N/A Honda people, answer a few questions to prove a point

[bigdare23]

These may seem like noob questions (which they are), but I'm asking them to prove a point. So help me out! (reps to everyone that helps me )

Just say, you have a built LS/Vtec (with forge internals), C/R around 10.5, and the your head has the works (springs, retailers, ...., but no cams)


1) Are OEM cams (not including type r) better than aftermaket cams in that setup?

2) When building an N/A motor, are "aftermarket" cams important? If so, why?

3) Do you believe "aftermaket" cams are a "waste of money" in a N/A motor?

4) What aftermarket part do you believe is the best bang for your buck (power wise) when building your N/A motor?

5) What is the point of raising your rev limiter (maybe about 1k) with stock cams? (if there isnt a reason, post that)

6) Does increasing displacement only gain torque, or does it increase torque and horsepower?

7) Which motor "should" put out more power, a non-built b16 with bolt-ons or built ls/vtec with bolt-ons and stock cams. (this should be a easy one )

LAST QUESTION!

8) A person with a built bottom end, N/A motor who think cams are a waste of money is a noob and should DIAF, YES or NO?

Once again sorry for wasting your time with these elementary questions. There's a chump riding around that think he knows it all, but really doesn't know s hit, and this thread should prove him wrong (reps to everyone that helps )

[SL65AMG]

These may seem like noob questions (which they are), but I'm asking them to prove a point. So help me out! (reps to everyone that helps me )

Just say, you have a built LS/Vtec (with forge internals), C/R around 10.5, and the your head has the works (springs, retailers, ...., but no cams)


1) Are OEM cams (not including type r) better than aftermaket cams in that setup?

depends on the cams and motor i guess....i would think that most aftermarket cams are better than stock...but it depends on your situation

2) When building an N/A motor, are cams important? If so, why?

uh.... YES, they determine how the engine runs, basically.

3) Do you believe cams are a "waste of money" in a N/A motor?

if you want a ****ty motor

4) What aftermarket part do you believe is the best bang for your buck (power wise) when building your N/A motor?

cams or pistons

5) What is the point of raising your rev limiter (maybe about 1k) with stock cams? (if there isnt a reason, post that)

thats a good question.... i wouldnt though

6) Does increasing displacement only gain torque, or does it increase torque and horsepower?

definitely torque but it adds hp too....

7) Which motor "should" put out more power, a non-built b16 with bolt-ons or built ls/vtec with bolt-ons and stock cams. (this should be a easy one )

.....uh.... LS

LAST QUESTION!

8) A person with a built bottom end, N/A motor who think cams are a waste of money is a noob and should DIAF, YES or NO?

they will DIAF when their motor blows the **** up

Once again sorry for wasting your time with these elementary questions. There's a chump riding around that think he knows it all, but really doesn't know s hit, and this thread should prove him wrong (reps to everyone that helps )

[bigdare23]

I edited my post, when I referred to cams I mean aftermarket cams.

[KPowerEP3]

not an NA honda guy anymore, but I used to be.

1) Are OEM cams (not including type r) better than aftermaket cams in that setup?

Chances are NO, with higher CR, you'll see better power w/ aftermarket

2) When building an N/A motor, are "aftermarket" cams important? If so, why?
Yes, more airflow.

3) Do you believe "aftermaket" cams are a "waste of money" in a N/A motor?

Depends on what's done to it.

4) What aftermarket part do you believe is the best bang for your buck (power wise) when building your N/A motor?

Higher CR pistons AND cams, as a package.

5) What is the point of raising your rev limiter (maybe about 1k) with stock cams? (if there isnt a reason, post that)
there isn't any, the stock cams already start to run out of power at the very top end on a stock rev limit
6) Does increasing displacement only gain torque, or does it increase torque and horsepower?

If you gain torque, you're going to gain horsepower, that's how it works.

7) Which motor "should" put out more power, a non-built b16 with bolt-ons or built ls/vtec with bolt-ons and stock cams. (this should be a easy one )
LS/V, no doubt

LAST QUESTION!

8) A person with a built bottom end, N/A motor who think cams are a waste of money is a noob and should DIAF, YES or NO?
YES. FFS, how stupid is this person.

[bigdare23]

Tried to rep ya SL, but can't (I got ya later homie)


Rep ya KPower!


Thanks for your imput.

