (someone correct me if I'm wrong). So "technically" it will be just putting together a stroke f22. Mike, we both know 190whp is not easy with OEM cams (even with CTR cams) without bumping the c/r. Then you have to factor in machine work. Stock B16s can't see that, stock GSRs I doubt will touch that, stock B18Cs may see it if you tune the shit out of it, and you can't really put compare hybrid motors because they aren't stock (and most people bump the c/r when building them). The H23 VTEC can make that amount because of the stroke and bore (which is larger than all b-series motors). Plus this motor is not too common, and I might add is expensive. Can B-series make horsepower? Yes, but limited when it comes to torque unless you sleeve it and overbore or stroke it, and that's the reason why I'm considering other motors

LSVTEC wasnt invented because of Poor LS head flow, it was done because GSR Longblocks were so expensive. No one was building LS motors, everyone wanted VTEC. Problem was a GSR LONGBLOCK was $3000+ from the dealer and from importers, where LS motors were $500-1000.

So someone (Steve Rothenbueler aka Omniman) one night decided to see if he could bolt a VTEC head to the LS block and did it.

Think about it, if there wasn't anything wrong with the LS head then there would be no reason swap unless you just wanted to fake the funk so everybody would go "He got a GSR". Yes they wanted a cheaper route to make power (dont everybody). Since power is made in the head, and a GSR head flows better than a LS head, I would consider that to be a reason to swap head in addition to cost factor.

All im saying is you are looking at this:
Machine work
Bisi header $600+
Bisi Cam $200-300
Tuning
Pistons
Bearings
Headgasket
oil pump
valvetrain
F2D Kit
Mounts
axles
Assembly


Theres all kinds of stuff needed to do what you are talking about, and at the end of the day i would bet money it makes less than 170whp has a lower redline, sure it makes more TQ but any mild bolt on B16 CRX or 1.8L CRX/EF is going to roll you when your shifting at 6500-7000 and you will be severely handicapped with the gearing youll have.

I told you a long time ago, B16 swaps are $1500 TOPS, and its the best platform to start with in an EF. Hell i bought my CRX with a LSD B16 RUNNING for $2500. Sold the B16 for $900 and put a $2000 ITR longblock in it.

This is true to a point, but I look at it like this. Doing any other swap I would need everything except the stuff dealing with the rebuild (and the F2D kit) unless I was going to half ass. That can easily add $1000 on top of the price of the swap. So that's now $2500 for a stock b16 swap to $4500 for a stock Type R swap buying from a respectable dealer (since I WILL NOT buy a motor 2nd hand that I plan on dropping in without a complete rebuild). And that's not modifying it at all. I believe I can put this motor together and in my EF hatch for slightly more than a b16 swap and be able to dust the floor with any stock b-series motor and many modified because of the torque it would be making. Sure it won't rev, but you only rev where you make power, and their powerband peaks at like 6-7k. So I won't have to rev that high.

I came to the conclusion that b16 are good reliable motors, but they are not great if you plan on making power N/A. My b16 made 176/116 untuned the last time I dynoed it before I pulled it, and this was with CTR cams, bolt-ons, and a stock block and head. The problem was this motor was peaky as hell!!! I made like 100hp until 5.5k the I gained 76hp the last 3k. That's a sucky powerband. Cars that made less HP but more TQ would jump on me and I would have to come from behind (that's if I was able to). So I don't really care about max power now. My concerns is usable power. B-Series make good power, but you have to rev the piss out of it and that's not what I'm looking for.

Last rebuilding motor doesn't cost "too" much if you goto the right places know the right people. So I believe I can have the motor machined assemble for relatively cheap.

[r@bisimoto]

While Bisi has done some great things, he has a PhD and years of engineering behind him, as well as unlimited (or semi unlimited budget) of building race cars.

Bisimoto does not have unlimited budgets for building race cars. We build a Civic Wagovan with a d16z6 to attempt 700whp. Not an F1 indy car. Unlimited budget!?! No.

[Vteckidd]

Bisimoto does not have unlimited budgets for building race cars. We build a Civic Wagovan with a d16z6 to attempt 700whp. Not an F1 indy car. Unlimited budget!?! No.

his old race car probably has more money in it than anyone on this board can afford.

Whether it was sponsors or not, you cant tell me he built a 10 second NA car with parts laying around. sorry

[I <3 my EF]

Dare do what you want. IMHO I would do a bored out f22. The differences in a f22 and f23 are 1mm of bore and 2mm of stroke. They have same deck height. If it was me I'd do a f22 block/head/crank, bored 40 over, k20a1 pistons, single layer headgasket, f22 rods and a good cam with a tune...12:1 compressiom=game over.The only bad thing is the rod to stroke ratio

Bisimoto does not have unlimited budgets for building race cars. We build a Civic Wagovan with a d16z6 to attempt 700whp. Not an F1 indy car. Unlimited budget!?! No.

I'm sure that custom Turbonetics turbo is in my budget...or that sleeved block...or that cam...or that all aluminum exhuast. So for race cars you don't have a unlimited budget but for street cars you do??? Because that car makes it seem like you do. Just looking at that build and thinking about the cost makes me want to vomit. All that just to prove a point he can build powerful turbo cars???