[JDMjoe]

Im not a professional engine builder but here is my

1. Depends how streetable you want it, good aftermarket cams will make better power.
2. Cams are important, again stock cams are more for dd but make less hp.
3. Cams are where you make power, they dictate the ability to let more air&fuel through the motor. Higher compression pistons are usless with out bigger cams.
4. Here is a guide Mr.KIDD post for n/a honda folks but skunk2 pro series seemed to be favored brand. KEEP IT SIMPLE, Vteckidds Guide to NA
5. Bigger cams can make more hp at a higher rpm than stock cams
6. Both but more torque
7. For the simple reason that there is more displacement 1.6vs1.8
8. No, just needs to be informed
Check out that link to Mr.KIDDs thread, hope this helped.

[bigdare23]

Im not a professional engine builder but here is my

1. Depends how streetable you want it, good aftermarket cams will make better power.
2. Cams are important, again stock cams are more for dd but make less hp.
3. Cams are where you make power, they dictate the ability to let more air&fuel through the motor. Higher compression pistons are usless with out bigger cams.
4. Here is a guide Mr.KIDD post for n/a honda folks but skunk2 pro series seemed to be favored brand. KEEP IT SIMPLE, Vteckidds Guide to NA
5. Bigger cams can make more hp at a higher rpm than stock cams
6. Both but more torque
7. For the simple reason that there is more displacement 1.6vs1.8
8. No, just needs to be informed
Check out that link to Mr.KIDDs thread, hope this helped.

I might add this person built his car to race/dd and all he talks about it "powwwaaa". If that person is so worried about power, why do they think aftermarket cams are a waste . That's an oxymoron

#8 is correct, but it's hard to inform people that are hard headed as hell.

[blown_ss]

im not going to say anything different from any of these guys so im not going to post the questions. heres my .02. this guy is a dumb ass! cams are a really important part of a NA motor, they can give you as much as 25whp with the right tune. a stock ls/vtec would beat a b16 with bolt ons. i have a ls/vtec with some small bolt ons, i will give him a run for his money. i hate people like this that think they know eveything, im far from know everything but i know alot. well i guess thats all i have to say. just tell this guy to go home next time you see him.

[JDMjoe]

I might add this person built his car to race/dd and all he talks about it "powwwaaa". If that person is so worried about power, why do they think aftermarket cams are a waste . That's an oxymoron

#8 is correct, but it's hard to inform people that are hard headed as hell.

That person might think they are a waste b/c cams are better utilized w/ higher compression pistons, but not to say they don't make more power. IMO i don't think oem cams (besides ITR, CTR) are better than aftermarket.
I don't see people being hardheaded, just ignorant.

[bigdare23]

Sorry, didn't mean to sound like that, aftermarket cams aren't a waste.

no no no that wasnt toward you

[JDMjoe]

no no no that wasnt toward you

LOL yeah i picked up on that, took me a minute. Thats why i changed it.

[BTLFED]

Mr Kidd needs to post in here. N/A Champion FTW

[JDMjoe]

Mr Kidd needs to post in here. N/A Champion FTW

Yeah thats why i added a link made by him

[Vteckidd]

1) Are OEM cams (not including type r) better than aftermaket cams in that setup?

Absolutely not. OEM cams (other than ITR) SUCK and will not make power on an NA engine. ITR cams should be used at the MINIMUM.

2) When building an N/A motor, are "aftermarket" cams important? If so, why?
They are THE most important part of the engine. Cams will dictate TQ curve, Low end power, top end power, and driveability.


3) Do you believe "aftermaket" cams are a "waste of money" in a N/A motor?
No whoever says they are a waste doesnt make S H I T for power


4) What aftermarket part do you believe is the best bang for your buck (power wise) when building your N/A motor?
Cams, Header, Intake manifold


5) What is the point of raising your rev limiter (maybe about 1k) with stock cams? (if there isnt a reason, post that)
No reason except to say, i can rev high. There is a little bit of reason to rev high because you can stay in gear longer, which makes the car faster in a straight line or road racing. If your peak power is at 8500, revvng to 9000 allows you to stay in a particular gear longer (hopefully while the other guy shifts) and when YOU shift, you fall back into a higher power area of your curve than if you had shifted at 8500.


6) Does increasing displacement only gain torque, or does it increase torque and horsepower?

Increases both but only if you have the induction and exhaust to match it. If you havea 2.0L honda motor but have an EBAY header, stock cams, and a 2.25in exhaust, you you would be better off with a smaller motor.

TO really get into displacement vs Hp/TQ, read up on VE Volumetric Efficiency. The bigger a motor , the more it has to BREATH

7) Which motor "should" put out more power, a non-built b16 with bolt-ons or built ls/vtec with bolt-ons and stock cams. (this should be a easy one )

Define BOLT ONs. Built LSVTEC IMO even with stock cams will make more power. The highest b16 i have ever seen locally was 175whp and that was with BIG cams, crazy header, ported head, big tb an intake. now it made peak power at 9200rpms because it is a small motor an needs to rev high.

The LSVTEC even with stock cams should make 160-170whp easily with tuning.

LAST QUESTION!

8) A person with a built bottom end, N/A motor who think cams are a waste of money is a noob and should DIAF, YES or NO?

YES

[JDMjoe]

Granted that this is a car in a magizine,(honda tuning) but someone built a b16a2 making 201whp and 142lb-ft with itbs. I thought it was impressive for 1.6L. Would you say it was a waste of money to build a b16 though Mr.KIDD?

[bigdare23]

1) Are OEM cams (not including type r) better than aftermaket cams in that setup?

Absolutely not. OEM cams (other than ITR) SUCK and will not make power on an NA engine. ITR cams should be used at the MINIMUM.

2) When building an N/A motor, are "aftermarket" cams important? If so, why?
They are THE most important part of the engine. Cams will dictate TQ curve, Low end power, top end power, and driveability.


3) Do you believe "aftermaket" cams are a "waste of money" in a N/A motor?
No whoever says they are a waste doesnt make S H I T for power


4) What aftermarket part do you believe is the best bang for your buck (power wise) when building your N/A motor?
Cams, Header, Intake manifold


5) What is the point of raising your rev limiter (maybe about 1k) with stock cams? (if there isnt a reason, post that)
No reason except to say, i can rev high. There is a little bit of reason to rev high because you can stay in gear longer, which makes the car faster in a straight line or road racing. If your peak power is at 8500, revvng to 9000 allows you to stay in a particular gear longer (hopefully while the other guy shifts) and when YOU shift, you fall back into a higher power area of your curve than if you had shifted at 8500.


6) Does increasing displacement only gain torque, or does it increase torque and horsepower?

Increases both but only if you have the induction and exhaust to match it. If you havea 2.0L honda motor but have an EBAY header, stock cams, and a 2.25in exhaust, you you would be better off with a smaller motor.

TO really get into displacement vs Hp/TQ, read up on VE Volumetric Efficiency. The bigger a motor , the more it has to BREATH

7) Which motor "should" put out more power, a non-built b16 with bolt-ons or built ls/vtec with bolt-ons and stock cams. (this should be a easy one )

Define BOLT ONs. Built LSVTEC IMO even with stock cams will make more power. The highest b16 i have ever seen locally was 175whp and that was with BIG cams, crazy header, ported head, big tb an intake. now it made peak power at 9200rpms because it is a small motor an needs to rev high.

The LSVTEC even with stock cams should make 160-170whp easily with tuning.

LAST QUESTION!

8) A person with a built bottom end, N/A motor who think cams are a waste of money is a noob and should DIAF, YES or NO?

YES

By reading some of your responses, I guess you know who I'm talking about . Hopefully that person, comes in here and read your post (and there others) and realize that he just wasted my (and his own) time defending stock cams.


Thanks Mike.

[Vteckidd]

i have NO idea who your talking about either LOL

PM me if you want to.

[Vteckidd]

Granted that this is a car in a magizine,(honda tuning) but someone built a b16a2 making 201whp and 142lb-ft with itbs. I thought it was impressive for 1.6L. Would you say it was a waste of money to build a b16 though Mr.KIDD?

That motor out here will make 170whp/125tq

it was probably dynoed at CHURCHS AUTOMOTIVE which is more of a FLYWHEEL hp readout rather than wheel. EVERYONE puts down BIG numbers at churchs, its a dynapack.

Plus magazines are in business of selling parts for OTHER manufacturers. Take their HP readings with a grain of salt. They are about selling PARTS, not providing well documented info.

It depends what the car was used for. If it was a Road Racing or Auto-X car, its awesome because it can rev stupid high and really fast. stuff it in a light EF body an it will haul ass. Some classes have limits on displacement too so that may be the reason also it was a 1.6L.

But in general, is it a waste to BUILD a b16, IMO YES. If your going to go INTO the motor , it costs $300 more to do an LSVTEC. ($100 lsblock with crank and $200 for the GE conversion kit). Thats if your going to go INTO The motor IE RODS AN PISTONS.

a 1.8L will ALWAYS make more power and more TQ than a smaller motor with the same mods.

I only like b16s in EF chassis, any other chassis is just too heavy an not worth it.

[bigdare23]

i have NO idea who your talking about either LOL

PM me if you want to.

You know who I'm talking about, Mr Cheapo/Ebay himself.

Check you pm

[Vteckidd]

oh HAHA, dont bother arguing with him, he never listens anyway

[bigdare23]

oh HAHA, dont bother arguing with him, he never listens anyway

I learned my lesson

[ash7]

1) Are OEM cams (not including type r) better than aftermaket cams in that setup?

huge negative

2) When building an N/A motor, are "aftermarket" cams important? If so, why?

yes, cams dictate valve movement, which you want MORE of. Stock cams do not have large profiles.

3) Do you believe "aftermaket" cams are a "waste of money" in a N/A motor?

daryl... whoever this guy is that you're proving a point to needs to read up on HT.

4) What aftermarket part do you believe is the best bang for your buck (power wise) when building your N/A motor?

Cams, intake manifold

5) What is the point of raising your rev limiter (maybe about 1k) with stock cams? (if there isnt a reason, post that)

No reason at all. And the idiots who run without a rev limiter and brag about it deserve what they have coming.

6) Does increasing displacement only gain torque, or does it increase torque and horsepower? You'd see an increase of both. But with stock cam profiles, you'd only see minimal gains because they're designed for a smaller displacement.

7) Which motor "should" put out more power, a non-built b16 with bolt-ons or built ls/vtec with bolt-ons and stock cams. (this should be a easy one ) the built LSV by all means.

-jonathan

[JDMjoe]

That motor out here will make 170whp/125tq

it was probably dynoed at CHURCHS AUTOMOTIVE which is more of a FLYWHEEL hp readout rather than wheel. EVERYONE puts down BIG numbers at churchs, its a dynapack.

Plus magazines are in business of selling parts for OTHER manufacturers. Take their HP readings with a grain of salt. They are about selling PARTS, not providing well documented info.

It depends what the car was used for. If it was a Road Racing or Auto-X car, its awesome because it can rev stupid high and really fast. stuff it in a light EF body an it will haul ass. Some classes have limits on displacement too so that may be the reason also it was a 1.6L.

But in general, is it a waste to BUILD a b16, IMO YES. If your going to go INTO the motor , it costs $300 more to do an LSVTEC. ($100 lsblock with crank and $200 for the GE conversion kit). Thats if your going to go INTO The motor IE RODS AN PISTONS.

a 1.8L will ALWAYS make more power and more TQ than a smaller motor with the same mods.

I only like b16s in EF chassis, any other chassis is just too heavy an not worth it.

Thank you sir, i got a b16a3 for really cheap and i was curious about your opinion on the motor being how your a guru of n/a hondas. I would eventually like to do a mild build. thanks again

[NAG2I]

with the right tunning you can make aftermarket cams very streetable imo

[BTLFED]

oh HAHA, dont bother arguing with him, he never listens anyway

No ****. He is a disgrace to EF owners everywhere, Dare. Don't waste your time

[SL65AMG]

No ****. He is a disgrace to EF owners everywhere, Dare. Don't waste your time

so said dumbass drives an ef......? who is it?

[BTLFED]

so said dumbass drives an ef......? who is it?

Dare can divulge the info if he wants to.

[Black R]

These may seem like noob questions (which they are), but I'm asking them to prove a point. So help me out! (reps to everyone that helps me )

Just say, you have a built LS/Vtec (with forge internals), C/R around 10.5, and the your head has the works (springs, retailers, ...., but no cams)


1) Are OEM cams (not including type r) better than aftermaket cams in that setup?

2) When building an N/A motor, are "aftermarket" cams important? If so, why?

3) Do you believe "aftermaket" cams are a "waste of money" in a N/A motor?

4) What aftermarket part do you believe is the best bang for your buck (power wise) when building your N/A motor?

5) What is the point of raising your rev limiter (maybe about 1k) with stock cams? (if there isnt a reason, post that)

6) Does increasing displacement only gain torque, or does it increase torque and horsepower?

7) Which motor "should" put out more power, a non-built b16 with bolt-ons or built ls/vtec with bolt-ons and stock cams. (this should be a easy one )

LAST QUESTION!

8) A person with a built bottom end, N/A motor who think cams are a waste of money is a noob and should DIAF, YES or NO?

Once again sorry for wasting your time with these elementary questions. There's a chump riding around that think he knows it all, but really doesn't know s hit, and this thread should prove him wrong (reps to everyone that helps )

1. no

2. yes

3. no

4. headwork

5. rev higher so you can fall back into the powerband on the upshift

6. torque and sometimes hp too (depends on the build).

7. of course the ls-v, but remember when people build their motors they don't often know the right way to do things so disappointment and lies to cover it up usually follow

8. i wouldn't go that far, but cams definitely help. they determine the powerband and breathing capabilities of the motor to a large extent (see #4)

[KevinT707]

Alright I'll go ahead, stand up & tell everyone that it's me that BigDare is talking about. BigDare & I were having a conversation via AIM the other day and had some disagreements as you can see. The way the BigDare laid out this thread of course it makes me look like an idiot and noob, but I can clearly see that there is a major mis-communication here because there's a lot of stuff that he claims I said which I didn't or didn't imply to. I will try to correct/argue my point. Once again do realize that I never intended to have a high compression motor, if I wanted to go N/A and be fast I definitely wouldn't go with my current 10.5:1 compression (GSR cams). I had it built to handle forced induction; nitrous and in the future boost.

-Yes, with my current setup I think cams are a waste of money because I'm not going for an All-Motor setup; I rather spend $600 on turbo goodies which could yield a lot more WHP. Of course if I was to go All-Motor like Dare then every component such as cams, header, intake manifold, compression, and head is very important to squeeze the most HP out of the motor.

-Raising Rev Limiter: I explained this to Dare already; same thing Mike posted. Although you don't keep making power it helps put you in your powerband for the next gear.

-Dare, you are under the assumption that "built" means FAST (high WHP). I don't think that's true, "built" just means it has the potential to handle MORE HP.

-I don't know what BigDare thinks my "built LS/VTEC" w/ 10.5:1 compression with GSR-cams and bolt-ons should make, but to me 174 WHP N/A for my motor sounds about right.

No ****. He is a disgrace to EF owners everywhere, Dare. Don't waste your time

Hrmm, yes your car is "complete" and all but what good is it when it sits collecting dust for a few years?

[Vteckidd]

i agree if your about running the nitrous or turbo, buying cams doesnt make sense.

if your argument was HP per 1$ spent, then absoltuely a $3500 turbo kit will yield way more power than $3500 into an NA setup.

[bigdare23]

First of all, it must have been really bad miscommunication.

1.You know I believe in N/A and only interested in N/A, so the points I were making was based on that topic. If your arguement was keeping stock cams to go turbo, then there would not be a reason for this thread and I would not had posted this in the allmotor section. Your arguement was "I'm not spending $500 for 10hp". If you would of explain yourself better then what you did then I wouldn't be wasting my and other people time.

2.The only reference you made about "turbo" during the debate was when you said a guy name Peter made XXXhp turbo with gsr cams. I responded by, that was in a turbo car not N/A. That showed you that I was on the topic of N/A.

3. Then you tried to play me like I was noob and don't know what the hell I'm talking, when I'm on top of my ****.

4. I will give it you, you did make your point about increasing the rev limiter.

5. 174hp is not much to be proud of, especially with the amount of money you invested and there's stock ls/vtec in that range (even tho I already know how you're going to respond to that statement). Like I told you before, you have a lot more potential out of your motor, but you cheat yourself by being cheap and cutting corners. If/When you go turbo are you going to build that on a tight budget it too with ebay parts? I hope not becausing being cheap may not be as forgive'n when turbo.

It doesn't matter to me anymore because all I was trying to do is help share my brain with ya, but I'm a noob when comes to honda (roll eyes). I posted all I needed to post. This thread made "my" point.



Kevin.........you're still a NOOB in my book!

[Vteckidd]

I mean its no secret, Kevin is cheap.

Hell admit that, he will never buy a $600 header, he will never buy the best cams. Not unless they are on EBAY.

Kevin isnt interested in making tons of power NA. Even when he did the nitrous he neglected to buy a bottle warmer, a pressure gauge, etc.

I think kevin built his motor to handle whatever he needed to throw at it, but he doesnt have the money or the drive to do anything else to it. To my knowledge he barely runs the nitrous anymore.

I kinda see Kevins point in that he doesnt want to spend $600 on cams an make 10whp when he can put that $600 towards a turbo or something.

but he also cant say that aftermarket cams arent worth the money, thats not true either.

Kevin is kevin, its the way hes always been trying to get a deal or something for free whenever he can an thats just the way he is.

[KevinT707]

First of all, it must have been really bad miscommunication.

I guess so then. You know I believe in FI and only FI so why talk to me about what I should do, such as buying cams that'll get me 10 WHP $600 later, c'mon now.

I mean its no secret, Kevin is cheap.

Hell admit that, he will never buy a $600 header, he will never buy the best cams. Not unless they are on EBAY.

Kevin isnt interested in making tons of power NA. Even when he did the nitrous he neglected to buy a bottle warmer, a pressure gauge, etc.

I think kevin built his motor to handle whatever he needed to throw at it, but he doesnt have the money or the drive to do anything else to it. To my knowledge he barely runs the nitrous anymore.

I kinda see Kevins point in that he doesnt want to spend $600 on cams an make 10whp when he can put that $600 towards a turbo or something.

LOL , preciate the input Mike. Man, you know Vietnamese like to bargain man! You know me too well .. "Not unless they are on EBAY" LOL.

Yes of course I still run nitrous, and I've had a bottle warmer & pressure gauge for awhile now.

[JDM onlyy]

I guess so then. You know I believe in FI and only FI so why talk to me about what I should do, such as buying cams that'll get me 10 WHP $600 later, c'mon now.


LOL , preciate the input Mike. Man, you know Vietnamese like to bargain man! You know me too well .. "Not unless they are on EBAY" LOL.

Yes of course I still run nitrous, and I've had a bottle warmer & pressure gauge for awhile now.

Lol, I think thats all Asians...But Vietnamese are the worst...true. Lol But its all good! hahaha

[Terror]

just my 2 cents.. in agreement with everyone else... aftermarket cams with a more agressive grind are a necessity with an attempt to build a powerful NA motor.

[KevinT707]

just my 2 cents.. in agreement with everyone else... aftermarket cams with a more agressive grind are a necessity with an attempt to build a powerful NA motor.

And I absolutely agree if one is to attempt at having a powerful NA motor. . But that is just not my case.

[dorin48]

These may seem like noob questions (which they are), but I'm asking them to prove a point. So help me out! (reps to everyone that helps me )

Just say, you have a built LS/Vtec (with forge internals), C/R around 10.5, and the your head has the works (springs, retailers, ...., but no cams)


1) Are OEM cams (not including type r) better than aftermaket cams in that setup?
Depends on a few factors but I will just say yes.

2) When building an N/A motor, are "aftermarket" cams important? If so, why?
You spent the money on the engine, rev the *****. Different overlap and duration is needed for high end power.
3) Do you believe "aftermaket" cams are a "waste of money" in a N/A motor?
Depends
4) What aftermarket part do you believe is the best bang for your buck (power wise) when building your N/A motor?
Cut off most of the exhaust its free!

5) What is the point of raising your rev limiter (maybe about 1k) with stock cams? (if there isnt a reason, post that)
I'm not aware of a motor that makes power above its intended redline without cams and other supporting mods.
6) Does increasing displacement only gain torque, or does it increase torque and horsepower?
More bore = Horsepower, More stroke = torque

7) Which motor "should" put out more power, a non-built b16 with bolt-ons or built ls/vtec with bolt-ons and stock cams. (this should be a easy one )
LSvtec
LAST QUESTION!

8) A person with a built bottom end, N/A motor who think cams are a waste of money is a noob and should DIAF, YES or NO?
No
Once again sorry for wasting your time with these elementary questions. There's a chump riding around that think he knows it all, but really doesn't know s hit, and this thread should prove him wrong (reps to everyone that helps )